The 30-30 in Combat

[Dee]

In the Civil War pistols and bowies were often tossed into the weeds because they were heavy and useless.

As I recall reading, pistols were used A LOT by the Calvary, by carrying extra cylinders that were preloaded, and used much like speed loaders. Thus the term "HORSE PISTOL". EXTRA LOADED PISTOLS were often carried in saddle HOLSTERS for quick access and a quick 5 or 6 more shots. They were easy to control and one handed in shooting while trying to navigate and control a horse in battle.
Discard a knife of ANY KIND, especially when armed with a single shot rifle, and usually a muzzle loader? Where is that recorded.

[Swampman]

I've studied the Civil War for over 30 years.  For probably 15 of those years on a daily basis.  Cavalry did use pistols.  Officers sometimes carried them.  The better reenactment units do not allow knives or pistols for infantry because of the data indicating they were tossed aside or sent home.  Romance aside they fought in formation as did Napolean.

There was a common saying during the war.  "Whoever saw a dead Cavalrymen."  They were not highly respected and thought to avoid a fight when they could.  There were exceptions.

[Old Grizz]

Sorry guys, with all that I have read here I'm still not convinced a lever is a good combat rifle. I guess what I'm comparing this to is my time spent in Nam. I doubt I would be here today if I used a 336. Don't get me wrong I have 18 leverguns and hunt almost always with one but I can't see using one in combat. The government issued some during the second world war but we all know the government sometimes hasen't a clue. Even for self-defence, give me 12ga any time pump or semi.

[Keith L]

Self/home defense a rifle is the last thing you need.  Range is short, and reaction time is shorter.  Pistol or shotgun are better.  Combat is different, with longer range shots necessary.  If I have 20 yards I will take my Marlin.  Inside ten give me my Glock.

[Swampman]

Most people can't hit a barn with a pistol.  IMO a carbine or a shotgun is better for 95% of those who would chose to fight or defend.

[Keith L]

If you have someone running at you from 10 yards or less you will never have the time to aim.  Maybe you can use your rifle as a club.

[LEO]

I guess it depends on what type of combat you are talking about, I don't know that I would want to go into a pitched military battle with it.  But for use in law enforcement or as a defensive rifle the 30-30 is a fine choice, I have made many posts about it.  I carried one as a patrol carbine back before the term was coined and would be carrying one today if it were not for agency policy.  They carry great, have sufficent ammo capacity, can be reloaded without taking the rifle out of battery, are lively in the hands, point well and provide more than adequate accuracy for the task at hand, the cartridge has sufficent power without excessive recoil or blast, has adequate penetration to defeat intermediate cover but still expands to provide good stopping ability (this can be a two edged sword).  I actually prefered the 30-30 to the AR-15 that my agency now issues for many uses, I know there are those who are crying blastphemy and herasy but it is true, keep in mind, I am speaking in a law enfocement context (in a rural enviroment) not in the context of the infantryman.  The 30-30 is easier to get through thick stuff with as it has fewer projections to catch vines and limbs, it is better balance for carrying one handed, and has fewer projections to poke you when the rifle is slung, it is a natural on horseback  (obviously) where the AR is cumbersome at best. I guess one way of putting it is the North Hollywood shootout from a few years ago would be nothing more than a footnote if the first responding officer had an "obsolete" 94 Winchester (or any other rifle for that matter) in the vehicle and had used it decisively.

[Siskiyou]

I was given a fair amount of training by some good range officers on using a rifle, and shotgun at close range from the hip.  I rather enjoyed the training, it is a far better alternative than handing the weapon to the bad guy when you swing it as a club.  You are likely to break the stock and disable the weapon.

In fact thanks for reminding me, the next time I go out and do some combat training, I will shoot some old shotgun shells from the waist.  In this case I am talking about a double with 26-inch barrels what makes for a short shotgun.  When held at the side approximately 13-inches is behind the centerline of the body.  Admittedly better from a defensive position than an offensive position inside a residence.

Agreed a rifle or shotguns with rifle slugs would have made a difference in N. Hollywood.  First round in my 870 was buckshot followed by slugs.

[kwells2006]

alot of people dont know that some 94 winchesters were actually issued to troops in wwII

yep, to them boys up in the Allutians

[mechanic]

Those fella's in N. Hollywood would have been better served with a 22lr than the 9mm's they had.  I find it hard to believe an entire police force was armed only with handguns....Andy Taylor had better than that up in Mayberry.

I betcha' them boys have some long guns strapped beside them now.......at least I hope so.

[Swampman]

If you have someone running at you from 10 yards or less you will never have the time to aim.  Maybe you can use your rifle as a club.

At 10 yard I can hit their belt buckle without aiming.

[Dee]

After the INFAMOUS North Hollywood shoot out we used the lessons learned as a training film of WHAT NOT TO DO.
The result of North Hollywood was more about miserable tactics than fire power. Most ALL patrol vehicle involved in the affray had a pump shotgun IN THE TRUNK. These officers seldom done more than qualify with the shotgun every year. They didn't train with it, and their training kicked in. They left it in the trunk.
Take note that several thousand rounds were fired by everyone, BUT! Only I believe eleven officers were actually hit, and all survived. One perp killed HIMSELF with a head shot, and the other bled to death from a leg wound by a tactical officer with the presence of mind to shoot him of all places. IN THE LEG.
In such an event the proper method of CONTROL is to CONTAIN. A shotgun to the legs was more than enough, in that case to contain the threat, and that's the gist of the matter.
Someone here said he would take the shotgun for home defense. Wise choice. It's what I have always chosen, and I have seen the shotgun used MANY TIMES by others. It is very effective at room distances, and always, ALWAYS. Decisive. Some may THINK what is best but, I have SEEN what is best first hand, no games, no drills, not training, no FANTASIZING. The real deal, and all the heartache that follows.
I taught shotgun fighting, to officers, and SWAT, and I taught winning with a shotgun, and it was far more involved than standing back and shooting silhouettes from the hip.
Everyone pretty much knows my long association with the 3030, but read closely what LEO had to say about the 3030 vs the AR15. What he says is true. I have PERSONALLY used "both" A LOT, in the environment he described. In those days (mid 70s to mid 80s) in the Red River Bottoms of the Oklahoma-Texas border, I was not hunting deer.
As someone else said concerning Vietnam and the 3030, and I agree. This thread is not about Vietnam. It is more or less about HOME, and protecting one's self and family. I for one don't NEED an M16, but I NEED a 3030, and it can, and HAS served BOTH PURPOSES. Hunting game, hunting men, and protection.
I will also add, that if trouble does show up and my shotgun ain't handy, and neither is my pistol, but my 3030, and M4 ARE. I will grab the M4. It would be foolish not to. JM2CW  .

[S.S.]

In the Civil War pistols and bowies were often tossed into the weeds because they were heavy and useless.

??!
Handguns were one of the first Items picked up
on the battlefield after the fight! as were tobacco tins, sugar and salt.
I too have studied the American civil war and the Revolutionary
war extensively and I have not found reference to either side
throwing away their weapons unless during a running retreat.

[Keith L]

If you have someone running at you from 10 yards or less you will never have the time to aim.  Maybe you can use your rifle as a club.

At 10 yard I can hit their belt buckle without aiming.

We will have to let the NRA know that you are the exception to the rules they teach in their Personal Protection training. 

[dpastordan]

An interesting discussion.  What I find even more interesting is that the Russians' AK 47 round is similar to the .30-30 in power (though a lighter 123 grain or 154 grain bullet as opposed to the 150/170 gr of the .30-30).  A lot of soldiers in Vietnam would pick up the AK's and use them as they seem to hit harder at longer distances that the 5.56 round.  Also, in Mexico at the turn of the century would us the .30-30s in their various revolutions. 

Situation and economics for a lot of us will determine the home defense weapon.  Shotguns are the most economical (and easier to own in many states that are anti-gun or anti-handgun) and the most common firearm.  The .30-30 is still a popular rifle (partly because of price) and thus a lot of homes will have them.  Ammo is comparatively cheaper than most other cartridges.  In a militia type role, it may be useful (if the country falls apart) provided the user is familiar with it.  As far us AR's, I would rather have an AK type of firearm.  They are cheaper (I bought a Saiga for about $300 which costs far less than a typical AR variant and used the difference to buy ammo). 

If I were to go .30-30, I would get a youth model and put a peep sight on it...that is all the modification I would need.  (I used a 94 Ranger Youth model for years on deer and hog...fast, low recoil, and gets the job done!)

[45-70.gov]

there  are  better  guns  for  combat

but  they  are  not  a lot  better

no one  armed  with  a 30-30  is  poorly  armed

and  can  kill  any one with a better  gun  and  take  it

better  to get  better  with  the gun  you  are  good  with
than  start  over  learning  a ''better'' gun

knowing your  gun  is more  important  than  your gun

[Lloyd Smale]

it was a sideline on a gun show once on vs. They said that suplys of m1s were getting short so they issued some to stateside guard and reserve units some appartently made the trip accorss the pond but i dont know if any were actually used in combat. 

alot of people dont know that some 94 winchesters were actually issued to troops in wwII

I would like to learn more about that. Any more info available?

Cheese

[efremtags]

from a few recent history shows I have seen on the evolution of firearms, I don't believe the US has ever issued a lever gun to it's troops. They jumped from single shot straight to bolt guns.  It was something like, trapdoor, Krag, Springfield, M1, M14,M16. I may have missed one, but I think I got the brunt of the last 125 years.

 lever gun for a homeowner in a pistol caliber is good medicine. The 357 will have a lot more power, is easier to control and holds plenty of rounds for self defense. You should not need more for self defense.

A rifle caliber makes less sense as it is too much power for indoor use. I don't think any court of law is going to believe you need to shoot 100-200 yards in the vast majority of self-defense cases and allow you to make the claim you feel threatened. Distance offers security and diminishes your legal validity to use deadly force.

For military use, the lever almost made sense 100+ years ago, but a couple of german brothers invented a superior weapon, that can be easily recharged and fired from prone. It could also safely use spitzer bullets instead of just blunt nose ammo nd wield a bayonet. I am not sure if there design will stick though . 

[Duane]

Man what a discussion .I saw a show and thought wow .They where using some tricked out lever guns to clear a house including light rails ,a little much if you ask me but hey im a meat and potatoes man. I think a standard 336 or 94 in 3030 will make a heck of a SHTF rifle in the right hands of course so will the AR .Ive seen alot of cowboy action shooting you ever see them boys reload a lever gun .makes John Wayne look slow .Never been much on those Black rifles but to each his own as long as a man shoots something he okay with me . They make a short through lever for any of the more popular leverguns so the cycling wouldnt be as slow as factory chambering and wiath a little stoning and honing man a sweet battle rifle one could have . A sleeper in a deer rifle and just think how it would look to a jury compared to one of those ASSAULT type rifles .Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Dee]

Well Duane, I really can't disagree with you. My Winchester would be the last to go in sell off. It ain't perfect, but it ain't bad.

[bcp]

alot of people dont know that some 94 winchesters were actually issued to troops in wwII

Probably many members of the Alaska Territorial Guard carried personal 30-30's. I've seen them in photos.   Apparently they were issued a M1917 rifle and only 20 rounds.

http://books.google.com/books?id=p01bFVagOJYC&pg=PA411&lpg=PA411#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Bruce

[243dave]

I believe a man with a 30-30 is a well armed man.  A 30-30 trapper loaded with 110 V-maxes will keep you from killing a home intruder and someone in another room.  The trapper is shorter than most tactical shotguns and when loaded properly can be used inside your home with not much worry of overpenetration.  As for combat for a US soldier it is lacking.  The biggest problem like efremtags mentioned is that it is hard to use from the prone.  Also the trajectory of the 30-30 for a soldier will fall a bit short for some of the terrain that they now fight in.  In my opinion when fighting in urban situations I'd much rather have my trapper than any of my pistols.  But if given a chance I'll get my AR before anything.  Why ??  Because I ate, slept and trained with one for nine years and I'm so familiar with it I know I can hit a man at 50 meters without aiming(I hit targets all the time training with chemical masks on without the aid of my pac-4's).  For a LEO a 30-30 levergun(especially a trapper) would be a great firearm and if he is as familiar with his levergun as I am with my AR he could take care of two bad guys robbing a bank carrying AK's in bodyarmour.     Dave    

[454Puma]

Though I wouldn't hesitate to use a 30-30 Lever for HD!! If I have a choice and time I'll pick up either my Marlin 94 in 357 Mag or Puma 454 ! Both give me 10+1 Rounds  and out of a Lever are both devisating at SD ranges!     If I use 38 Sp or 45 LC I get 11+1 and loose nothing in stopping power!

[K9-Handler]

Lots of different topics under one banner! 

There's all kinds of combat and conditions.  In a jungle, something like an AR rules.  Open desert, then something heavier like an M14 might be the ticket.  In European woods, a lever or bolt would rule.
Hell, where I was in 'Nam the terrain was more like Arizona or New Mexico than jungle.  You can't deal in generalities.

Home defense?  Give me a pump 12 ga. in anything from 4-ought to #2, but probably not double-ought.  Too much chance for wall penetration.
Besides, I'm surprised it isn't mentioned here.  The BEST home defense is racking the slide on a pump!    If the perp doesn't get the audible message, than the lead one follows.  Just one "SNACK-SNACK" from the top of the stairs will probably be followed by the sound of beating feet.  Unless there are drugs involved, of course.

[Old Grizz]

Lots of different topics under one banner! 

There's all kinds of combat and conditions.  In a jungle, something like an AR rules.  Open desert, then something heavier like an M14 might be the ticket.  In European woods, a lever or bolt would rule.
Hell, where I was in 'Nam the terrain was more like Arizona or New Mexico than jungle.  You can't deal in generalities.

Home defense?  Give me a pump 12 ga. in anything from 4-ought to #2, but probably not double-ought.  Too much chance for wall penetration.
Besides, I'm surprised it isn't mentioned here.  The BEST home defense is racking the slide on a pump!    If the perp doesn't get the audible message, than the lead one follows.  Just one "SNACK-SNACK" from the top of the stairs will probably be followed by the sound of beating feet.  Unless there are drugs involved, of course.





THANKYOU!!!!!!!!!

[w30wcf]

Interesting thread. It reminded me of the role the .30-30 M94 Winchester played in arming the Pacific Coast Militia Rangers.

http://www.rarewinchesters.com/gunroom/1894/M94-1331722/1894%20PCMR%20Article%201.pdf

http://www.rarewinchesters.com/gunroom/1894/M94-1331722/1894%20PCMR%20Article%202.pdf

w30wcf

[bilmac]

I spent too many years doing boat patrols on the lower Colo river. I wanted to take a long gun and a shotgun would have been worthless if standoff distances were involved. Our outfit came into some M-16s so I mounted one in our boat. Had to be in the open, it was a center console saltwater boat with almost no storage space.

Them southern Californians gave us He-- every stop we made about us needing "machine guns". Then I found a couple of Marlin 30-30s on surplus and stuck some reciever sights on them. Nobody ever said another word about our gun, and I felt just as well armed. The only shortcoming I could see was it was easy to keep an extra mag on board for the 16, whereas keeping some extra bullets for the 30-30 in a boat was kind of a pain.

[Siskiyou]

It is interesting the fiber of the people living in the America’s during WWII.  Siskiyou County has its own examples.

Early in WWII Japanese submarines were active along the Pacific Coast torpedoing shipping and shelling coastal cities.  There was a fear that a Japanese submarine had let off soldiers whose job it was to destroy the Shasta, Pioneer, and Klamath River bridges.  Old 99 was the primary North-South route between Fort Lewis Washington, and California military installations.  I do not know if this was before or after part of the torpedoed ship drifted into the Crescent City harbor. (It was still there when I was a kid)  Today a hike from the junction of the Klamath River bridge near where the Shasta River flows into the Klamath to where the Klamath flows into the Pacific is over 150-miles on the flat, when you factor in the terrain is adds many more tough miles to the journey. 
From what I gather a group of locals were got together and they went into the Shasta River canyon to guard the bridges.  Understanding that this was the winter of 1941/42 the weather was wet, and cold.   There was no supply structure. 

(The California National Guard had already been mobilized.  In fact my mother-in-law was returning across the Bay Bridge after dropping her husband off at Fort Mason.  He was a Sergeant in the California National Guard.  She heard on the car radio that Japan had dropped bombs on Pearl Harbor. 

The CNG was disembarked and deployed to ball fields and other locations because there was a fear of Japanese paratroopers. ) 

These local Minutemen were not equipped with gear for doing duty in winter weather in the steep river canyons.  I rather suspect that their firearms where their favorite deer rifle.  In 1941 the M94 was a prime rifle in the hunting community.  Even as a kid I recall seeing octagon barrel Winchester 94 rifles in the woods.  The rifles commonly observed would be Winchester, Marlin, and Savage lever actions.  I know of some surplus 30-40 Krag’s in the county. 
http://www.bridgepix.com/listing_detail.php?listingID=82

http://bridgehunter.com/ca/siskiyou/20013/




In a few days the local effort to protect the bridges was taken over by military authorizes.  This did not stop the effort by locals to protect the homeland.  My parents spoke of locals in small groups drilling in school yards.  Some of these patriots were armed with old 45-70 Springfield rifles; most likely purchased surplus for hunting.
The first deer rifle in the house that I can remember was an octagon barrel Model 94 Winchester, Long Tom, in 32-40 Winchester.  That was replaced with a nice Winchester Model 64 in 32 Special.  It had a Lyman Tang sight.

Stepping back to 1941 and 1942 and the development of the Klamath River drainage at that time just the topography would have taken a toll of an invading force.  Starvation is most likely, while the fishing in the river was good; a military force does not have time to set around fishing all day.  I cannot believe that the few residents along the route would not take a few shots at any such force.  A shot here and there than fading back into the forest would take is effective. 

A local guerrilla force would be short of ammunition, but I recall many locals loaded ammunition and cast bullets.   I believe on a whole these locals were more familiar with their Winchester than a Japanese infantry man. 

The Japanese weapon.
http://www.oldrifles.com/japanese.htm
http://www.scribd.com/doc/24291846/Military-Intelligence-Service-War-Department-Special-Series-No-19-Japanese-Infantry-Weapons-1943#

In 1941 the Japanese were armed with 6.5 and 7.7 rifles.  Both rifles are flatter shooting than the 30-30 with the FMJ bullet.   


The locals’ rifles were load with hunting ammunition which should prove more effective on the target.

I have a 1893 Marlin that is unusable because it was in a house fire.  It originally came from a mining claim way down the Klamath River drainage.  It is representative of the Marlin and Winchester rifles owned during the WWII period along the river.  It a 30-30 and has a 24-inch barrel.

While the locals would have had a mix of rifles the Winchester M94 had to be in the majority, with the 30-30 in the majority followed by the .32 Special.

[bilmac]

Indians in interior Alaska were hired in WWII to build an airfield. The old guys told me that the engineers in charge were afraid of an attack, so they asked the laborers to bring their rifles to work.

[whitedog]

With a lot of the Civil unrest talk about, many people stocked up on their favorite ammo at great expense. I myself have increased my stash somewhat but the main purchase has been 22 lr. It is infinitely cheaper than centerfire and you can carry great amounts around in your pocket. People ask me why not buy more centerfire ammo and I have said this: "I can't afford to spend money on a large centerfire stash and I can use the 22 to get a bigger rifle if necessary"