Barbette Cariage

[Cannoneer]

Hey Zulu, has anyone ever told you that you do excellent work? Great job!

[Max Caliber]

Very nice work Zulu.

[Zulu]

Before someone comments on it, I know that a 100 pounder Parrott did not have a muzzle swell.  This was pointed out to me by none other than Wayne Stark himself when he was reviewing some of my work before he died.  When I made this barrel I copied the muzzle swell from my 10 pounder Parrott that was made by Cannon Limited.  Ignorance begats ignorance.
Its still pretty cool.

Soot,
As far as displaying all of my collection for a picture.  Well it would take a long time.  90% of these would have to be disassembled, moved outside, reassembled, take a few pictures, disassembled, moved back inside and reassembled.
A lot of work.  I'd like to see it too.
Zulu

[Soot]

You could have your own calendar.

[jeeper1]

MAGNIFICENT!

[Zulu]

Okay Soot, here is a pic looking into my library and one looking into the front door.  Just a sample of what lives here.
Zulu

[Josco]

Zulu,

Absolutely stunning work. What size wood lathe do you have and can you post
some pics. of the barrel during construction?
You're tempting me to make a small barrel on my wood lathe.
 
 Regards
    Joe

[Zulu]

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,181860.msg1098884393.html#msg1098884393


Josco,
If you will go to the above link you will see my lathe and the steps I took to make a gunade (or carronade with trunnions).  My lathe is a Delta Top Turn.  When I bought it 12 years ago it was the biggest lathe Delta made.  I bought the optional 24" bed extension and an outboard turning attachment that has allowed me to turn a 31" diameter bowl.
Zulu

[Cannoneer]

Zulu,

After looking at these two photos and remembering past pics you've posted, I think it would be very appropriate if you now went out, and bought your wife an extremely nice gift.

[little seacoast]

Thanks for the beautiful pictures, I want one!  That's a very understanding wife you've got there buddy.

[seacoastartillery]

      I think the new 100 Pounder en Barbette is my favorite, Zulu.  You really out-did yourself on this one; it's simply fabulous!  Mike and I have always admired this type wherever we have found it from Ft. Niagara to Ft. Donelson to Fort Pulaski and beyond.  Just a minor word of caution is in order though;  if you are called upon to move it, by a committee of safety, to help defend the village square, remember not to use those big wheels for road transport.  They are for running back into battery and short moves of the whole within your fortress only.

Tracy and Mike

[Zulu]

Tracy and Mike,
Your comments are welcome.  I know you were looking for a 32 pounder seacoast barrel but I had this Parrott already made that fit the bill.  maybe I will switch it out later.
Thanks to everyone for your comments.  This is a great hobby.   I still don't know if anyone has ever seen a 100 pounder Parrott on a wooden Barbette.
Zulu

[1Southpaw]

Zulu , totaly amazing , Beautiful work . You need to build "Zulu's Museum of fine Wood Cannons "
Charge admission .   
We already got the free tour ! 

[Ex 49'er]

Masterful creations, Zulu!!!!!! Very deserving of a bakers dozen of "Attaboys"!!!!!!
You da man.

[Zulu]

Hey, I won a kewpie!!
Thanks!
Zulu

[RocklockI]

Good work Zulu , that is sweet ! Congrats on the Kewpi . 

[Cannoneer]

Zulu,
I'm not even going to bother congratulating you, because your winning kewpies is starting to get downright monotonous.   So I'll just save this one up, and when you win your next one I'll congratulate you twice.

Is a 100 pounder Parrott too heavy for a wooden barbette carraige?

I still don't know if anyone has ever seen a 100 pounder Parrott on a wooden Barbette.

Your first question is easy to answer: No. The CSA treble banded Brooke rifle weighed more than twice what the 100-pounder Parrott weighed, and there is a period photo that shows one mounted on a wooden center pintle barbette carriage. Now if you're asking specifically about the type of front pintle barbette carriage like the one that you just made, then I'd say that the nearly 10,000 lbs. that the Parrott 100-pounder weighed, would probably be to much for it to handle.
My answer to your second question is also no; I've never seen a 6.4-inch 100-pounder Parrott mounted on a wooden barbette carriage. These were Federal guns Model of 1861, and were mounted on Federal front and center pintle iron barbette carriages.

[Zulu]

Boom J,
I suspected as much.  Maybe I'll have to build a Seacoast 32 Pounder to drop on it.
It still looks very cool.
Zulu

[Cannoneer]

After reading Little Seacoast's post about the possibility of mounting an IX-inch Dahlgren on one of these wooden front pintle barbettes, I got a jones to see Zulu's model again. I figured this wouldn't be that bad of a thing for the health of Zulu's ego, after all, if his head hasn't expanded to the size of Mars by now it's never going to (after recieving 101 QP's).

Historically accurate: In all probability it never occured, but I will say this; I think a IX-incher mounted on this type of carriage (especially one crafted & finished as well as Zulu's) would make a handsome duo.

I know that there are a lot of people that think Dahlgren's shell guns are homely, but I'm not in accord with their judgement.
 

[Zulu]

Boom J,
After a compliment like that , there is no hope for my ego!  
To mount a Dahlgren on a Barbette like mine would require a refit of the leveling screw.  A different type but no huge obstacle.
I do think it would also look good on the center pintle carriage Tracy and mike posted on the other thread.

Little Seacoast,
Maybe you should make one of each for the viewing pleasure of the GBO forum..
Zulu

[little seacoast]

Excellent idea Zulu!  Just scored 400 bf of 8/4, quarter sawn sycamore for free, should be more than adequate material for this scale of carriage.  After finishing the Coehorn base I'm currently working on,  will have to start drawing plans.  Thanks for the encouragement.  LS
As a mentor recently told me, "paint covers lots of things" and "don't photograph the parts  that didn't go well". Sound advise.

[Cannoneer]

Can anyone explain the mechanics of a wooden barbette carriage to me.  Any picture I have seen shows a pair of big wheels that don't sit on anything.  Are these for turning by hand?  There must be secondary wheels inside of the big ones but I have'nt been able to find a picture.
Zulu

   Zulu, go to the stickies above and pull up the GBO Sponsors, then click on Paulsen Brothers Ordnance, then go to All Metal Seacoast Carriages, then click on the Front Pintle Barbette Carriage and then enlarge the lower left photo.  That one will show you how the large wheels and smaller, load bearing hub wheels work. The artillerymen use handspikes in between the large wheel spokes to get the gun rolling.

I was rereading this thread yesterday after I bumped it back to the front page, and it's odd how a person can miss something entirely the first time around then have it practically jump off the page at them upon review.
Zulu; I think you know by now what a strong feeling I have for history, so I've got to make this clear, my understanding of how this carriage functions (specifically how the gun is moved back into battery after recoil) is based wholly on empirical observation (in simpler terms, just giving it a good eyeballing, and trying to figure out how it worked  ). I've personally always been under the impression (perhaps wrongly) that the larger outside wheel was designed to be manually (by manually I mean no implements used) turned to move the gun forward into battery.
Since yesterday I've been pondering the question as to just how a handspike would/could be used "in between the large wheel spokes" to move the upper carriage along the rails. Others could probably come up with ten different ways, I'm kind of ashamed to say that I can only come up with one that I consider feasible. If the cannoneer put the spike in between two spokes at an angle, and placed the front end of the pole against the front of the upper carriage then pushing forward on the shaft of the handspike it would contact the spoke in front of it, thus acting like a lever to rotate the wheel forward.
I don't know; there are some things about that explanation that are to say the least, very unsatisfactory.

[Terry C.]

Looking at the inner and outer wheels, it appears there would be tremendous mechanical advantage. Turning the large outer wheel (which doesn't actually ride on anything) rotates the much smaller inner wheel (roller) against the chassis.

The result is a reduction of the force necessary to move the carriage on the chassis. If you had the actual circumferences of the two, you could calculate the mechanical advantage.

The result is that it would probably not be terribly hard to rotate the large outer wheels. Whether or not this could be done totally by hand we can't say, too many unknown variables. But it does appear to be a sound design.

The one thing the crew would have to watch for, if my interpretation of the design is correct, is that under recoil the large wheels would be spun at great speed and force since they would turn several revolutions for each revolution of the inner roller.

[Zulu]

Looking at the inner and outer wheels, it appears there would be tremendous mechanical advantage. Turning the large outer wheel (which doesn't actually ride on anything) rotates the much smaller inner wheel (roller) against the chassis.

The result is a reduction of the force necessary to move the carriage on the chassis. If you had the actual circumferences of the two, you could calculate the mechanical advantage.

The result is that it would probably not be terribly hard to rotate the large outer wheels. Whether or not this could be done totally by hand we can't say, too many unknown variables. But it does appear to be a sound design.

The one thing the crew would have to watch for, if my interpretation of the design is correct, is that under recoil the large wheels would be spun at great speed and force since they would turn several revolutions for each revolution of the inner roller.

Terry C.
The larger wheel can't turn more revolutions than the smaller wheel.  They are connected to each other.  The outer dimensions of the larger wheel will have a greater spreed than the smaller wheel but one revolution will equal one revolution.
Zulu

[Terry C.]

Yes, poor choice of words. I was in a hurry. I actually tried to edit the post but the laptop had lost its wireless connection and by the time I got it to reconnect (had to go reset the router) you had already caught my mistake.

I'm slow these days, still using the walker.

I was actually thinking more of the circumferential difference. The outer rim of the big wheel would, as you said, be greatly increased relative to the distance travelled by the inner roller.

You built one, so you know. Shove it back hard and watch the big wheel spin!

On a big gun under full recoil, I certainly wouldn't want any of my extremities anywhere near those wheels!

[Zulu]

Can anyone explain the mechanics of a wooden barbette carriage to me.  Any picture I have seen shows a pair of big wheels that don't sit on anything.  Are these for turning by hand?  There must be secondary wheels inside of the big ones but I have'nt been able to find a picture.
Zulu

   Zulu, go to the stickies above and pull up the GBO Sponsors, then click on Paulsen Brothers Ordnance, then go to All Metal Seacoast Carriages, then click on the Front Pintle Barbette Carriage and then enlarge the lower left photo.  That one will show you how the large wheels and smaller, load bearing hub wheels work. The artillerymen use handspikes in between the large wheel spokes to get the gun rolling.

I was rereading this thread yesterday after I bumped it back to the front page, and it's odd how a person can miss something entirely the first time around then have it practically jump off the page at them upon review.
Zulu; I think you know by now what a strong feeling I have for history, so I've got to make this clear, my understanding of how this carriage functions (specifically how the gun is moved back into battery after recoil) is based wholly on empirical observation (in simpler terms, just giving it a good eyeballing, and trying to figure out how it worked  ). I've personally always been under the impression (perhaps wrongly) that the larger outside wheel was designed to be manually (by manually I mean no implements used) turned to move the gun forward into battery.
Since yesterday I've been pondering the question as to just how a handspike would/could be used "in between the large wheel spokes" to move the upper carriage along the rails. Others could probably come up with ten different ways, I'm kind of ashamed to say that I can only come up with one that I consider feasible. If the cannoneer put the spike in between two spokes at an angle, and placed the front end of the pole against the front of the upper carriage then pushing forward on the shaft of the handspike it would contact the spoke in front of it, thus acting like a lever to rotate the wheel forward.
I don't know; there are some things about that explanation that are to say the least, very unsatisfactory.

Boom J,
I took a small dowel and actually tried to lever the large wheel on my model.  Going between spokes and resting the end of the makeshift trail spike on top of the rail that the small wheel sits on, I could make the gun roll.  It was awkward at best and very slow.  In a full scale gun I have to imagine it would have been very hard on the wooden spokes.  If you were in a hurry to shoot it doesn't seem that it would be practical.
Zulu

[Cannoneer]

In my opinion it is a very ingenious design, and like many other well-functioning designs, one of its hallmarks is simplicity. As Zulu said, the axle/shaft is one and the same for both the small wheels that ride on the rails, and the larger 'floating' outer wheels. This shaft that conects the large and small wheels is a 'live axle', meaning it rotates with both wheels, there is no mechanism with a gear ratio involved in this design.

All I was considering in my previous post was whether handspikes were used to rotate the outer wheels in getting the gun back into its forward battery position. I think it probable that they were not used, I'm of the opinion that it was an even more ingenious design, that of the human body, that provided the motive force that turned these wheels.

[Zulu]

In this picture you can see a pair of well chewed up trail spikes.  In the second picture it looks like what could be a trail spike leaning against the wall on the right side of the picture.
It can't be a good comparison, but it is very easy to move my model by simply turning the larger wheel.  I agree with you Boom J.

[Terry C.]

In my opinion it is a very ingenious design, and like many other well-functioning designs, one of its hallmarks is simplicity. As Zulu said, the axle/shaft is one and the same for both the small wheels that ride on the rails, and the larger 'floating' outer wheels. This shaft that conects the large and small wheels is a 'live axle', meaning it rotates with both wheels, there is no mechanism with a gear ratio involved in this design.

All I was considering in my previous post was whether handspikes were used to rotate the outer wheels in getting the gun back into its forward battery position. I think it probable that they were not used, I'm of the opinion that it was an even more ingenious design, that of the human body, that provided the motive force that turned these wheels.

The mechanical advantage I referred to is purely from the difference in circumference of the inner and outer wheels. I did not mean to imply that there was any sort of gear reduction mechanism between the two.

Just eyeballing the carriage, I would estimate that it would take about four revolutions of the outer wheel to move the carriage the equivelent of its circumference. That's just a guess, could be a litle more or less. This greatly reduces the force required to turn the wheel.

It would also imply (and this is just my opinion) that turning the wheel with handspikes would be so painfully slow as to be impractical.

I have seen demonstrations where handspikes were used on other mounts to raise the rear of the carriage off the chassis. Perhaps this was the purpose of the handspikes in the photo?

I gotta go take my meds now...

[Cannoneer]

Hey Terry, I apologize for jumping to conclusions after reading your first post, I should have known better, but it sounded like you were talking about some kind of reduction gear system.
I should also give you another 'sorry' for not reading posts that have been made while I'm typing a reply, it would save a lot of time if I checked what had just been said before I hit post myself; this is a bad habit I've got to get rid of.
Now, for this last one, I'm not trying to be funny or clever here, I actually thought this; look, I know that you're mechanically inclined and that you are well versed when it comes to this type of discussion, so I couldn't figure out what you were talking about, you had even originally supplied a drawing of this type of carriage to Zulu before he began this build, so you had to know how the wheels worked. Well, my brilliant answer for your misunderstanding was that the reason for it could be due to some potent meds that you were prescribed. I'm sorry, buddy, that is definitely my mistake! Terry, maybe it would do me some good if I took something to clear the cobwebs out of my own attic.



"I have seen demonstrations where handspikes were used on other mounts to raise the rear of the carriage off the chassis. Perhaps this was the purpose of the handspikes in the photo?"

I agree; there was a good YT vid that had reenactors at a (I think) California fort manning a sliding carriage, and it showed them using the handspikes to lever the carriage forward from the rear. I've checked for this vid a few times now, and unfortunately I think its gone.