Author Topic: Anybody ever try a 9.3x74r wildcat?  (Read 4915 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Drilling Man

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3636
Re: Anybody ever try a 9.3x74r wildcat?
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2010, 11:03:34 AM »
Drilling Man.
Do have a reamer drawing for the 9.3x74R Imp. I like the looks of that case. Do you also have a reamer?

Thanks
Fred M

  I not only have the reamer, i do believe i have one or more sets of NEW RCBS reloading dies too...   ;)   Might take some serious looking to find the dies though!

  I use to have a drawing, but i have no idea where it is, and i have NO load data, but that would be the easy part...  The body is the same as the 9.3 imp. above, so i can always measure that.

  DM

Offline jather

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (12)
  • Avid Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 101
  • Gender: Male
Re: Anybody ever try a 9.3x74r wildcat?
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2010, 02:28:34 PM »
243. no, midway doesn't have 7x65r, but www.grafs.com shows it in stock- norma brass. you fellows talking of rws brass-any kind of public site to buy the used german stock? jather.....
i beleive in one christ, and him crucified&arisen at OUR MAKER'S side.

Offline 243wright

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: Anybody ever try a 9.3x74r wildcat?
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2010, 02:28:02 PM »
Thanks Jather that should work

Offline gman628

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 127
Re: Anybody ever try a 9.3x74r wildcat?
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2010, 01:53:30 PM »
I have an Encore barrel that is based on the 7x65R, infact there's a whole line of wildcats called the Cooper Express cartridge.  Mine is a .338 R CE its a ballistic equal to a 338 Gibbs and is suppose to be based on the strength of the RWS brass (by the way, anyone want to sell any of there's, Drilling Man? ;)).  This round can also be formed from an 06 case and a 35 Whelen, but that defeats the purpose of having a rimmed case for a break action gun. 

Also, having a rim does nothing for head space in most cases, when I let a case space off the rim in my Encore, I end up with .010" of head space, what I have to do when fireforming is to neck up the case to the next bigger size and partially neck back down to form a false shoulder and set my dies that way to keep head space at .001 - .002".  Sometimes seating a long heavy for caliber bullet into the lands will do the same, but the brass can move forward on a hard primer strike causing the case to move forward a tad.

Gary

Offline gcrank1

  • Trade Count: (24)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7644
  • Gender: Male
Re: Anybody ever try a 9.3x74r wildcat?
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2010, 04:21:00 AM »
WOW! The rim does nothing for headspace in your barrel, but, as I understand it, thats not the way it's supposed to be. It sounds as if the rim cut was made WAY too deep when they chambered that! Ideally it would headspace correctly at the rim and shoulder, per SAAMI spec.
IMHO, on a rimmed case it should headspace primarily at the rim thus giving you some latitude on re-sizing die adjustment for the shoulder position.
As long as you treat it as a rimless case in reloading you are OK, but this just doesnt seem right to me.
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
      ><   ->
We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974

Offline gman628

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 127
Re: Anybody ever try a 9.3x74r wildcat?
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2010, 05:35:13 AM »
WOW! The rim does nothing for headspace in your barrel, but, as I understand it, thats not the way it's supposed to be. It sounds as if the rim cut was made WAY too deep when they chambered that! Ideally it would headspace correctly at the rim and shoulder, per SAAMI spec.
IMHO, on a rimmed case it should headspace primarily at the rim thus giving you some latitude on re-sizing die adjustment for the shoulder position.
As long as you treat it as a rimless case in reloading you are OK, but this just doesnt seem right to me.

There is no way on a T/C that you can get your head space off two different points of a cartridge, you should always try to use the shoulder for head space.  Here's why you shouldn't use the rim for head space on a T/C anyway;  If you have one you will understand that on a brake open, the barrel pivots on a pin in the receiver.  Lets say T/c makes you ten receivers, there is going to be a tolerence of + or - ? on where that hole is drilled, now you buy 10 barrels for each of these receivers (100 barrels) and some of them are aftermarket barrels.  These barrels have the hole in the mounting lug that lines up with the hole in the receiver that you put a pin through.  If the mounting lug is welded .002" forward or backward of the Ideal spot on the barrel, then when the barrel locks up with the receiver there will be a gap bigger or smaller than the optimum .002 -.003" gap between the barrel and receiver.  Now lets say on your hundred barrels that one manufacturer makes the rim cut .002" deeper or shallower than another but still within SAAMI specs, now between the two manufacturers you just added a tolerence of up to .004".  This is called Tolerence stacking and as you can see, it can add up to alot of head spacing issues, it only takes .001 - 002" on each item to make a huge difference, now how are you going to cut the chamber of this barrel and have it head space off both the shoulder and the rim, you can't!  Even if your chamber is cut perfect, the rim recess is perfect, the lug would have to be welded perfect and hole drilled in it perfect and then T/C would have to have the holes in the receiver in a perfect spot.  Now you can head space off the rim and have a perfect .002 - .003" head space.  With all these area's having a tolerence of + or - you can see why my barrel has a head space of .010" when the rim is resting on the rim cut.  I could email you a link to the sensored persons article if you like, it's a very good read on head spacing.

I have two barrels from this manufacturer, both with a rim, both will allow exactly .010" headspace with the rim resting in the rim cut.  Now the barrel with a bottleneck cartrdige is no problem, I resolve this by adjusting my sizing dies, but the barrel that is for the straight walled .444 I let have it's .010" head space.  If you read the head space article on a certain sensored persons web site, you will see that this is not that uncommon of a problem.  He does suggest that with a straight wall cartridge, you can adjust head space by messing with the rim, but it shoots clover leafs at 50 yrds and not much bigger at 100 yrds and for a hunting barrel, I am ok with the accuracy.  If I can eliminate an accuracy problem with the bottle neck by letting the cartridge head space off the shoulder as it should, I will do this and the rim is used mainly as an extraction feature for the break opens.

Gary

Offline gcrank1

  • Trade Count: (24)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7644
  • Gender: Male
Re: Anybody ever try a 9.3x74r wildcat?
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2010, 03:46:00 AM »
I have re-read your reply and given it a fair bit of thought, and yes, I have several break actions (or tip ups) as well as other single shots and repeaters. If this excessive headspace is 'common' Ive had it on none of mine, nor have my friends, and by all accepted gunsmithing criteria .010 headspace is excessive.
It is good that you have found a way to compensate for it, but what about a new owner in the future?
The barrel blank should be welded to the lug then fit to the action (or test action), then chamber reamed, thus avoiding as much of the 'stacking' as possible.
Ive read that if H&R fit their barrels as well as TC that they would cost as much, yet none of my H&Rs have been chambered anywhere near as poorly as you mention. Your experience is not a ringing endorsement for the TC, or is it a custom barrel? I can understand wanting to not return a barrel that shoots well.
Either way, for me (just my HO), I could not be satisfied with a chamber rim done like that.
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
      ><   ->
We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974

Offline Fred M

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2362
    • Fred The Reloader and Wildcatter
Re: Anybody ever try a 9.3x74r wildcat?
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2010, 11:47:30 AM »
At the recent shot show in Vegas I got a quote for a new reamer for a 9.3x74R Imp, with the thought of improving my #1 9.3x74R.
Also $200USD was a bit too much for a single job reamer.

The standard will have to do, though the Imp would be nice. Some day I may find a used reamer. ???

All the best from southern AZ it sure is nice here to while the winter away.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Drilling Man

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3636
Re: Anybody ever try a 9.3x74r wildcat?
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2010, 03:48:42 AM »
WOW! The rim does nothing for headspace in your barrel, but, as I understand it, thats not the way it's supposed to be. It sounds as if the rim cut was made WAY too deep when they chambered that! Ideally it would headspace correctly at the rim and shoulder, per SAAMI spec.
IMHO, on a rimmed case it should headspace primarily at the rim thus giving you some latitude on re-sizing die adjustment for the shoulder position.
As long as you treat it as a rimless case in reloading you are OK, but this just doesnt seem right to me.

  IMHO you should NOT resize the case shoulder back far enough so the rim is used for headspace.  After the first fireing, the cases should be sized to headspace on the "shoulder", and that's the way i size all of my rimmed cartridges.

  Headspaceing on the rim, shortens case life and does nothing good for accuracy...

  DM

Offline gman628

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 127
Re: Anybody ever try a 9.3x74r wildcat?
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2010, 03:22:22 AM »
"The barrel blank should be welded to the lug then fit to the action (or test action), then chamber reamed, thus avoiding as much of the 'stacking' as possible."

I guess in an ideal world, but since it's not ideal, it don't happen that way.  Besides, if this were true, then all those barrels up there in the classifieds wouldn't be selling since they haven't been fit to "my" action, I shouldn't buy one, right?  By your theory, each barrel should be made for a particular action...ever go through a gun store or magazine and see T/C barrels for sell, who's action were those fitted to?

I also thought about this comment:

"IMHO, on a rimmed case it should headspace primarily at the rim thus giving you some latitude on re-sizing die adjustment for the shoulder position." 

So you say I should head space off the shoulder of a .308Win but "primaily of the rim" of a .307Win. "which is a .308 with a rim"?  I say good standard practice would be treat all bottle necks the same when sizing.

Offline gcrank1

  • Trade Count: (24)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7644
  • Gender: Male
Re: Anybody ever try a 9.3x74r wildcat?
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2010, 05:58:11 AM »
"fit to the action (test action)", other wise known as an assembly fixture within the tolerances required.
You gunsmith would build off your action, the factory uses many fixtures. Quality Control should catch things like a .010" headspace before it gets out of the factory.
If the SAAMI specs are of no value why do we have them?
If I built a rifle with that headspace I would be embarrassed. If that depth can allow the rim to move forward enough to cause misfires with anything but brass specifically formed to that chamber shoulder position it is out of spec. In other words, it is wrong.
Im not saying this to be argumentive, but to point out that there are products out there that could/should be done better. A shooter/reloader with less experience than you has every right to expect that his purchase should at least meet some critical spec.s. If we , in the shooting fraternity, allow sloppy products and workmanship without accountability then we are going to continue to get just that.
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
      ><   ->
We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974