The 30-30 in Combat

[Dee]

You know I was just thinking,  if our west coast militia boys during WWll were armed with the venerable model 94 in 3030 they undoubtably would be using Rem Corelokt or Win exposed lead FP ammo.   I think the average citizen too would be armed with expanding point hunting ammo.   I know what the exit wounds look like on hog and deer with these rounds.   Any invading soldiers would be dealing with much nastier wounds and more dead than with FMJ rounds in the NW forests.     

Well actually gstewart44, I have seen the exit wound of the above described on a homo sapien. It was a little less than half dollar size but fatal. Thru the chest, out the back. I don't remember however, if it was 150 round nose, or 170 flat point though. Didn't seem to matter to the recipient.
I prefer 150s myself. To shoot, not to catch.

[bcp]

You know I was just thinking,  if our west coast militia boys during WWll were armed with the venerable model 94 in 3030 they undoubtably would be using Rem Corelokt or Win exposed lead FP ammo.   I think the average citizen too would be armed with expanding point hunting ammo.   I know what the exit wounds look like on hog and deer with these rounds.   Any invading soldiers would be dealing with much nastier wounds and more dead than with FMJ rounds in the NW forests.     

FMJ  30-30 cartridges were made by almost every company until recently.  One hunter I knew preferred them due to less meat loss.

If you go to this page, then scroll to whatever manufacturer you want and look for "FMJ" you can see a photo of that FMJ cartridge.
http://www.armorypub.com/Witzel/3030/

For example:





Bruce

[gstewart44]

You know I was just thinking,  if our west coast militia boys during WWll were armed with the venerable model 94 in 3030 they undoubtably would be using Rem Corelokt or Win exposed lead FP ammo.   I think the average citizen too would be armed with expanding point hunting ammo.   I know what the exit wounds look like on hog and deer with these rounds.   Any invading soldiers would be dealing with much nastier wounds and more dead than with FMJ rounds in the NW forests.     

FMJ  30-30 cartridges were made by almost every company until recently.  One hunter I knew preferred them due to less meat loss.

If you go to this page, then scroll to whatever manufacturer you want and look for "FMJ" you can see a photo of that FMJ cartridge.
http://www.armorypub.com/Witzel/3030/

For example:





Bruce

Wow thanks for the info.     Never have seen a full metal jacket 3030.    I think the "less meat damage" you referenced above would be reason to instead use a CoreLokt or a Jacketed FP if the 3030 were called upon to  defend the USA by militia or civilian. 

[45-70.gov]

i  have loaded  110 gr  FMJ  m1 carbine slugs

only shot a few so far

very little recoil.....not  checked velocity yet  2700   i suspect/read

[Dances with Geoducks]

30-30 for the 21st century

[williamlayton]

Fun read.
I recall that some 30/30's were issued and used in combat--but without refrence I will defer. It seems this was at the Canal and early on fighting--when even the Johnson and Bolt .06 saw action.
The 30 cal carbine was used but most issued the weapons did not care for them, for reasons of range a firepower, however, in full auto they were acceptable----this was in WWll, Korea.
Bill Yost, my old buddy of a Gunney in 4 capaigns in the Pacific, said they were junk and useless---but he said that of the Thompson and the M-1--all were discarded as soon as they could get a B A R.
Shotguns have long been issued too troops in WWl, ll, Korea, Nam and still today.
30/30's are all that is needed for most hunting---I have never had the opportunity for a 300 yard shot in E. Texas--I have in the Davis Mountains.
I prefer a shotgun in the home.
I would take a 30/30 into combat in gurilla style or defense.
It certainly is not an ideal offensive weapon (if you can distinguish offense from defense in a fire fight).
Random thoughts.
Blessings

[Siskiyou]

Williamlayton:  My father-in-law who was an Army Captain in New Guinea, and the Philippines during WWII would agree with you.  He passed on the M1 carbine and carried a M1 rifle.  When you are up against serious people you want a serious round.

He knew a good rifle having been raise on a farm down on the border near Douglas, AZ.  The 30-30 Marlin I have was passed to me after his death.  It came after he purchased a 30-06 when posted to the Alaskan Territory in the 1950’s.

[SHOOTALL]

I have seen pictures of coast watchers in WW2 with Winchester 94's on islands . As to the carbine - with hollow point ammo it becomes a different animal . If the new 327 fed mag is good then the carbine is as good and approaching the 357 mag. Think of it as a pistol that has better control .

[saddlebum]

This is a discussion about the potential role of the 30-30 lever rifle as a combat/defensive weapon. But since the M1 Carbine has come up in the discussion any one that might be interested in what the Carbine is capable of, check out the post in the, "Ask Veral Smith a Question", forum on this site. He gave me some good info. on the subject. I think it is still on the first page,"LBT .30 Carbine Bullet". The 30-30 still has more power than the .30 carbine but it can sneak up to it pretty close. I have both of these guns and would reach for the Carbine first, but just because of the 15 and 30rd mags. I wouldn't feel too under gunned in an urban or rural fight with my Marlin 30-30 or .45 Colt.http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,193888.0.html

[mcwoodduck]

After the INFAMOUS North Hollywood shoot out we used the lessons learned as a training film of WHAT NOT TO DO.
The result of North Hollywood was more about miserable tactics than fire power. Most ALL patrol vehicle involved in the affray had a pump shotgun IN THE TRUNK. These officers seldom done more than qualify with the shotgun every year. They didn't train with it, and their training kicked in. They left it in the trunk.
 .

If any of the officers had a 30-30 rather than a bird shot loaded shot gun in their trunk it would have been a very different fight in hollywood.
while much laughed at in the gun rags the 30-30 has far more energy than the 44 mag out of a pistol and would have penitrated the pistol rated vests and body armor the two bank robers were wearing.  Having slugs in the shotguns would have changed the fight as the slug may or may not have penitrated but would have broken ribs with chest hits at the 40 yard range of this shoot out.  Arming the police with AR's while not a bad idea is over kill to having to cow tow to the locals and use bird shot #4's in the shotguns by the LAPD and if the Military were not giving surplus guns away slugs would have been cheaper than rifles, training, ammo and gear to go with the rifle.

On to the 30-30 in combat.  Many were used in the Mexican revolution in the early ninteen teens.  many other designs were out there were surplus and current 93's, Krags, 98 mausers, Win 95's and others but most used the 94 30-30 for many reasons.  good reliable rifle with large amounts of cheap ammo available.

[Huffmanite]

Not a 30-30, But there was a large battle fought between Turkey and Russia in 1870s where Turks used the Winchester M1866 rifle, 44 henry caliber (44-40?)  Turks began firing at Russian troops when within 3000 yards with Martini-peabody rifles.  But when Russians closed to 200 yards, switched to the Winchester rifle and promptly began firing deadly salvos at advancing Russian troops.  Each Turk soldier had 500 rds of ammo.  Russian casualties were quite large.  Turks will eventually lose battle, but outnumbered about 4 to 1 by Russians.   Story about battle.

http://www.militaryrifles.com/Turkey/Plevna/ThePlevnaDelay.html

[John Y Cannuck]

Lots of different topics under one banner! 

There's all kinds of combat and conditions.  In a jungle, something like an AR rules.  Open desert, then something heavier like an M14 might be the ticket.  In European woods, a lever or bolt would rule.
Hell, where I was in 'Nam the terrain was more like Arizona or New Mexico than jungle.  You can't deal in generalities.

Home defense?  Give me a pump 12 ga. in anything from 4-ought to #2, but probably not double-ought.  Too much chance for wall penetration.
Besides, I'm surprised it isn't mentioned here.  The BEST home defense is racking the slide on a pump!    If the perp doesn't get the audible message, than the lead one follows.  Just one "SNACK-SNACK" from the top of the stairs will probably be followed by the sound of beating feet.  Unless there are drugs involved, of course.

Of course racking a '94 Winchester would have a similar effect.
Wall, penetration? My family is behind me. Only perps are in front of me.

[Keith L]

)
[/quote]
 My family is behind me. Only perps are in front of me.
[/quote]

Maybe, maybe not.  All depends on where people are when the stuff happens.  And lots of us have neighbors that could be in the line of fire.

[John Y Cannuck]

If my family is behind the perp, I'd still prefer sighted rifle to a shotgun for their safety.
While I realize it has happened, the chances of hitting someone outside the home are minimal.

[Dee]

Shooting a 3030 rifle, or any other high powered rifle, inside a residence and expecting to NOT ENDANGER the public at large, outside the home is BOTH UNREALISTIC, AND IRRESPONSIBLE.
While EVERY EFFORT, should be exercised to protect ones family, it does not give anyone, the right to endanger other innocents OUTSIDE THE HOME, and to take that upon ones self should be considered CRIMINAL, and that person SHOULD BE PROSECUTED, unless circumstance were dire, and the burden of proof that a better alternative was not available, should be PLACED DIRECTLY ON THE HOME OWNER.
A shotgun with bird shot INSIDE the house is FAR MORE PRACTICAL, AND SAFE, AND EFFECTIVE, than turning rifle rounds lose, to go where they may. Even firing a pistol round, ESPECIALLY THE 9mm, are taking a chance on injury or death, to an outside innocent.
Drive by shootings into houses by gangs, and their results, should be more than enough evidence of these facts, for even the most feeble minded defenders of the home.
Bullets change direction almost 100% of the time, after passing thru a body, and when ones family is BEHIND the perp, they are not safe IF the round exits the perp, and are in fact, in more danger than the neighbor.

[Siskiyou]

++on what Dee says.

[Keith L]

Thanks Dee for saying far better what I was trying to say.  I had a neighbor that had Desert Eagle 50s for home defense and I was glad to see him leave.  I was pricing armor plating for the walls in his direction.

[Dee]

Thanks Dee for saying far better what I was trying to say.  I had a neighbor that had Desert Eagle 50s for home defense and I was glad to see him leave.  I was pricing armor plating for the walls in his direction.

Well I hate to take such a matter of fact approach to this point, but I have personally seen the results of drive by shootings, and know from experience that sheet rock will not even deflect a wax bullet fired from a 38 special casing using only the primer for power, let alone a 3030.
If some moron were to shoot thru his house with a high powered rifle, with the round coming into my house, he would be in far greater peril from me, than the perp he was shooting at. Heaven for bid if my wife, mother, one of my children, or one of my eight grand children, were hit by some idiot Rambo neighbor, with a high powered rifle.
The purpose of this thread I believe was to discuss the virtues of the 3030 in a fight, not sneaking down the hallways of a residence in search of a burglar.

[John Y Cannuck]

Looks like you guys are gonna gang up on me, and I certainly see your point, however, the point must be made that the perps will be under no such restrictions.
From my residence, the chances of hitting a bystander would be very minimal. But I concede, that we don't all live in such neighborhoods.
I'll leave you to your beliefs.

[Dee]

Looks like you guys are gonna gang up on me, and I certainly see your point, however, the point must be made that the perps will be under no such restrictions.
From my residence, the chances of hitting a bystander would be very minimal. But I concede, that we don't all live in such neighborhoods.
I'll leave you to your beliefs.

No one is ganging up on you Cannuck, but when you say that chances of hitting a neighbor is minimal, explain yourself. In a city or town the chances are GOOD of hitting an innocent. If you are RURAL then say so. If I lived in the country with no neighbors then it would not be an issue, and I might agree with you.
As far as the perp being under restrictions as to armament, that is not the discussion. Everyone I think is pretty much aware that were he willing to be put under any type of restrictions, he would not be in your house to begin with.

[Huffmanite]

A couple of things:

Back in the late 60s, I was allowed to hunt on a deer lease that I was not a member of.  Man in his 80s on lease hunted with a Winchester 30-30, a rifle his father had bought in a pawn shop during the great depression for less than $10.  Don't remember the model, but it did have the letters U.S. burned into the side of the butt.  Always assumed it was a rifle issued to U.S. calvary.

Also in late 60s, lived in an apartment building off campus, used only by college students.  It would have reminded you of a two story motel, hallway with about 12 rooms on each side.  Each room was small with 2 built in beds, one along each side of walls dividing rooms.  Late one afternoon, guy returned from hunting with his 30-30, dropped rifle on his bed and it went off.  Bullet went thru walls of at least 6 rooms before exiting outer wooden wall of building.  Because it had gone off on bed, bullet passed thru walls about 2-3 inches above top of 11 or so beds.  Luckily, few students were in their rooms when this happened and no one was laying in their bed.

[Daman]

Lots of different topics under one banner! 

There's all kinds of combat and conditions.  In a jungle, something like an AR rules.  Open desert, then something heavier like an M14 might be the ticket.  In European woods, a lever or bolt would rule.
Hell, where I was in 'Nam the terrain was more like Arizona or New Mexico than jungle.  You can't deal in generalities.

Home defense?  Give me a pump 12 ga. in anything from 4-ought to #2, but probably not double-ought.  Too much chance for wall penetration.
Besides, I'm surprised it isn't mentioned here.  The BEST home defense is racking the slide on a pump!    If the perp doesn't get the audible message, than the lead one follows.  Just one "SNACK-SNACK" from the top of the stairs will probably be followed by the sound of beating feet.  Unless there are drugs involved, of course.

He'll never here that at my house. I keep every gun I own loaded to the gills. Now no I don't have kids yet so that will probably change, but I grew up around LOADED guns. I am fully of the opinion UNLOADED guns accidentally kill people. Noone who knows me picks up one of my gun and says hey man is this thing loaded. And if you don't know me I had rather you didn't pick my guns up (had to have that conversation too many times)!


But back to the topic. I keep my 94 close at hand, but my 870 is my first defense followed by a 357 revolver.

Daman

[zoner]

FYI an acquaintance had an AD inside his home with 12 ga 00 Buck....went thru a wood exit door, a cedar fence, a water line clamped to the house next door, an exterior/interior wall,another interior wall,and lodged in the far wall. So put 4's or 6's in your home defense shotgun

[Natty Bumppo]

Man this has been an interesting subject I think the levergun would make an excellent defense weapon alot better than other choices including a handgun .Plus you dont have the assualt rifle factor in court ,just a plain old deer rifle .Consider shooting someone with a Glock try to explain to a prosecuting attorney why you have it .Yes sir I hunt with it !!!!!!!!!!!!! In this day and age they would say you bought it and trained with it cause you expected to use it .Case closed intent...........

I've seen a couple of posts like this . . . evidently some of you boys live in the wrong states, lol.  Here in Louisiana, if you shot an intruder in your house, about all that would be said would be "good shot," whether you shot him with a Glock, an M-4, or a bazooka.  BTW, I've got a bunch of guns of all different types, but I keep a Springfield M1911 .45 ACP and a Browning 12 gauge close by for home defense.  Another BTW, pointing a weapon at a perp and pulling the trigger shows intent.

[Dee]

Natty Bumppo, that is the issue here. Here in Texas you can bust a perp for stealing your hub caps, or even your neighbor's hub caps. Ask the two thieves in Pasadena, Texas about their nemesis Joe Horn. No wait! Ask their next of kin. Horn killed the stealin sobs. Up north and a few other states they cannot wrap their minds around that concept. It's kinda like the pit bull I wrote about in another thread. I didn't shoot it because I chose not to at the time. Not because I couldn't.
It's different where you and I live, than most places.