Author Topic: Range Time - Cleaning (Read 1155 times)

Crawdog · « **on:** October 28, 2003, 09:02:24 PM »

OK, so I'm a newbie, I've done tons of research and finally selected an in-line rifle. The boys in the blackpowder department at Cabela's have been extremely helpful, but now I have more cleaning questions. I understand the importance of a clean firearm, not only from the corrosive aspect, but also from the accuracy aspect. When I had inquired about cleaning, I was told that just good old hot water was all that was needed ("Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone didn't have cleaning solvents, did they? All they had was cold pond water"). So I understand that's all I should need to clean my rifle after a day of shooting. I was told that I should run a spit patch and dry patch after every shot while at the range. But research has shown me that even after doing that the crud will be building up after numerous shots fired. What I want to know is, how can I maximize my time at the range, while still EFFECTIVELY zeroing my sights? I want my point of impact to be the same after my 30th shot at the range as it would be after cleaning it up afterwards, and I'll want to have what I need with me when I go to the range. I don't want to have to leave to go find something that I should have already had with me.
I've done enough rifle shooting to know that I will need to make numerous shots to find the correct powder charge and bullet type combination. I'd appreciate any imput on this, and please, be specific as far as what cleaning items I should use between shot and procedures to use. Thanks.

mamaflinter · « **Reply #1 on:** October 28, 2003, 11:44:22 PM »

Crawdog Take a look at my site. It will answer alot of your questions. You can find it by clicking http://mamaflinter.tripod.com/

brpc · « **Reply #2 on:** October 29, 2003, 02:03:47 AM »

All:

This is in reference to the murphy's oil soap, hydrogen peroxide and denatured alcohol formula from a friend who is a chemist and is getting started in blackpowder shootin:

Read the various discussions with interest. A lot of baloney in some cases and some good ideas in others. My opinion thus far is to clean with hot soapy water initially, followed by clear hot water, then dry patches. Of course, lube afterwards. Crisco probably good for the bore (empirically determined by those with experience). However, for the exposed outside, I think modern oils are the best (Break Free, etc.). The reason is that unless you disassemble every piece, you will not be able to get all the water out of the interfaces. Thus, rust ensues. However, with the various penetrating oils, the interstices will be cleared of moisture and protected.

The question of interest is really what to do in the field or on the range. My opinion right now is to minimize/eliminate the use of water in the cleaning mixtures although a small amount is necessary to dissolve salts. Dilute hydrogen peroxide will not do anything useful except produce water. If it has any effect at all, it will probably react and loose potency upon contact with the oil soap. I have to do more checking on this.

I believe that Murphy's is compounded with water from the factory. I will check this out. If so, it will be more than enough to solubilize any salts in the barrel. The question then is viscosity. So, some proportion of Murphy's and denatured alcohol should be good. The alcohol will have only a small amount of water (~5%) and will be good to dissolve/clean organic residues. Total water content contributed from the soap and alcohol will be at a minimum.

The real culprit is acidic materials in the barrel as reaction products from the powder. These acidic materials, kin to sulfuric acid and possibly nitric acid, are extremely corrosive to metal. Thus, cleaning with vinegar makes no sense at all (it may be conceptually pleasing to an individual who has washed a few windows- but that's an entirely different issue). These acidic materials are soluble in water which is why hot water is used to thoroughly clean. The amount of water in the formula in the previous paragraph should be more than enough for field work. Actually, Fantastic or 409 might be good since their pH's are high (acids have low pH). Thus, the acidic material can be neutralized/solubilized- works on the same principle that oven cleaners work ie high pH is used to solubilize acidic materials from meat and other cooking processes.

JP's recommended solutions:

1. 50/50 blend of Murphy's and denatured alcohol, or
2. equal parts Fantastic, Murphy's, and denatured alcohol

I haven't tried these yet but will run some experiments.

As far as the lead is concerned, mechanical scrubbing with a brush will be the best bet. Have to look into this a little more.

Later, JP

HWooldridge · « **Reply #3 on:** October 29, 2003, 03:48:55 AM »

From reading Dutch Schoultz and others plus personal experience for a number of years, I use a very limited cleaning process and have had good results. I moisten 3 or 4 patches with homemade Moose Milk or Windex and wipe the barrel with both sides of each patch so I am using the whole patch surface. At that point, I still have crud coming out of the barrel but the patches are not caked. I then thoroughly wet a patch with WD40 and put the rifle muzzle down on a napkin. The next day, there is a black ring on the paper towel. I push a clean patch thru followed by another soaked with WD40 then place the rifle back on the paper towel. I use this method on both breech loaders and muzzleloaders and have had no rust problems. Conversely, a friend of mine borrowed a 54 Hawken from me for a match shoot and scrubbed it with hot water followed by Gunslick. I ran a patch thru it after the rifle was returned and it had traces of rust. I have therefore come to the conclusion that excess water causes more trouble than it is worth.

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #4 on:** October 29, 2003, 04:07:13 AM »

One word: Ballistol

Flash · « **Reply #5 on:** October 29, 2003, 05:03:19 AM »

I was just at the range on Monday and used a denatured alcohol patch followed by a dry one. Coupled with Hodgens 777, this kept my groups at an 1" at 50 yards with open sights. I have ground clean a steel plate, burnt some 777 on it and stashed it away on top of my gun cabinet. I will post the results next year. Hodgen claims that 777 is non-corrosive, we shall see.

Underclocked · « **Reply #6 on:** October 29, 2003, 06:14:18 AM »

Flash, Hodgdon makes no such claim - you best read again. The plate will corrode.

Crawdog · « **Reply #7 on:** October 29, 2003, 06:32:56 AM »

Thanks to those who replied to my post. As usual, it just gave me more questions to ask.

brpc - It's always good to get information that is also a fun read. Thanks for the articulate response, but what is "denatured alcohol" and were do you get it?

Cuts Crooked - Where can I get Ballistol?

Mamaflinter - Again, I understand the cleaning process when at the luxury of my home. I'm interested in what the cleaning process should be while at the range, trying to find the right powder measurement / bullet combo /sight settings for my particular rifle. This endeavor will obviously take quite a few rounds sent downrange to determine, and I don't want faulty cleaning processes to interfere with the hoped-for results.
Again, thanks for all the imput from you and anyone else who has opinions on this.

Crawdog

Flash · « **Reply #8 on:** October 29, 2003, 07:46:47 AM »

Underclocked....Ok, you have me on a technicality since I typed the word "Non" and their language doesn't use that word.
And I quote from the Hodgdon website in the frequently asked questions, "Is 777 corrosive?" Their reply was, "No propellant on the market is COMPLETELY non-corrosive. Triple seven DOES NOT aggressively attack steel like Black Powder but, as with any firearm, we recomend cleaning as soon as possible after shooting. Triple Seven HAS PROVED to be less corrosive to brass than other muzzleloading propellants." The steel plate was just inspected since I did this on Monday morning and there is just a white dust that can be wiped away with my finger. The ground steel is just as bright as when I did it. I am going to stick to alcohol and forget the soapy water. I must add that after reading the warning on the side of the container, nowhere does it say corrosive. I guess the absence of that word doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't corrosive but Hodgdon/IMR has a pretty strong reputation and I doubt if they'd leave out something so important.

HWooldridge · « **Reply #9 on:** October 29, 2003, 08:22:17 AM »

Crawdog,

Just make sure that whatever you do on the range between shots is consistent. To again paraphrase Dutch, a fouling shot conditions the barrel with some crud. A single damp patch will remove some of that. The same process applied after each shot will produce a consistent environment for each shot, which should reduce shot to shot variation and improve accuracy.

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #10 on:** October 30, 2003, 08:26:35 AM »

I think I know what you're talking about.

You go to the range, adjust your sights for a dirty bore. Go home, scrub it crystal clean. Then head out in the woods with an immaculately clean bore sighted in for a fouled bore.

I've learned the hard way - this is not wise to do.

Since I'm not going to scrub and clean between every shot on the range I've elected to foul the bore prior to hunting.

You can do this at your leisure, like the weekend before season opens, or even several weekends before. Just go out to the range, shoot a few milk jugs, run an oily patch down the bore, store in a dry place 'til the season opens.

There is some caveats. I wouldn't do this if I was shooting Pyrodex. The residue that is really corrosive is chloride. Evidently there is a lot of chloride in pyrodex residue. No it's not the sulfur that is so nasty. If there WERE any sulfuric acid after burning it would merely "brown" the bore, then the acid would get consumed. Chloride on the other hand can actually go back and forth soaking up the iron, then dumping it to oxygen, then the same chloride ion is free to go back for more iron. This is what "pits" a bore quickly.

I also use Swiss black powder. It has fewer impurities. Chloride isn't integral to black powder, it comes in as an impurity. Low quality BP has more impurities.

Incidentally it's the chloride impurity that affects the hygroscopicness of BP and hence causes ignition problems.

I must give credit where credit is due. This information is just info I'm passing along from email exchanges I've had with Bill Knight (aka Mad Monk).

Flash · « **Reply #11 on:** November 07, 2003, 11:12:10 AM »

Well, it has been a full 10 days since I placed that steel plate on my gun cabinet with Triple Seven burnt on it. No rust at all!!

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #12 on:** November 07, 2003, 12:07:41 PM »

Crawdawg,

Midway carries Ballistol. Type the words "Midway reloading" in your search engine, that will get you to their web site.

johnt · « **Reply #13 on:** November 07, 2003, 01:46:15 PM »

crawdog,
I live in Rice ,Mn.

Your post here states you chose an in-line. If you are using plastic sabot's most of the advise you got from the good posters here is invaild.
The plastic build-up compounded by that of your powder, can only be rendered free by chemical solvents for plastic.
What gun do you have? And what are ya shootin fer projectile?
I shoot at Del-tone/Luth,St.Cloud.
My range box contains "break cleaner" in an aerosol can,Isoproplyl Alchohol 92%,and a moosemilk mix heavy on the waterside. The pressure of the break cleaner is handy and it will clean plastic gunk while drying quickly, Iso also drys quickly and is water soluble,the mm has a little oil init so it has a bit more lube than my spit. What else do I need at the range? Well, I use pre-cut .22 patches for my tween shot swabs and range cleaning,why? cause ya get a big bag fer cheap,and for the Dutch fans out there--their the same! they aint no wore-out T shirt,thick on the sides an thin on the shoulders an belly,just the right size for a consistant swab.
Then ya kinda gotta go by feel,,85 degree August with a southeast breeze,ain't the same as 10 in November with a 20mile norwester! Bore consistantcy is key, yet field conditions change also.
Good thread! let's see what we all say :wink:

Underclocked · « **Reply #14 on:** November 07, 2003, 03:11:49 PM »

Flash, the only thing I can tell you is that, early on, many users of T7 made the assumption it was not corrosive. Some suffered overnight rust for whatever reason.

My knowledge of corrosion processes is limited so I would choose to err on the conservative side and take no chances with my rifles. Your steel plate test is contrary to that observed in a side-by-side test done by Bob Bowers in his Virginia garage. Bob took several plates of both carbon and stainless steel and ignited several different types of powders on the surface of those plates in a like manner. He did not include true black but did include the major subs. Pyrodex was the clear corrosion winner (producer/catalyst) with T7 coming in a not too distant second. CleanShot and Clearshot produced no obvious corrosion during the run of the test.

Interesting that when the ClearShot was ignited, the plate was immediately covered with large water droplets.

I did have photos of that test. Bob probably still has them. After the first several days, the test photos became increasingly BORING.

johnt · « **Reply #15 on:** November 07, 2003, 04:09:03 PM »

flash;
I saw underclocked's tests from last year. Quite exstencive,posted all over the place. He did the same thing! and learned it's not about corrosiveness, it's about cleaning.
Your test has been invailidated because you "rubbed my finger across the plate,and picked up just dust". Why did you put a saline based oil on the test modual"?? Your DNA will now confuse the test results!??
I have seen a finger print "develop" on the barrel of a center-fire Rem 30-06 just because it was put there. My dad tought me that 30 yrs ago,,"put yer finger here"! Locked that gun in the cabinet, an sure'nuff 3 mo's later there it was.
Wash,clean,dry, and oil your firearms for the best results! centerfire or BP, it's your investment. Do what ya want.

brpc · « **Reply #16 on:** November 07, 2003, 04:39:52 PM »

Crawdog: I buy denatured alcohol from the paint section at Lowe's. i think "denatured" means they put something in it so it can't be drunk like whiskey.

Crawdog · « **Reply #17 on:** November 08, 2003, 01:48:44 PM »

johnt - I travel through your town many times a year on the way up for duck hunting and deer hunting

. Unfortunately, I'm from The Cities. At least its the right one - St. Paul! I'm shooting a T/C Black Diamond XR. Everything I've shoved down the pipe practically lands in the same hole, so I've settled on 100 grains of loose Triple 7 under a 295 gr. PowerBelt sent on it's way with a Federal 209 primer. Spit patch twice and dry patch twice between shots at the range. I'm planning on carrying a spray bottle of windshield washer fluid when out hunting. It gets awfully cold out there up here in the Northland - don't need any frozen patches.
As stated, I'm having a problem dunking my guns into the bathwater, so I've settled on cleaning with alchohol, followed by Break Free CLP inside and out. Again, critique accepted.
Thanks to all for your imput and getting me squared away.

GB

Crawdog

Flash · « **Reply #18 on:** November 14, 2003, 03:16:35 PM »

Johnt,
The steel plate is the size of a tissue box and the ground area is the size of a baseball. I dumped a half full, 4 oz Dixie Cup of 777 on this plate and the test area was hardly contaminated by saline oils. I guess if we're going to split hairs, the dew point would be a factor as well but I'm not going to have the plate there until I'm on social security. My finger prints are all over my guns and they are literally rust free. However, I have a Uberti 44 that won't stop rusting around the cylinder face and the forcing cone and it's seen nothing but Goex. After 3 full weeks, there is no rust on the plate and probably won't be for weeks to come. I guess it's a matter of opinion whether 777 would corrode or not, since nothing here has been conclusive. My thinking is that if it hasn't rusted in three weeks, my front end loader will get cleaned after the holidays are over.

River runner · « **Reply #19 on:** November 15, 2003, 06:00:21 PM »

What's all this cleaning business about, dontcha have wives to take care of that? Seriously, though, while at the range I use Moose Milk, on a cotton patch, just dampened enough to loosen the crud, followed by a dry patch, as was mentioned before, consistency is of utmost importance for accuracy. Further out of a crystal clean barrel (1st shot), I haven't noticed much difference if any, as far as point of impact, providing I do my part, at least not enough to miss a buck within my personal range, once my load is developed. Johnt converted me to the Dutch method, and I noted a marked improvement in all my BP shooting. I use the real BP, and have not had any problems with rust out here in the arid S/W desert, even though this past summer was unusually humid. Common sense dictates as far as cleaning and care for all firearms is concerned. RR

Super Rat · « **Reply #20 on:** November 16, 2003, 06:40:58 AM »

What I do is work up an accurate load at the range, clean about every three shots or so. Once I have established the load I will hunt with, (which usually takes more than one range session) then I completely clean the gun, and adjust the sights to a clean barrel by cleaning between each shot.

It does not take all that many shots, so cleaning between each shot is not the monumental task that it sounds like. Then you can hit the field with a clean gun, which will do more towards reliability then a dirty one!

I have also found that the follow-up, or second shot goes into the same group that the first shot from a clean barrel goes. At about shot three or four POI will begin to change.

I don't think, but I may be wrong, that one can really have a rifle that shoots to POA from a clean barrel, and then use it for target shooting without adjusting the sights. With all due respect to the fellow who hunts with a dirty barrel, I don't see that as a very good option either.

I think the best bet is to keep the hunting rifle sighted for a clean bore, and then get a smaller calibre, or the same calibre rifle for target shooting and plinking.

By the way, I find Hoppe's #9+ to be excellent for cleaning the barrel at the range, while sighting in.