The 30-30 in Combat

[mechanic]

Old Chuck Conner's the rifleman did ok.....

[Duane]

Man this has been an interesting subject I think the levergun would make an excellent defense weapon alot better than other choices including a handgun .Plus you dont have the assualt rifle factor in court ,just a plain old deer rifle .Consider shooting someone with a Glock try to explain to a prosecuting attorney why you have it .Yes sir I hunt with it !!!!!!!!!!!!! In this day and age they would say you bought it and trained with it cause you expected to use it .Case closed intent........... With that plain old deer rifle well you see my point and to say that its to close of an enviroment for a rifle to be use mine is onle 36 inches in length same as a home defense shotgun if not shorter within ten feet I can get it upright pretty quickly .Seems most can agree the old thuty thuty would make a pretty trust worthy rifle in a pinch

[S.S.]

Look up the Battle of Plevna if you want some interesting reading
on effective use of lever actions in combat. The Turks opened
up a keg full of whoop A$$ with them.

[45-70.gov]

what  about  M-1  carbine [110 grain]

loaded  in  the  30-30  to eliminate  over penatration

or  just  stick with  your  150grain  [over  the  170s]  deer  loads  for PR

i  have  some  95 grain  hollow points  for the  32 S&W
sounds explosive

[w30wcf]

Interestingly, during WWI, France ordered 15,100 '94 carbines chambered in .30 W.C.F. along with 15,100,000 .30 W.C.F. Full Patch cartridges (1,000 per rifle) to help fight the Germans.

w30wcf

[bcp]

From:
http://oldguns.net/cat_fa_old_us_long.htm

Although wildly successful on the commercial market, relatively few lever action arms have seen military use. Some of the best known are the Spencer and Henry carbines of the Civil War, the Model 1873 Winchesters used by the Turks against the Russians, and the Model 1895 Winchesters used by the Russians and some purchased by the U.S. Army in 1898. A few Model 1892 Winchesters saw military use, mainly by the British Navy. In the Winchester Model 1894 family, there were about 1,800 carbines purchased for the 412th Aero Squadron guarding the spruce forests during WW1, the 3,000 PCMR carbines like this one, about 200 purchased for use by the Belgian Congo, and about 2,700 purchased by the British Navy in WW2.

More here on The Belgian Congo rifles and other military lever rifles:
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=85468

Bruce

[Siskiyou]

bcp

Interesting.

http://www.merzantique.com/photo.php?id=4994_0_2_0_M

[Cabin4]

I don't know that I would want a lever gun for combat work. I would take it over a bolt but you can't beat the follow up shot capability and quick reload of a semi.

[Keith L]

I don't know that I would want a lever gun for combat work. I would take it over a bolt but you can't beat the follow up shot capability and quick reload of a semi.

The less that has to be done in a combat situation the more likely the next shot will happen.  In the Civil War rifles were found with 5 or 6 charges in the barrel but the shooter never changed to a new cap.  In wars since with repeaters loaded functional guns were found on the battle field tossed aside, the shooter apparently thinking it did not work.  It may have been the shooter didn't remember to work the bolt.  Even semis were not used properly (M16s in Nam).  Whatever is used it takes lots of practice until it becomes muscle memory and doesn't require thought or fine motor skills to get that next shot off.

[Dee]

I don't know that I would want a lever gun for combat work. I would take it over a bolt but you can't beat the follow up shot capability and quick reload of a semi.

The less that has to be done in a combat situation the more likely the next shot will happen.  In the Civil War rifles were found with 5 or 6 charges in the barrel but the shooter never changed to a new cap.  In wars since with repeaters loaded functional guns were found on the battle field tossed aside, the shooter apparently thinking it did not work.  It may have been the shooter didn't remember to work the bolt.  Even semis were not used properly (M16s in Nam).  Whatever is used it takes lots of practice until it becomes muscle memory and doesn't require thought or fine motor skills to get that next shot off.

Keith your precisely on the money, and all said true. Police officers whom trained lackadaisically and dumped empty rounds in their hand and then in the bucket have been found dead with spent cases in their hand, and the revolver unloaded because that was as far as they had trained.

[Saltcreek]

alot of people dont know that some 94 winchesters were actually issued to troops in wwII

I would like to learn more about that. Any more info available?

Cheese

It was not to troops overseas. It was just about 2000 purchased by the Government and were primarily issued up in the Northwest Continental US at some bases for guard duty by U.S. Navy I believe.

[WyoStillhunter]

The Savage Model 99 was originally developed to compete for selection by the military as a new infantry rifle.  After old John Savage lost out on that venture he continued to refine the model and it became a roaring success as a sporting rifle.

[Cabin4]

The one draw back to a lever gun in combat are follow up shots while flat or say in a trench. As long as your standing or sitting its okay.

[gstewart44]

Look up the Battle of Plevna if you want some interesting reading
on effective use of lever actions in combat. The Turks opened
up a keg full of whoop A$$ with them.

Thanks for the reference......that was an incredible use of the winchester, at a time unheard of ...... a great read for all..

[jeepmann1948]

here is an interesting article about the 30-30
http://www.winchestercollector.org/guns/w-mil.shtml

[cybin]

.30-30 has about the same power as the 7.62 x 39 round that the AK 47 uses. I have a .30-30 and a SKS--in a shooting situation--I think I'll grab the SKS

cybin

[saddlebum]

There is no doubt the 30-30 lever gun is up to the task. I can hit the 200 meter chickens, off hand, every time with my Marlin 20" carbine. I shoot my reloads with 150gr Sierra FN bullets. If I move the rear sight up a notch I can hit the 300 meter pigs every time, off hand. If I go another notch up I can hit the 400 meter turkeys less than 50% of the time. Darn turkeys have always been hard for me to hit no matter what I shoot, harder than the rams. It has a Marble rear flattop sight on it. I just got lucky with the regulation of the sights. The notches just came that way. That  kind of accuracy and power make  it a good choice for defending the fort.  But I now have a Marlin 1894 in .45 Colt. I haven't played with it much passed 50yds yet. I can hit tin cans with it at that range. It holds 10rds in the tube which has some advantage over the 30-30. The other thing is the really short lever throw, less recoil, it's lighter and handier because it's shorter eventhough it has the same 20" bbl.. I use the same 250gr hand loads in it that I use in the SAA. I could load them hotter for the Marlin but I have no hankering to do that yet. If I want to hunt with a lever gun I take the 30-30 or my M-99 300 Savage. Many good things to be said for the use of a lever gun when the bad guys show up. For hunting too. Many a man in Alaska has relied only on the good ole 94 Winchester. Those guys knew how to hunt and take care of themselves and a 30-30 did it all for them.

[kid_couteau]

Hi All

I have been going through this stuff for a while now

I have owned AK-47s and AR-15s a CETME and an UZI

Know what?  In my opinion [and it is worth just what you are paying for it] Outside of shooting fast and reloading fast what will they do that this will not?



Marlin 336 in 30-30 with the following:

XS sights
XS scout mount and BSA 2x scope
Brownell's no tools take down lever screw
Ramline youth model stock

I can buy ammo at just about any sporting goods store and many gas stations.
I can take any game in Northern Maine where I live

Granted I can't put a folding stock on it and I won't look cool in front of the ladies but it is a good gun.

Kid

[kid_couteau]

Just in case I said that wrong:

I do have an AR-15 still and I like it but it is a temperamental gun that the 336 is not

[Cabin4]

Outside of shooting fast and reloading fast what will they do that this will not?

If the question is for combat use, I think there is a big differance. For hunting or killing paper at the range, no issue.

[kid_couteau]

I agree with you

If I was in Iraq or Afghanistan I would carry something different

Kid

[Dances with Geoducks]

Self/home defense a rifle is the last thing you need.  Range is short, and reaction time is shorter.  Pistol or shotgun are better.  Combat is different, with longer range shots necessary.  If I have 20 yards I will take my Marlin.  Inside ten give me my Glock.

You cant use a glock as a club. Levers are good protection firearms, but not a combat weapon.

[Dee]

kid, regardless that's a good setup, and a good looking one at that. Good job, and many of your observations are correct. Many that speak of good combat weapons have never actually used one in combat, or been in any type of combat for that matter.
World War I, was won with a bolt action 3006. World War II was won with a 10 shot, top loading, clip fed, 3006. Vietnam was lost thru no fault of the soldier, with a 30 round detachable magazine, gas operated assault rifle.
It is more about whether one wants to win, than what one wins with, many times. I believe this thread originally was more about DOMESTIC COMBAT, rather than D-Day.

[Dances with Geoducks]

World War II was won with a 10 shot, top loading, clip fed, 3006.

 gas operated assault rifle.

It was an 8 shot enbloc

Auto-rifle, only assault rifle was on the other side (chicom and sovbloc)

Today assault rifle is a liberal media buzz word to instill fear in the sheeple

darn sure there isnt any of those around here.

[Dee]

It isn't just a liberal term but the liberal does misuse it. Assault rifle is high capacity detachable magazine under 30 caliber. Starting at 30 caliber, such as the M1, or M14, are considered "battle rifles". All of the English language continues to evolve depending where you are, and whom you are associating with.

[Dances with Geoducks]

It isn't just a liberal term but the liberal does misuse it. Assault rifle is high capacity detachable magazine under 30 caliber.

According to the DOD when they classified small arms, an assault rifle has a selector switch whichs modes go

AUTO-SEMI-SAFE

unlike all others that go safe-semi-auto.

It had nothing to do with caliber, rounds, or magazine size.

Now the liberals want to ban 1022s and leverguns as assault rifles

Liberalism is a mental disorder

[Lloyd Smale]

you just have to go to a cowboy action shoot to see someone who really knows how to work and load a lever gun shoot. Theres no way in #### an average guy with an ar is going to put more hits on a target in the same time as one of these guys. Granted they shoot more them most and know there guns intimately.  Personaly i think even the average shooter with a little practice running a lever properly can put 5 shots in the kill zone of a target a 50 yards just as fast with a lever gun as a semi auto. Reloading is a differnt thing. It takes alot of practice with a lever gun to load it fast and even some of the techniques cowboys shooters imploy would probably not be near as smooth with someone shooting back at them.

I don't know that I would want a lever gun for combat work. I would take it over a bolt but you can't beat the follow up shot capability and quick reload of a semi.

[gstewart44]

It isn't just a liberal term but the liberal does misuse it. Assault rifle is high capacity detachable magazine under 30 caliber. Starting at 30 caliber, such as the M1, or M14, are considered "battle rifles". All of the English language continues to evolve depending where you are, and whom you are associating with.

The first "assault rifle" was the German Stg 44 which used a cartridge of 7.92 x 33 (32 cal.).    The Russians followed suit a few years later with the AK47 in 7.62 x 39 (30 cal).

I believe they made the distinction in the power of the cartridge rather than the caliber.   I could be wrong but I believe this is why the .30 cal M14 is a battle rifle and the .30 AK 47 is an assault rifle.  

Personally I am very satisfied with my model 94 in 3030 or model 92 in 44mag.    Cowboy shooting gave me a lot of confidence and respect for these little carbines.

[Dee]

gstewart44, I too am depending on an aging memory. You could however be right on the power issue being the difference.

[gstewart44]

You know I was just thinking,  if our west coast militia boys during WWll were armed with the venerable model 94 in 3030 they undoubtably would be using Rem Corelokt or Win exposed lead FP ammo.   I think the average citizen too would be armed with expanding point hunting ammo.   I know what the exit wounds look like on hog and deer with these rounds.   Any invading soldiers would be dealing with much nastier wounds and more dead than with FMJ rounds in the NW forests.