Author Topic: How not to survive  (Read 3524 times)

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Offline don heath

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How not to survive
« on: January 06, 2010, 09:00:32 PM »
I just finished a lion hunt at Christmas...client had with him a book that I aquired and read (lion hunting can be full of hours sitting and waiting)...

I recomend it to the forum- it is an excelent warning on wanabe survivalists.

Into the wild by Jon Krakauer. Not an awsome book, but one I'll keep. It is the true story of a young man who set out to live off the land for 6 months in Alaska (summer). He knew the local plants. Had a rifle and managed to kill a moose amongst other small game (it was a .22LR!!!!) and kept a diary of events...he starved to death.

Having grown up and lived amonst the bushmen (san) most of my life, I know how little I truely know about desert survival- and why I take so many precautions! Comming to See the family in Sweden was a shock to the system. One day on the lion hunt it reached 115º with 110º being normal. Sweden last night was -28º with -40 forcast for the weekend. I spent 3 hrs out on the first Swedish wolf hunt in decades at the weekend...and with all the right kit I had to give up. Even most of the locals couldn't function below -20.  A very different world...and reading the books and getting outdoor family in Canada to buy me artic kit didn't prepare me for 1 day!!!

Offline Graybeard

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2010, 03:27:39 AM »
I've not read the book but did see the movie made about it by the same name. It did seem he was totally unprepared for such an adventure. He just didn't have the basic knowledge and skill sets to survive out of the city yet went into the Alaska wilderness alone and totally unprepared. He depended rather heavily on a book to provide knowledge as he went yet ended up poisoning himself due to plant misidentification.

How true the movie was to the book or the book to the real life adventures of this young man I don't know. I got the impression he almost had a death wish from the get go.


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Offline rzwieg

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2010, 03:45:11 AM »
I don't think anyone functions well at -20 C or F! I'll stay home, stoke the woodstove and drink beer.

Some of the locals up there found a pack that the authorities missed. It had several ID cards and money to get back home with. I don't think he had a death wish. He had more of a life wish, more intense life like many adventurers. But he wasn't properly prepared and paid for it with his life.

Maybe if he'd put his inner demons to rest and survived, he might have done some amazing things with his life.

Offline Dee

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2010, 03:45:20 AM »
I watched the documentary on the moron. He was right up there with the grizzly bear lover, that got eaten by his brethren the grizzly bear.
What many never think about is that MY ANCESTORS, the Cherokee sometimes starved to death because of the stern hand of MOTHER NATURE.
The Cherokee, and other tribes EXISTED off the land, and sometimes their hundreds of years of experience was not enough.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2010, 04:02:05 AM »
Some like myself call it the grace of God others call it blind luck which ever you call it , it is the only reason humans have made it this long .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline bilmac

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2010, 05:34:47 AM »
I have spent my life in the out of doors and I know I don't have 1/10 of the skills that the native Americans had. I could survive but it would be an ordeal,not something to do for a lark.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2010, 05:44:25 AM »
Even early primitive humans survived by group, not individual.  Some hunted, some gathered, some made things better than others.  All shared or traded.  Look at the primitive American Indians, African Natives, or South American Natives.  They group hunted, they group built wig-wams or shelters, women gathered fruits, nuts, berries, and eatable plants.  Survival alone was almost impossible.  Even with modern weapons, cutting tools, etc., it is hard to do it all alone. 

Offline Dee

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2010, 05:49:42 AM »
Well that's kinda the way I view it bilmac. I "think" I could because I have spent my life in the woods, and am not squeamish about eating something I might not normally eat, but the hardest thing in these times would be water. You can usually last 2 weeks or more without food.
My Grandfather was a full blood Cherokee, and if he saw today's opinions on what YOU HAVE TO HAVE to hunt, he would find it hilarious. He hunted with a octagon barrelled lever action 22 he FOUND in a Clay cave when he was a boy in the teens of 1900, and a single barrel 12 gauge until the day he died. He too would eat what ever it took to keep going. Squirrel was one of his favorites right up to the end. I once saw him take the nose off a squirrel in the top of a very tall sycamore tree fork. He tried to show it to me so I could shoot it, but I could not find it. He did it with 60 year old eyes, and a lever action rifle as old as he was, and scopes were unheard of then. That was in about 1960.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline bearmgc

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2010, 05:52:56 AM »
I think the group survival/small community survival is the way to go. Anecdotals and factual accounts support this.

Offline Dee

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2010, 06:00:41 AM »
There's no doubt bearmgc, but the real key is hooking up with others that have special skills. My most knowledgeable neighbor was trying to catch stray cats in a squirrel trap. He told me they just wouldn't go in and take the bate. When I saw what he was using I pointed out to him that it wasn't that the cats WOULDN'T, but more they COULDN'T. They wouldn't fit. He never thought of that.
My worst fear is that if calamity were to strike in my area, my porch and front yard would be full of folks wanting a handout, not having a clue of what to do next.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline bearmgc

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2010, 06:11:58 AM »
Yeah, I know what you mean. Even in my part of the nieghborhood, I'm known as "that hunter-fisher girl." Being an older woman, who hunts and hauls the game by herself, and flyfishes the tailwaters in winter, has earned me the dubious distinction of knowing where to go and what to use in my Wyoming nieghborhood. You'd think.... well I'm surprised too. But the important thing I guess is to identify people with "skills", like you said, and also let them know now that you appreciate their skills.

Offline bilmac

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2010, 06:19:30 AM »
That is my main worry too, if the Dems trash the country so bad that Mom and I have to retreat to our orchard. I have been preparing and I know we will make out OK, but how am I going to deal with the folks who didn't prepare? I'm afraid it will be a severe test of my faith as a Christian, I can't help but think of the widow who fed Isiah with the last of her food and then was going to lay down and die, but her jar of meal and of oil never went empty.  

Offline bearmgc

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2010, 07:32:54 AM »
I think its important to breach the subject whenever possible and encourage people to prepare. I'm an old gal and I would help families with children, who have done what they could. Children are our future. This is an important time for them to learn.

Offline mannyrock

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2010, 09:46:46 AM »


   Alex McCandle was a very bright young guy, from the upper middle class suburbs of Annandale Va, where I grew up.  He was 10 years my junior, but went to my high school.  He then became an honors graduate from Emory University and was accepted at several law schools.  But instead, he chose to "hit the road."

   He had no formal training whatsover in the wild, and adopted a "hobo's" approach to the outdoors.  He basically followed the secondary highways throughout the great American West, walked 200 yards away from the roads into the brush, and lived there for 2 to 3 weeks at a time, basically living off cooked rice and beans.  He "learned" the outdoors by trial and error, in the lower 48, where running out of food or water, or getting sick, could be quickly remedied by walking no more than 5 or 10 miles to the nearest highway or grocery store.  Indeed, he thrived in this lifestyle.

   Problem is, that this system doesn't work in the real wilderness, such as the interior of Alaska.  He was too young and cocky to know this.  He walked deep into the wilderness, with his "trial and error" approach, and was killed by the outdoors.  No suprise, really.

   The book, Into the Wild, was not intended as a study of wilderness survival or non-survival.  It was intended as a character study of an extremely unusual young man, who was totally unhappy with the lifestyle and perceived rewards of the sterile American suburbs and culture of the late 20th Century, and died trying to do something different.

Mannyrock

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2010, 09:57:17 AM »
To survive the most important tool is your brain . It must remain as clear as possible and in a positive attitude . Less will get you dead or hurt.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline bearmgc

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2010, 02:38:31 PM »
OK, hands down, this guy was stupid nuts. With all the resources available, his stubborn self will persisted to get him killed. This was an another exercise in what mental illness can do to a person. We can romanticize all we want. But truth remains, that one still has tremendous resources available to learn the basics of survival, to become informed about what to expect. This guy either had a death wish or was crazy.

Offline Dee

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2010, 03:03:52 PM »
I would say his worst enemy was his youth. He didn't really understand mortality. Seldom do any of us at that age. We just keep plodding along and work ourselves out of the fix we worked ourselves into. Didn't work this time. Not enough wisdom to know when to back off, and call it a day.
I hear people on these forums talk about living off the land if we have an economic crash. Yea right! Him and 300,000,000+ other Americans.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline burntmuch

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2010, 03:15:08 PM »


  We just keep plodding along and work ourselves out of the fix we worked ourselves into

  Dee your absolutly right on there. We,ve all done it. I think wisdom is when you figure out that that approach to life will wear you out or kill you. Its amazing any of us make it past 40
I dont care what gun Im using as long as Im hunting

Offline Dee

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2010, 03:17:00 PM »
Yep! I'm a lot wiser than I was at 40. I'm just too beat up to enjoy it now. :D
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline mechanic

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2010, 03:37:29 PM »
I have lived off the land...for up to two weeks at a time.  Every  time I lost weight, and everytime I had had enough after two weeks.  Sorta like those tv shows on survival.  Let someone try it alone for months at a time and it becomes a different issue.

My grandfather was also indian, (Muscogee).  He taught me a lot, but the most important thing he taught me was to know where you are, and how to get HOME!

Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline bearmgc

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2010, 03:40:56 PM »
So you don't think he had the crazy idea of surviving Alaska, then becoming a famous writer with a best seller about his adventures? You don't think that maybe  money and fame, then more freedom to do whatever he wanted, didn't figure into this absolutely hairbrained scheme of a very "intelligent" young man? Indeed, "magical thinking" of youth did him in. But we're talking about a seemingly above average man, who had great possibilities in life. I know a man whose father and both sisters were doctors. He took the road less traveled, and became a wildlife outdoors writer, and travels all over living his "bliss." Where was the guidance for this Alaska adventurer? Basically he seemed to be a dropout from life, homeless guy.... unless there were dreams to become a prolific writer. I still think something's wrong with this picture.

Offline Dee

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2010, 06:24:17 PM »
I have no idea what he was thinking. I have known men that were far more intelligent than I, and could not find their way home if the street signs were to have been taken down, and I have know men that couldn't spell their name, and had a "natural feel" for the woods. They didn't bath regularly, wouldn't work, had no real property, and didn't care. BUT! They were at home in the river bottoms and breaks and could stay there for weeks and walk out looking just like they walked in.
This boy here was foolish in that he didn't have perception, or discernment if you will.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Graybeard

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2010, 07:18:22 PM »
IF we can assume the movie was reasonably accurate (Yeah I know that's likely quite a stretch) then his single biggest mistake and what wound up killing him was he misidenified a plant from his recollection of it from the plant book he had with him. He ate a bunch of it at that and it was a deadly poison. The movie still makes it sound like he dang near over came that but not quite.

Had he followed the old trick most folks are supposed to know of trying just a little first and waiting to see what if any reaction he had to it then that wouldn't have taken his life. That's not to say something else wouldn't still have but at least he'd not have died then of that cause.

Still I think his death was inevitable as he just didn't have the smarts to know when he was licked and the good sense to admit defeat and get the hell out when he could. He just didn't have the background to take on such an adventure. Few if any at that age would unless they'd lived their lives in such conditions.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline don heath

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2010, 08:16:45 PM »
In the book...he identified the plant correctly...but the authors missed it was only edible in spring early summer. By early autum it was poisonous. If he had had any fat at all he would have made it (also if he had a decent map...). Something I am very concious of here is the real hunger for 'fat' from the bushmen and rural blacks. Protien and carbohydrate abound in my part of the world- but not fat. A bottle of cooking oil is worth a weeks work to many a bushman as spring emergency rations!

My main point though is- young man, reasonably bright, took off to live off the land. He had book knowlege, a firearm, and a sence of purpose. He didn't make it. A few years back the two head instructors for the old Rhodesian Selous Scouts survival school ran a few cources. I went along- despite being being considered a fine bushman (for a white boy anyway!) I learned alot- mostly to be better prepared, and the absolute necessity of working as a team. This book just re-enforces that impression from another continent and a very different world. 

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2010, 02:19:46 AM »
Some folks are horses they run head strong into life and sometimes trip. The rest ( few)are mules the pick their way and ease thru. like at their own pace .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline mannyrock

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2010, 04:45:42 AM »

  No, McCandles was not trying to "survive Alaska" and write a book to become famous.  In his last letters before leaving for Alaska, he told his friends that he was going to go up to Alaska to just spend the summer in the woods, as a final little adventure before coming back home.  His mistake was that he viewed a little trip to the interior of Alaska as being exactly the same as all of his other little trips in the lower 48. 

  McCandles was from a very upper middle class family, with plenty of money, and he had absolutely no interest in getting rich.  Had he wanted to do that, he would have just gone to law school and practiced at a big firm in downtown D.C.   (Starting salaries for law associates in those days was about $125,000 at the big firms.  Much higher now)  As a matter of fact, during his two years before going to Alaska, he wandered around and worked many low paying, filthy jobs.

   As to the poisonous plant, from the book I understood that one of the factors that killed him was that his plant book said that the root bulb of the plant was edible, but it failed to say anything else.  In his diary, he said that he ate not only the root, but also the pods that grew on the stems (holding small peas).  These, it turned out, were very poisonous, full of alkalie.   Once it was in his system, he was unable to flush it out, and he died a slow death. 

    He knew he had been poisoned, and tried twice to walk his way out back to a highway, but was too weak and sick to do it.   A small stream he had waded through to get to his camp had turned to a roaring river (from summer melt), and it was impossible for him to recross it.  Had he taken with him a U.S. Forest Service Map, it would have shown him that just a few miles up from where he tried to cross, there was a cable streched across the river, with a movable car on it, used by the Rangers.  He had a map, but it was just a regular highway map from a gas station.

  His only firearm was a Remington Nylon 66, .22 rifle.  He killed a moose with it, but had never butchered an animal.  Instead of cooking up the fat or the liver (to help recover from the poisoning and starvation), he tried to cut "steaks" off of the haunch, and then tried to smoke several large pieces, in the late summer.   All of the meat rotted in about 3 days.   He killed and ate alot of squirrels, but the lean meat didn't help him.

   Why would someone call him mentally ill?    He did exactly what everyone "talks" about doing, but never does.  He acted like a totally free man, in a free society, with no debts, with no chains or bonds, and came and went as he pleased.  People always talk about freedom, but when someone actually does it, society labels him as crazy.

      McCandles didn't just walk into the woods in Alaska.   He followed an old secondary gravel road into the forest for about 12 miles, and then followed an old bulldozer/truck trail from a mining camp for another 8 miles or so, where he camped in a deserted bus.   The road he was on was still in use by hunters, and indeed, he was found a few days after his death by a group of moose hunters who used the road (and camped in the bus) every year.

    We can fault him for being unprepared and dying in the wilderness, but his faults were small.   No forest service map, and eating a part of a plant that he thought was edible.  How many hundred mountain men died in the wilderness from far bigger blunders?

 
Mannyrock



Offline bearmgc

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2010, 06:45:31 AM »
My apologies to all if I made the wrong assumptions. My comments were not intended to cause anger or heartache among any those who knew him. As a mother, I've had to make the many hard decisions, that mothers make, in deciding when and how to let go of offspring, and when to step in, whether needed or wanted. It may be a woman's view that a young man unprepared, could have had help in preparing for the worst, that might be encountered in his adventures, to promote his success. There is nothing dishonorable to ask for help, to sometimes get help, even when not asking, because he was not preparing for all the possibilities adequately. 1 bottle of ipecac and a detailed forest service map, a few other things...additional information, some common sense.

Offline Dee

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2010, 06:50:58 AM »
Regardless of McCandles intentions, virtues, or dreams. His mistakes, of what he did, and of what he didn't do got him killed. He greatly underestimated his ability, knowledge and skills, and now it is just history, and so is he.
bearmgc, if anyone took offense to your posts and opinions they would need to examine themselves not you. This entire site is just that. Opinions and a few facts thrown in from time to time.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2010, 06:54:02 AM »
Don't ya'll hate it when someone cloudes the issue with facts ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline mannyrock

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Re: How not to survive
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2010, 03:01:28 PM »

  Hey guys.  I hope I didn't give the impression that I was angry or my feelings hurt.  Absolutely not my intent.  Since I have read the book twice, though, I was just trying to recite the facts as set forth in the book, to view McCandles in the best possible light.

  I don't think that the problem was that McCandles thought he was a he-man, who could survive the dangers of the wilderness.  I think the real problem was that he was just a naive young guy, who actually saw no danger in the wilderness at all, and just enjoyed walking around and camping out in it.

  By the way, a much better survival book is Jon Krakuere's(spelling?)  second book, "Into Thin Air."  This is the story of how he, being just an outdoor enthusiast and magazine writer, accompanied a large party on a trek to the top of Mount Everest, led by two of the most experienced mountain climber/guides who ever lived.  A storm struck, and about half the party died on the mountain, including the most famous guide.  Krakuere, remarkably, survived, due to his great physical stamina and keeping his head.  A remarkable book.


Manny