Author Topic: black powder shotgun? (Read 4234 times)

hillbill · « **on:** December 31, 2009, 12:37:54 PM »

i am possibly in the market for a muzzel loading shotgun,id prefer a double but a single barrel could also work. where can i purchase a new or modern one of decent quality at a resonable price hopefully less that 400 buks or so?id like a traditional looking percussion wood stocked gun.12 ga would be preferred.im not against a kit gun either. been a long time since i built one, might be fun.thanks for any tips guys!

Forestclimber · « **Reply #1 on:** December 31, 2009, 06:41:31 PM »

You could probably find a nice Thompson Center New Englander model for that much or less. Look on Gunbroker.com.

JBlk · « **Reply #2 on:** January 01, 2010, 01:15:55 AM »

I have always wondered why one of the manufactures hasn't offered a single barrel twelve or ten gague at a reasonable price.I guess you can get some in lines but thats not what most of us would buy.

necchi · « **Reply #3 on:** January 01, 2010, 04:37:51 AM »

They do, they call them Trade guns and Muskets. I think the T/C New Englander is a 12/.72 bore ain't it?

coyotejoe · « **Reply #4 on:** January 01, 2010, 04:41:55 AM »

Pedersoli builds a really nice side by side but the stumbling block is the "reasonable price", and with the value of the dollar in a tail spin that's not going to get any better at any time soon. If you keep a search on Gunbroker you may find a nice used double for around $400 if you're patient. I just recently sold a near new double with both barrels jug choked for $475 and I feel that was a bargain for the buyer, Cabelas is currently getting $800 for them new. The T/C New Englander is an OK single. Some of the T/C's have choke tubes but I think you're better off with the cylinder bore, even though the barrel is a bit short. You should be able to find a T/C for $250 or less. Again I'd keep a search on Gunbroker and check local gun shows and pawn shops.
I've never understood why muzzleloading shotguns aren't more popular. There are a lot more hunting opportunities for scatterguns than for big bore rifles, yet everyone and their uncle owns a rifle of .50+ while we see very few shotguns. And while the muzzleloading rifle imposes a considerable ballistic handicap compared to modern rifles the muzzleloading shotgun is fully equal to its modern counterpart, at least those with a choked bore are.

jlchucker · « **Reply #5 on:** January 01, 2010, 05:05:35 AM »

I once bought a 20 ga side by side from Century Arms, for about $40 bucks, in the early 1970's. It was deadly on woodcock, but there was an awful lot of stuff to lug around to load with. I ended up selling that one, and later got a CVA 12 ga, also side by side. This one was unreliable--the locks would stop working after a while, and you'd have to dismantle the gun, bend parts around until the triggers activated the locks again, and then you were OK until the next failure. That one got sold as well. I've never tried the single shot TC's but they're doubtlessly much better. Still, it's an awful lot of stuff to lug around. It can be fun, though, upland hunting on a pleasant fall day when you're not in a hurry. I downed quite a few game birds with the 20--but remember, when you shoot, those smouldering wads go somewhere, and usually land on dried leaves. Watch out you don't start any forest fires.

Along these lines, how about getting a new (or used) Baikal side-by, and some of those brass shotshells. Get some of the correct wads, and load these shells with a black-powder substitute. That might be fun--and why I said Baikal is because they come cheap enough that you won't mind getting them crudded up with black powder (or sub) residue. I probably wouldn't want to try this with a fine foreign shotgun that cost more than the car that I drive. Right now, as I'm typing, I'm actually considering this idea for next fall. I've got the guns, powder, and shot. The next thing would be the shells and wads, and how to load them. Just a thought.....

hillbill · « **Reply #6 on:** January 01, 2010, 12:44:05 PM »

i saw some stuff on the new englander shotguns and really like the looks of them. havent been able to find one for sale tho.guess ill just have to keep my eyes open for one of them or a older repro at a good price.

necchi · « **Reply #7 on:** January 01, 2010, 03:26:26 PM »

Log in to e-bay,,look under black powder,,they can't sell complete guns, but they do part'm out and sell

Ladobe · « **Reply #8 on:** January 03, 2010, 06:43:36 AM »

Just what I needed, yet another muzzy (already had 15). So I bought a new old stock Toledo Arms 12 GA barrel that drops right into my 54 Renegade instead. Never got to try it before the health went south though.

necchi · « **Reply #9 on:** January 03, 2010, 10:15:55 AM »

Sorry ta hear your feelin poorley Ladobe, hope the doc's can make ya better.

That Toledo barrel isn't being made anymore I've heard,,they can fetch a fair price on the market. Perfect set-up,, a 12 bore on a Ren stock, sweet! I was going to see if I can get a rusted-out 1" 50 bored to .62, I think the feller can/will do it but it's low on the list now.

hillbill · « **Reply #10 on:** January 14, 2010, 02:33:04 PM »

i been looking on ebay and gunbroker, lots of new englanders in 50 cal but no 12 ga barrels at all. just have to keep looking i guess.i wouldnt be adverse to a bored out rifle barrel but i am in a area with no reliable gunsmiths within driving distance.

Uhrich · « **Reply #11 on:** January 14, 2010, 03:43:35 PM »

Hey hillbill,

My CVA Trapper singleshot 12 ga worked on this Turkey a couple years ago. I gave $150 for it about 6 years ago, it is light weight and easy to pack. I will be hunting turkey this spring with my Bow and Navy Arms double 12 ga (sure is pretty) I got this fall for $400 (waiting for it to warm up a bit to find a good load for it). Just saw a Navy double go for around $330 on gunbroker.

Ladobe · « **Reply #12 on:** January 14, 2010, 05:51:13 PM »

necchi
Doc's can't walk on water. LOL The TA/Renegade 1/2octagon-1/2round 12 GA barrel hasn't been made for many years. Mine carried a pretty stiff price when I bought it a few years ago because it was(is) still unfired. One of the nice things about it... it turns the fairly heavy 54 Renegade into a light weight shotgun that would be real fast to swing.

Uhrich
CVA also offered an accessory 50 cal barrel for that Trapper Shotgun (just in case you didn't know). MSRP was about $115 for the barrel at the end of CVA's traditional days, or they offered a switch barrel shotgun/rifle combo for about $400.

slayer · « **Reply #13 on:** January 15, 2010, 03:08:44 AM »

I looked for a long time years ago for a nice 12 New Englander with the cylinder bore barrel and gave up. The one day I took a shot and called T/C and to my suprise they custom made me up a T/C NE 12 gauge for me with a cylinder barrel. I have never fired and it still sits new in the box. I may be persuaded to sell it for the right price.

Jack

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #14 on:** January 15, 2010, 07:31:22 AM »

Quote from: Ladobe on January 14, 2010, 05:51:13 PM

CVA also offered an accessory 50 cal barrel for that Trapper Shotgun (just in case you didn't know). MSRP was about $115 for the barrel at the end of CVA's traditional days, or they offered a switch barrel shotgun/rifle combo for about $400.

My CVA Trapper was one of those that came with the .50 barrel too. I didn't spend nearly that much on it though. Seems like I paid just under $200 when I bought it many years ago. The scatter gun barrel is great! Mine has the screw in choke system with Improved cylinder, modified, and full chokes. The .50 barrel is a slow twist barrel, 1-60 I think, and will not shoot conicals worth a hoot. It is not very good with RBs either except with extremely light powder charges, 40 grains or less. $:-\$

Ladobe · « **Reply #15 on:** January 15, 2010, 09:02:33 AM »

Quote from: Cuts Crooked on January 15, 2010, 07:31:22 AM

My CVA Trapper was one of those that came with the .50 barrel too. I didn't spend nearly that much on it though. Seems like I paid just under $200 when I bought it many years ago. The scatter gun barrel is great! Mine has the screw in choke system with Improved cylinder, modified, and full chokes. The .50 barrel is a slow twist barrel, 1-60 I think, and will not shoot conicals worth a hoot. It is not very good with RBs either except with extremely light powder charges, 40 grains or less. $:-\$

Those prices were 1989-90 prices, so earlier prices surly would have been lower. Like most of CVA's rifle barrels your Trapper's 50 cal barrel would be a 1:66 twist. A few specific models came with 1:48 barrels (ie, Hunter Hawken, Frontier Carbine, Squirrel) or they offered them as an option to the standard 1:66 (St. Louis Hawken for example), but not the Trapper. The 1:48 twist would do better with conicals naturally.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #16 on:** January 19, 2010, 05:05:48 AM »

There's a T/C Black Mountain 12 gauge on the muzzleloader classifieds right now.

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #17 on:** February 23, 2010, 12:49:31 PM »

I picked up this New Englander a few weeks ago. It was unfired and I am still researching the ins and outs of ML shotguning. She is a good looking rifle:

I plan on using her for turkey season. I just hope I can come up with a good tight load!

Hopalong7 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 24, 2010, 12:51:09 AM »

I'm trying to find a 12ga barrel for my Tree Hawk in Mossy Oak Bottomland camo. I'm afraid that needle is buried deep in the haystack.

Walt
BTW Larry that's one fine looking NE. I need that barrel too...but I'd rather find the Tree Hawk.

hillbill · « **Reply #19 on:** February 24, 2010, 01:09:57 AM »

wow that is a nice new englander shotgun. guess thats what ill be on the lookout for. happy shooting!

longcaribiner · « **Reply #20 on:** February 24, 2010, 08:23:48 AM »

I am surprised that no one makes a bare bones single barrel muzzleloader shot gun at a reasonable price. Part of the problem over the years has been that folks want to adapt exisiting rifle stocks into smooth bores and the octagon smooth bore barrels are too heavy to swing and lead on wild fowl. Ideally, the shotgun barrel is heavy evnough at the breech to leave a good barrel wall thickness and then tapers rapidly to a thin walled shotgun tube. The adaptation of a rifle stock, means the octagon barrel channel is too narrow for a 16 ga at the breech and far too heavy at the muzzle. The additional production problem is that traditional shot gun barrel channels defy easy machine inletting. Although I came up with an idea to perhaps do that, the tooling would be expensive. Also, Shotgun barrels aren't just a matter of drilling a hole through octagon steel blanks.

I looked into a limited run of single barrel muzzleloader shotguns. (50) To make them here would run costs up and to make them overseas, I couldn't get quotes because of the dollar dropping. I figured a decent perc lock, plain stock, plain furniture and barrel and I was still getting into the $300's per unit just for parts even with a quantity discount for US parts.

I think perhaps a place like Ardessa, once set up with production of whatever past parts could be used and then specific shotgun barrels and proper stocks, might be made for wholesale around $200.00 Add import taxes, insurance, transportation costs and suddenly we still have an item that would have to sell for $450 to 500 on the retail market here. Just a bit too much.

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #21 on:** February 24, 2010, 01:39:49 PM »

Good point longcaribiner. But I can honestly say that I am going to use my New Englander for turkey and not anything else. It will make a great shotgun for that purpose I believe.

I love my BP guns, but when I am crow hunting I want my Bennelli in my hands.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #22 on:** February 27, 2010, 04:35:56 AM »

I doubt it would be possible to produce a US made shotgun for less than the Thompson Center New Englander. That gun was designed from the get go to be a no frills, low cost gun economically produced with the facilities T/C already owned. They could have saved a few bucks by substituting a cheaper wood for the walnut stock but otherwise they cut about every corner they could without sacrificing safety or reliability. It was discontinued due to low sales volume insufficient to justify the cost of production. When last produced it sold for about 2/3 the cost of the T/C Hawken. Midsouth Shooters Supply presently lists the T/C Hawken at $763.09, so if we figure 2/3 of that, then the New Englander would bring $508.73 if it were still being produced today. The only cheaper shotguns available today are made in India and there is just not a lot of good to be said for the Indian made guns.

8iowa · « **Reply #23 on:** March 01, 2010, 11:23:16 AM »

I waited five years for a 49" Getz 20 gauge barrel with a jug choke. I plan to build it into a flintlock fowler in Mechoir Fordny style. A custom fowler similar to this, built by a custom riflesmith, would probably take 4 to 5 times that $400 figure and take a year to deliver. While not for everyone, it none-the-less would be quite a thrill to take a turkey with an authentic custom fowler.

wallynut · « **Reply #24 on:** March 02, 2010, 01:42:38 AM »

There's the big rub. Guys are looking for a cheap (inexpensive) shotgun to further thier hunting or make it more challenging( or just to be different), but with the costs of things going up, getting a good shotgun isn't likely to happen cheaply. First up, when I want something traditional, I'm leaning more toward authentic. I don't consider myself to be a snub about it and hopefully don't come across as such. With that said, Any bp shotgun that is less then $600 is gonna have shortfalls due to compromises being made somewhere such as the barrel design or the locks, good wood is gonna double the cost easily. Usually the shortcut is made in the lock. Which means that either you live with a decent to bad trigger pull, or a lock that can only be tuned up slightly to make it better. There is only so much that can be done to these locks to make them better. Weapons like coyotejoe's will have a lock that costs over $100 alone, only these types of locks are not made for the more "inexpensive" shotguns. The other problem area is the breeching of these inexpensive shotguns. They are made for simplicity of production but not for faster igntion times, there is also the lawyers involvement so the end user can not easily mess with them which doesn't help. I guess my point is that you get what you pay for. It seems that there has been no progress in better entry level traditional bp shotguns (or rifles), in my humble opinion, the progress has mostly been in the non-traditonal bp stuff which I admit that I have no interest in. It used to be that if you were willing to build your own, you could do it. I still have one of the double barrel kits left to be built from the several I made years ago which could be a decent shooter. Only no one makes them kits any more. That leaves building the more expensive models now and most guys don't want to do that, they just want to buy something and shoot it, they have no interest in working on them. Im sure by now that the original poster has by now done something about his wanting a pb shotgun. New readers will have to either deal with whats available or dig deep in thier pockets nicely made stuff.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #25 on:** March 04, 2010, 04:40:02 AM »

Quite true. The Northwest Trade Gun was originally designed to be cheap to produce while still being durable and reliable. Today the Northwest gun is still about the cheapest way to get into a decent traditional gun but a kit will run about $600. Sitting Fox makes about the cheapest kits I've found. They cut a few corners but still make a safe, dependable gun, traditional enough for all but serious thread counters.
These are of course all flintlocks but any could be converted to percussion if one prefers.
http://www.sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/k/K6%20Canoe%20Guns/K6%20Canoe%20Guns/K6%20Canoe%20Guns.html

wallynut · « **Reply #26 on:** March 04, 2010, 11:11:35 AM »

Good link coyotejoe, I haven't kept up on who is selling parts, already have too many projects down in the shop. That canoe gun is at a good price right off the bat taking a quick look at the site. Until people see and shoot a well made muzzleloader, they can't understand the price difference. I do realize that lots of people can not afford rifles like I've seen and owned.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #27 on:** March 05, 2010, 05:26:46 AM »

Well I guess that's the thing Wallynut. For those who can't afford custom guns there are cheap but serviceable rifles being imported and one can pick up used T/C Hawkens for $150 but there just aren't any shotguns in the lower price ranges. CVA did import some in the past but no longer. I can only assume they were dropped for lack of sales. It is a small niche market. Just look at this site, hundreds of posts about rifles, pistols and revolvers and just this one thread on shotguns.

hillbill · « **Reply #28 on:** March 05, 2010, 05:24:35 PM »

CJ,that is so right, whats funny is that when aint hunting deer, im hunting with a shotgun.any.more it seems. but then my brother says i .need glasses. buuuuut, he still caint outshoot me, so im not sure he is that much of a reference.

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #29 on:** March 06, 2010, 01:42:13 PM »

Quote from: coyotejoe on March 05, 2010, 05:26:46 AM

<snip>. Just look at this site, hundreds of posts about rifles, pistols and revolvers and just this one thread on shotguns.

Actually that's not true. Use the search feature, there are quite a few threads about scatterguns in this forum. Not as many as the pistol/rifle threads, but there a lot more than just this one.