Determining when brass is bad

[LilNewt]

So I am a newbie here.  Getting all the info I can before I start creating ammunition that could be potentially dangerous.  I realize that there is a lot of mixed emotions regarding using brass that is used, especially by people you don't know and such.  So lets throw that out of the equation.  Lets just stick with the simple question of when to know for sure not to use brass again.  Pictures would be very helpful of brass you would consider junk.  I have a basic idea, but want all the info that I can get.  One specific question that could go along with this is, can you re-size a neck on a case that has been somewhat bent or otherwise miss shaped by careless use and such.  Not talking about necks that are deformed from pressure problems, but rather necks that are slightly crushed, oval shaped, and ones with a bent rim on one side and the such.  I am really thinking pictures would be best in describing what is ok to resize and not, along with pictures of other signs to look for besides just the cases.  Thanks guys, I know that there is a lot of knowledge floating around out there in your heads, just don't cause yourself a migraine for my sakes.

[Luckyducker]

Most cases with deformed necks will straighten if they are open enough to get the neck sizing ball through them.   Unless a handloader anneals case necks the first thing to fail on a case is the neck, as in a crack that will often show itself after it is loaded.  I think these are okay to shoot but then eject them and let them lay where they fall.   Brass that has had the necks annealed on a regular interval can and probably will develope thinning just ahead of the web, and if the thinning is enough will turn into case head seperation.   All bottle neck cases flow when fired, and the hotter the load ei: higher pressure, the more flow occurs.  This is why bottle neck cases have to be routinely length trimmed to keep them within SAAMI specs.  When they have been trimmed enough they become thinner and eventually become unsafe to use.  How many times they can be safely loaded depends upon the condition and quality of the brass, how hard the load is pushed, and what caliber.   I  have been loading for ten or twelve years and have never had a case seperate but have had cracked necks.   Now you know as much as I do. Ha Ha

[LilNewt]

wow,  I feel purdy smart now.  lol

[necchi]

  This is why bottle neck cases have to be routinely length trimmed to keep them within SAAMI specs. 

If, by chamber casting, a person know's the specific measurements of his chamber, as is the issue with one of my rifles the chamber neck is .o45 over sammi,,Why would the cases have to be trimmed to SAMMI specs?

It's a 7-08,, sammi case trim is 2.025 my casting is 2.070

[cwlongshot]

If you understand how many brass cases are made you would better understand how it reacts to chamber pressures put upon it when firing a bullet.




It starts with a disc of brass, formed into a thick cup, then a shallow bowl to a cylinder with a primer pocket then a rim is formed. this makes the case thickest at its base, thinning very rapidly to the case walls. Remaining more or less the same thickness up to the shoulder where it thins a bit more to its case mount. When a cartridge fires the pressures push outward toward the case mouth. But the brass's outer walls stick to the chamber walls offering resistance to the lengthening. The majority of the lengthening happens at the junction of the web of the case where it thins rapidly into the case wall. It can be seen after multiple firings by a "ring" of lighter colored brass, about a 1/2" above the cases rim. It can be felt or checked for with a simple tool made from a bent paperclip. Some but only a minimal amount of lengthening happens upon firing, at the shoulder and neck. By far, what stretches our cases is the expander ball in our reloading dies. This can be minimised with proper case prep and neck rubs, OR RCBS's X-Die also works well.

Loose primer pockets, rings around the cases and split necks are the biggest signs that your brass has reached its usefulness.

CW

[LilNewt]

yea the whole ring around the bottom of the case is what bothers me about what I have on hand.  I did the paper clip on the inside feel thing, but cannot feel any separation or "catch" of the paper clip.  But there is a very distinctive ring around the base.  It is almost like it was forming to the chamber of a particular rifle.  The cases are from a .243.  I will take a picture and post it latter.  I am thinking that it is the case just forming to the chamber mainly because it almost seems a different color from top to bottom of the case.  Would full resizing and then shooting a very light load be too much of a risk to determine if it is indeed a forming to a particular chamber?  I know it sounds ridiculous to take a risk, why not just throw them away, but if there is nothing wrong with them then it seems like a waste to me, thats all.

[Grumulkin]

The case in one piece has a bright ring near the head which is a sign of incipient head separation.  The other case has separated.  Run a wire with the tip bent to 90 degrees down the inside of the case to feel the groove that starts before head separation occurs.  The best plan is to discard the case before the full head separation.

Discard cases that have loose primer pockets or cracked necks.  I've run pretty deformed cases through a die and as long as they come out of the die uncrushed and will fit your chamber they'll be OK.

[Dill45]

I've had some interesting findings in my 45-70 rounds.  I've had the rings form after one firing from loads that are around 20K CUP.  The ring is very bright and right around were it is shown in the above pictures, yet I've reloaded them multiple times since then and done the above check as well.  I've also had it happen from hotter loads, done the test, and found nothing to be wrong with the cases and continued to reload them with out any problems.

So I'm wondering if it's not something to do with my case lube and sizing dies.  Because the ring doesn't really form till after I size the cases.

[cwlongshot]

 Mornin'  All situations are a bit different.
  Like I say, this is how brass "moves". Depending on your chamber, pressure level and your own dies and reloading practices. Its quite common, to have what your experiencing, esp in a straight walled case. A straight walled case doesn't use an expander ball to the same degree a bottle necked case would, so case stretching with straight walled cases is quite dissimilar. The brass MUST form to your rifles chamber, how that chamber differs to your dies is how much it has to move, the more it moves, the faster that ring forms. Also not all brass is created the same, some is softer, as its used it becomes "work hardened".

There is just so many variables..

CW

[stimpylu32]

I've had some interesting findings in my 45-70 rounds.  I've had the rings form after one firing from loads that are around 20K CUP.  The ring is very bright and right around were it is shown in the above pictures, yet I've reloaded them multiple times since then and done the above check as well.  I've also had it happen from hotter loads, done the test, and found nothing to be wrong with the cases and continued to reload them with out any problems.

So I'm wondering if it's not something to do with my case lube and sizing dies.  Because the ring doesn't really form till after I size the cases.

Dill

What you are seeing may be from your sizing die , as most FL dies do not go all the way to the rim or base of a cartridge and your just not noticing it till after you fire the case .

Another thing that I have noticed is the way your ammo is stored wil casue a bright ring to show from the cases moving in a ammo box , the deviders will polish a slight ring just from rubbing on the case .

stimpy

[LilNewt]

Was up last night doing a lot of researching on the net.  Found one real good video on utube that shows, more or less, what I am experiencing.  The guy had a case cut in half, showing one where the head was starting to separate.  He also showed on the outside where his fl sizing was causing a "ring" of different color.  I also found over and over that the ring that shows up (sometimes) before separation, is a ring that is usually completely different color than the brass surrounding it.  The ones that I have just are showing a "color" or rather brass finish difference on one side of the line than the other, makes perfect sense about the sizing die thing.  In the research I have also found that like I stated above that sometimes it will not even show any sign of separation and just happen, not that head should not be taken to the rings that do show up.  Bottom line; I will be taking some of the cases and splitting them open and doing a closer look.  I got a reasonable deal on them and should be able to spare a few for the peace of mind it may offer.  Thanks for the conversation guys, it helps a newbie like me to talk through things.  I will post pictures of the cases I do split open just so that others can see.

Also in my research I ran across an article that made me think.  He was talking about fire forming his new brass to his rifle with light loads.  He talked about getting some sign of head separation and such when using the light load, he tried a heavier load on some others and found they did a lot better.  His conclusion was that the light load was not forming the brass as quickly and letting it stretch and such because it would not making it "stick" to the chamber walls as quickly as the heavier loads.  I really cant do the article justice, and probably have just confused the heck out of you, but it is an interesting read.  Not sure where it was, it was late, sorry.

[necchi]

  Found one real good video on utube that shows, more or less, what I am experiencing.  The guy had a case cut in half, showing one where the head was starting to separate.  He also showed on the outside where his fl sizing was causing a "ring" of different color.

 I'm glad you found that, got a link? Because I experianced the same thing, the FL sizing mark. I was hesetant to explain because I'm sometimes a lousy explainer.!
 I took a case to work where my mentor is and he explained, then just like you are going to do, I cut one open. After being able to "look" at the web thickness and design in MY cases, it will be much easier to see and feel for that case seperation area/fatigue. I'm learning that one must be ever vigilante.
 Questions are good, it's part of the learning curve,, and the photo responses here are a great help..

[LilNewt]

Well this is my third try, I think I know what I am doing wrong now.  Anyways, here is the link to the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE0A5IsR1dA, and the pictures of my brass I cut open.  I am glad I did, it was worth the investigation. 

[LilNewt]

I am having a terrible time trying to get the photos on.  Will do as soon as I can get it figured out.

[LilNewt]

Maybe

[stimpylu32]

Newt

From what I see , your not in any danger of having a head separation problem with that brass for a few loadings , the marks that I see are just from the sizing die .

The fact that you even looked at the cases means your above the curve for most new loaders , you did well Grasshopper ! 

stimpy

[necchi]

Excelant! Exactly what I saw on my cases, and I linked to that ammosmith feller and will look at his other videos.

It's a sign of somethin guy's, I was at Cabelas in Rogers the other day browsing the bullets an brass isle and struck up conversation with two different guy's all of us new to loading, and today in the local Scheels, met a guy and his wife new to it stocking up also.
 I noticed the questions we have are sometimes poo-pooed by guy's that have been loading for years, almost like it's some grand secret, it's not, it's just stuff that they've done for so long it's a forgotten lesson and plain habit. Reading only goes so far, it can be so basic that all you can do is copy factory ammo,(sammi everything!) or so advanced bench rest info that it'll take 3 years loading just to understand the guy. Ya really gotta filter through the ton's of info on-line to find usable info to move forward with.
 It's a confidence builder to find guys at or near the same level with the same kind of goals, to share info with and not be looked down at as a new guy, I'm sure glad we have the guy's here that we do,,I trust the GB group..