Author Topic: Case Head Failure on Pistol Cartridge in Model 92 Winchester GAS! (Read 2089 times)

Dee · « **on:** January 07, 2010, 02:35:42 AM »

Ever had a case head failure on a pistol round in a lever action rifle? I haven't, and I'm 60 years old and have shot them all my life.
Well, now I have, and I didn't like it.
I was shooting a very tight but, tuned Model 92 Winchester clone I order from Navy Arms over 6 years ago, when I got a very unpleasant surprise.
The case head separated about a quarter inch on a RELOADED Remington-Peters BRASS casing. The shell casing held together, but let some gas come back down the bolt along the receiver hitting me just below, and into the lower part of my eye.
Not too bad, but a real attention getter, and fortunately no damage to my eye, or the rifle. Just one of those things that happens in a lifetime of shooting I suppose. A very good argument for shooting glasses, but damn I hate those things.

pastorp · « **Reply #1 on:** January 07, 2010, 03:45:59 AM »

Not on a pistol case but once with a 1894M. The gun was mine but my friend was shooting it and the case ruptured at the head and allowed bits of brass & gasses to flow back and hit his eye. It was winchester ammo & gun so they paid him for his injury. I never did get my gun back but was paid for it.

Guess guns are dangerious. I'm 64 and have been shooting since I was old enough to hold a rifle up. Been hurt less shooting than in other sports I have been involved in. Kept myself beat up for a few years riding dirt bikes. And dislocated my shoulder playing softball and again wrestling. I didn't think much about it when I was younger but nowdays those old injuries hurt sometimes.

Oh well, I just live with it, no use complaining.

Regards,

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #2 on:** January 07, 2010, 03:52:19 AM »

Dee on 30-30 cases that I have loaded several times i use a piece of wire bent with a small L on the end and a point on it to reach down in the case and test the side of the wall for cracks that lead to case faliure or seperation. Would that be worth doing on 357 mag cases when they are reloaded several times ?
Glad the damage was slight .

Dee · « **Reply #3 on:** January 07, 2010, 05:31:39 AM »

I don't know SHOOTALL, this was a 357 mag casing, it was loaded out with H110 to about 1900fps, and although I have had them split at the top in revolvers, (far more 38 specials) I have never had one fail at the base. I tumble my cases BEFORE they go thru the Dillon progressive, but who knows if you could catch it.
It would be very difficult for any metal to get past the bolt the way the Model 94s and 92s are built but the gases will run where ever they can. It blew a little powder debris at me, but other than that, it just woke me up. It may never happen again.
As far as 3030 I honestly can't say how many I have fired thru my Winchester in 52 years, but that has never happened to me.
My main manual is an old Lyman 46th Edition and it's loads are a little hotter than the 48th, but I only load by the book, unless I go lighter than suggested, and then I watch the powder.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #4 on:** January 08, 2010, 02:20:13 AM »

never have dee. I would have to guess it was a piece of brass that was faulty from the git go.

Dee · « **Reply #5 on:** January 08, 2010, 03:09:23 AM »

That's kinda what I think Lloyd. The split seems to start "in the groove" between the case head and the case, and radiates up into the case, about an eighth inch on each end of a quarter inch seperation of the head and the case in that groove.

Sixgun · « **Reply #6 on:** January 08, 2010, 04:30:01 AM »

I had a Puma 92 in 44 mag that seperated every time I used old brass with loads that were close to maximum. If I used new brass everything was fine but with brass that had been fired several times I could expect to seperate a case. I figured that after several fireings the brass was flowing and got thin and then came apart.

Sixgun

Dee · « **Reply #7 on:** January 08, 2010, 04:31:51 AM »

Well Sixgun this is a first for me. I have been shooting this same load thru this rifle about 6 years, and it has never happened before. Hope it never happens again.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #8 on:** January 08, 2010, 04:35:33 AM »

That would bring up the question of is the chamber fully supported ?
I do know when i shoot hot loads the expansion ring expands sometimes and the case you had split could have had the same thing happen then the next hot load could have split it . In a revolver it is not an issue really but in an partly unsupported chamber it could take on a more important role . I saw it in a 10 mm Glock .

Dee · « **Reply #9 on:** January 08, 2010, 04:44:09 AM »

In a properly fitted bolt face and ejector face the case head IS supported. I think probably Lloyd was right. It was a case failure in that case.
I have seen ejectors improperly fitted to the point where that part of the case head was not fully supported, but this ejector I fitted myself.

Jacko · « **Reply #10 on:** January 09, 2010, 10:23:13 PM »

I'm a relative newcomer to Lever rifles and reloading pistol calibres, about 12 months. I have had 2 case head seperations with my .357 Rossi, both cases about a 1/4" up from the rim. I use Federal nickel cases and obviously twice I missed tell tale signs. No gas flowed back, in fact I was not even aware of the seperation until I ejected the bottom portion of the case.

The cases are still in fine condition but I have decided to junk them all and buy new cases next firing simply because of the 2 case head seperations

regards Jacko

Dee · « **Reply #11 on:** January 10, 2010, 04:28:14 AM »

That's interesting. I haven't had that at all. How many times has the brass been loaded before these splits show up?

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #12 on:** January 10, 2010, 07:05:51 AM »

I had a complete case head sep on a 92Winchester when I was working up plus P loads in 44-40.
Very loud, lots of smoke at the action, but no gas in the face
The brass was reloaded many many times, and I guess I had it coming.
In the end, I settled on a much lighter load. Accuracy goes to Hades with the hot stuff.

Dee · « **Reply #13 on:** January 10, 2010, 09:25:27 AM »

This morning I got out to the shop and checked. This brass had been loaded for rifle 4 times. As far as chamber support it is fully supported. I'm satisfied it was time to retire that piece of brass or load'em down.

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #14 on:** January 10, 2010, 11:32:20 AM »

Like you , I have never had a 357 case let go at the head, only neck splits. Some of my cases have been loaded more than 10 times, I did have a ruptured primer pocket on a 257 roberts that took out the extractor on a savage. Had to replace the little ball and all was ok, but it did get my attention. Now I pay a lot more attention to the "feel" of the primer setting in the pocket. DP

Dee · « **Reply #15 on:** January 10, 2010, 12:09:22 PM »

That's true dpe. Not many new comers know that over time a primer pocket will stretch. When the primer offers little resistance to the seating of it, that brass is gettin old.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #16 on:** January 13, 2010, 02:58:30 AM »

When shooting IHMSA i loaded alot , which ment i looked for deals . Different primers seated with more or less effort . CCI seemed to be the hardest to press in . Remington the easy ones . This would be the case on new brass . On old brass i have had 7 BR brass go over 15 loadings and rem primers could be seated with a finger . The same cases it would take a tool to seat CCI primers . Yep as the cases got older I switched to CCI .

Dee · « **Reply #17 on:** January 13, 2010, 06:57:04 AM »

SHOOTALL, I have been loading for years, and never thought of that. Good idea. CCI primers. I keep turning the case head failure over, and over, in my mind, and I keep thinking it was just THAT CASE. I too have loaded 38 and 357 cases over and over, with only the neck splitting.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #18 on:** January 13, 2010, 07:36:40 AM »

I loaded many cases that had slight splits in them and used them for pratice . The 30-30 was famous for incepid (sp) seperations and we were very careful with checking them . For what its worth I agree it was most likely a bad case .

Sweetwater · « **Reply #19 on:** January 13, 2010, 04:48:07 PM »

Thanks for sharing, Dee. My concern is always the gas - where will it go, will it go where it's suppossed to. I had a head seperation with my Marlin 1894 41Mag. Top load in my Blackhawk, but was too much in the Marlin. I didn't get any gas blowback.

My Dad was playing with light loads in his 257Roberts Rem722. An improper choice of powder blew the side of the boltface at the extractor, and the gases exited down through the magazine. He was always concerned about case faliures and never wanted me to have a levergun. I've since inherited the two family heirlooms, a '73 from great-grandfather and a '94 from grandfather, and purchased 3 of my own. An '86 in 40-82, a BB94 in 356W, and the afore-mentioned Marlin in 41Mag.

Regards,
Sweetwater

454Puma · « **Reply #20 on:** January 13, 2010, 06:29:03 PM »

Yep I had a 454 Casull case split in two ! Right in the middle of the case-bad brass! I didn't get any blow back -sounded kind a weid, but didn't know it until I tried to lever another round-the upper half was stuck in the chamber!

yukondog · « **Reply #21 on:** January 26, 2010, 05:46:37 PM »

Same here I'v had 4 case failure all have been R-P brass more than likeley loaded one time to many.

Dee · « **Reply #22 on:** February 18, 2010, 03:56:40 PM »

I had another case head failure today with the same brass from Remington same loading also. Fire 4 rounds and the SURPRISE!

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #23 on:** February 18, 2010, 04:09:03 PM »

Sounds like a bad lot of brass Remington has/had. Everything OK with you and gun? DP

Sweetwater · « **Reply #24 on:** February 18, 2010, 04:16:32 PM »

Sounds like it, DP. I've always had good luck with Remington, but I've know guys who did not.

Regards,
Sweetwater

teamnelson · « **Reply #25 on:** February 18, 2010, 04:43:29 PM »

Gents, I'm paying real close attention to this thread and I'm a bit alarmed. Dee, I appreciate you bringing it up. I eyeball my brass pretty well but doing this solo, I gotta admit I'm not certain what I'm looking for. I only just started reloading in the last year, specifically .38/.357 and .44, to use in 92 clones and smith/taurus revolvers. I'm recycling factory brass, as well as some brass I've traded for here on GBO so I don't know the count on those. I test all my batches in my contender .357 max - figure that's the most stout and closed action I've got - and so far just had one squib; I avoid the max from the manuals.

Could y'all post a picture of bad brass? I'm going to try the paper clip trick.

Dee · « **Reply #26 on:** February 18, 2010, 05:45:04 PM »

TN, I have so much 357 mag brass I would never be able to separate it. All I know is that it is BRASS, and it is Remington-Peters brass. From now on I will wear glasses when I am shooting their BRASS casings. Here is a picture of the last one that failed. It could have been new, or almost new, I don't know. It fails in the small ring between the rim and the case body. I layed a pen on the area failed in the pic to show the general area. It is nothing obvious, and probably impossible to detect but, it will let you know when it fails with a jet of gas to the eye. No debris other than a little gun oil.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #27 on:** February 19, 2010, 03:55:58 AM »

I loaded about 350 38 spl. yesterday . Its the first 38 spl. I have loaded in years . Some brass is over 20 years old . No telling at this point and after 2 moves how many reloading some have gone thru. Any way i noticed when sizing some split about middle of the case long way . some split at mouth and tried to over lap. Not more than 6-7 cases but it was the first time i noticed splits in the middle going long ways . Have had several going around the case before . Brass was mixed .

Dee · « **Reply #28 on:** February 19, 2010, 04:00:13 AM »

Well, I have decided that anytime I shoot the Remington 357 mag BRASS casings, I will discard them, and will only shot them wearing glasses. They so far, seem to be the only ones doing this with just two, in 40 years of shooting 357mag and 38 special.
The loads are hot, but not past maximum, and the case head seperation is not typical in this round, but consistant in location, and brand of BRASS.

Sweetwater · « **Reply #29 on:** February 19, 2010, 08:26:41 AM »

Location and Brand are good indicators of trend, even if only two over time. It will make me mindfull.

I get lengthwise splits more often than circumference splits. Mostly in higher pressure loads in older brass. Never been a problem and I chuck 'em when they split. I may do different now with Dee's experience.

Regards,
Sweetwater