Author Topic: New Buf. Clas. 45-70 Owner w/Question (Read 2090 times)

David I. · « **on:** January 12, 2010, 06:11:44 AM »

I finally located and purchased a new Buf. Clas. 45-70 manufactured in 2007 (last year w/extractor?). All and all pretty nice gun for the class it's in. The forend fits pretty nice except for the last 1.5" and the trigger is a little over 4 lbs. Of course it has the tall .584" front sight and Williams rear peep. Since I don't and won't have the money to replace either of the sights, atleast not for quite some time,......here is what I'd like to try: Approx. 95% of my shooting will be done at approx. 400yds., I'd like to try raising the rear sight and utilize what I have. Come Spring I can experiment with various height inserts made from temporary materials and longer screws, but I was wondering if anyone might have an idea as to the approx. height I might need for 400yds. using 300gr. fairly mild target loads? I realize none of this is ideal but I pure and simply don't have the funds and won't for quite some time. I may have to purchase a cheek raising pad (leather) and may not, time will tell. I do think I'd like to get a smaller rear peep aperture, maybe .050" instead of the .125" that came with it. I am planning on polishing the barrel but I will shoot the gun before I "relieve" the last 1.5" of the forend and for now I'm going to leave the trigger alone and just clean it real good and see how it goes. Thanks for taking the time to read this and any responses are appreciated.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** January 12, 2010, 06:28:36 AM »

Congrats on the new BC, you'll love it!! You could just shorten the post insert on the front sight, that would give you some elevation at no cost, a new sight will come with inserts, even so I'd recommend replacing it with a Shaver 17A insert set, much nicer inserts, I don't know how well that would work, but worth economic consideration.

Did you mean it has an ejector? All H&Rs have had extractors for a few years now, that's all they use in rifles, my 2007 38-55 Target has an extractor.

Tim

David I. · « **Reply #2 on:** January 12, 2010, 06:45:22 AM »

Thanks for the advise on the inserts Tim., I will consider that. Do you have any approximation as to the height dimension I referred to? Also, I guess I was misinformed about extractors/ejectors.....my gun does have an extractor (which I actually prefer). Someone told me from 2008 on they had ejectors! At any rate, back to the height dimension thing.....am I looking at 1/8", 1/4", 1/2" or more? Any idea how much to raise rear sight shooting those loads at 400yds?

gcrank1 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 12, 2010, 08:04:25 AM »

The fancy tang type sights do get expensive, but there are a few inexpensive imports. See Track of the Wolf's site, they had few around $50ish. Id get the one they say 'has windage' (2 small screws at the base of staff) but that is not a real windage adj. It really is to get the staff set for a true verticle once it is mounted.
A truely better sight is the one H&R used to sell in the accessory cat (anybody know if Rem. still does?).
Its a Williams receiver sight that mounts right on in place of the hunting peep the gun comes with (about $70). If you absolutely cant come up with even that much try making cardstock spacers to raise your peep base up. You local shop can provide a couple longer 6-48 screws for cheap.
BTW, there will most likely be some loctite in the bottom of the screw holes. Do yourself a favor and take the time to pick it out.
Regarding the peep size, dont crowd the sight and the hole will appear smaller. A lot of people ere to an aperture that is too small. You could try a piece of black electricians tape on the thing and poke the size hole you want with a pin. Seems too simple, but it works.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** January 12, 2010, 08:57:24 AM »

Quote from: David I. on January 12, 2010, 06:45:22 AM

Thanks for the advise on the inserts Tim., I will consider that. Do you have any approximation as to the height dimension I referred to? Also, I guess I was misinformed about extractors/ejectors.....my gun does have an extractor (which I actually prefer). Someone told me from 2008 on they had ejectors! At any rate, back to the height dimension thing.....am I looking at 1/8", 1/4", 1/2" or more? Any idea how much to raise rear sight shooting those loads at 400yds?

Not having shot past 200yds, I can't help ya on the elevation issue, but I do know that Bernie (dodd3) has shot to 600yds with 500gr loads to 1500-1600fps(IIRC) using the Williams FP Target sight and the .404" 17A front sight, you can read all about sights in the FAQs, see Long Range Sights for the BC and Target and Peep and Firesights, there are links to a lot of sights that work on them, sites like Buffalo Arms, Dixie Gun and TOTW, some inexpensive tang sights included, there are also methods discussed to mount tang sights since H&Rs don't have a tang. There was a company called Thunder Ridge that had several traditional sights that would bolt on, but they apparently went out of business. There's also a link on John Boy's 1000yd 45-70 shooting with trapdoor loads in his BC.

H&R only uses ejectors on rimfires and shotguns, always has, they've never changed. They started using extractors in 2004 on 204 Ruger when it was first available and gradually switched all centerfire rifle chamberings to extractors only over the next 3yrs, there may have been some older barrels in inventory like the discontinued 450Marlin and the 223 Superlight that were still around later.

Tim

David I. · « **Reply #5 on:** January 12, 2010, 09:48:33 AM »

Thanks for the reply gcrank1. I'm aware of the sights from TOTW, the one you speak of is $65. I do have a technical background that includes gunsmithing and I don't have a problem with locating longer 6-48 screws. I do have a problem with money right now....$65 is out of the question! I believe card stock shims probably won't be enough without stacking a whole bunch. I read that with the stock sights I have I will have trouble hitting center at 100yds. As far as the rear peep aperture size, .125 is way too large for me at 400yds and my cheek will be put where I always put it for many,many reasons...it's best to change peep size, don't fool with how gun is normally mounted. I temporarily intend to make some little rubber inserts to go in the recess of the peep with various size holes smaller than .125. Actual replacement apertures are $18 each...too much right now. Adjustable aperture for WGRS is $45....again way too much. Tim, Thanks for the reply also. I did read the FAQs and looked at other sites and did read about John Boy! If and when I can afford a tang sight I will be inletting some small proper size threaded inserts into stock with epoxy. I prefer not to inlet a "false tang" as some have done, I definitely will not just use wood screws on my gun. All I was looking for was a little help with the rear sight height dimension I referenced earlier., I can't afford anything else right now. I guess I will just experiment next Spring to find out if I should raise it approx. 1/8", 1/4", 1/2" or more.

brianscott12 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 12, 2010, 10:07:16 AM »

Had to ask, what is the difference in an extracter and an ejector? Is it the difference in throwing the shells out rather than you having to pull them out. Mine is the kind that you have to manually pull out. Why did they do that? Mine is a buff classic 45/70 made in 08.

petemi · « **Reply #7 on:** January 12, 2010, 10:47:58 AM »

brianscott, You have an extractor. I much prefer them to ejectors and now have 11 of them.

Pete

wreckhog · « **Reply #8 on:** January 12, 2010, 11:02:12 AM »

Ejector throw loaded rounds and brass pretty far at times. Going to be tough to reload fast regardless. Cases sometimes stick in ejector barrels and you need a cleaning rod to poke them out.

NickSS · « **Reply #9 on:** January 12, 2010, 01:54:55 PM »

With mild target loads with a 300 gr slug you will find some problems getting on at 400 yards. You will need to go up roughly 12 minutes of elevation for every 100 yards so to get on at 400 from a 100 yard zero you will need 36 minutes of elevation which equates to roughly 7/10ths of an inch. The sight that comes with the buffalo classic has a problem getting some loads on at 200 yards let alone 400. Also a 300 gr bullet is a poor choice for 400 yards for accuracy as they slow down fast and are very subject to wind drift at that range. A 400 gr bullet does better but for best results you need a 500 gr or heavier slug at that range. To get on at 400 yards you really need a mid range tang sight as not even most scopes have enough up to get a 45-70 on at 400 with mild loads.

mechanic · « **Reply #10 on:** January 12, 2010, 02:57:42 PM »

I've shot 420 grain black powder loads to 800 yds. I'm doing so by "dead reckoning". I took an post insert that came with the rifle, and filed it to almost nothing, and that gets me to 200 or so. From there you can extrapolate that it will take quite a bit of elevation.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 12, 2010, 03:24:48 PM »

Im going to guess that even with the lowest 17A down close to the barrel you still will need a mid-range staff tang sight and that will mean getting your cheek well off the comb. You will probably end up 'chinning' it (and that might bite), but guys do it and make hits.
Your ultimate goal of 400 will be achieved at some point. For now maybe get familar with it at 1 &200 yds and youll figure out what you need to do.

David I. · « **Reply #12 on:** January 12, 2010, 04:37:09 PM »

Thanks NickSS, finally someone with a dimension for me, I appreciate it. I may have to go to 405gr bullet and slightly heavier load to go the distance better, I was just trying to keep the kick down a little. I will not be shooting on a breezy day, though I realize it doesn't take much breeze. As I stated earlier I can't afford a tang site right now, maybe some day. Thanks machanic for the comments, taken into consideration. Thanks gcrank1, I know you're trying to help. As I mentioned earlier, if I need a cheek raising pad I will get one. I can't afford a tang site right now, but I realize it would be best.....I don't "NEED" one as you say, I will make do with what I have and raise my rear site the approx. amount that NickSS referred to. I'm not a novice to shooting (over 43 years), just a novice to the 45-70. Yes of course I will be shooting at 100-200yds first, I'm just doing my homework now in the Winter so I can be ready come warmer months. Please check my profile and previous posts, I'm not new to shooting, gun smithing or technical matters or common sense for that matter, just new to 45-70 on a very low budjet. I have an ability to make things do out of necessity until I can afford the better or right way. I will achieve 400yds with good results and it won't take me very long either, even with the lousy WGRS rear sight raised up! When I do get a better tang sight it will just be that much easier. I've been known to shoot deer at 165 and 205yds with iron sights on a muzzleloader with my aging eyes at 53 and 54 years old.....so please cut me some slack, I have some knowledge and experience; I've been around the block a few times as they say. Thanks again to you all for the info, every day we should all learn something.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 13, 2010, 03:38:54 AM »

Say, David, I just had a thought. Since you have skills, and want to inlet a 'false tang' anyway, why dont you make a block (like the German schuetzen rifles have) to fit it. In it have as fine a threaded hole as you can do, verticle of course, and make a 'lolipop' sight like the old target rifles. This can be as simple or fancy as you want. By using the alignment already established with the standard sights you should be able to get your windage pretty close. Yo could even build in windage with a sliding block (a L/R dovetail would be sweet) with a lock down screw.
All in all a little futzy to do but it would work.

David I. · « **Reply #14 on:** January 13, 2010, 05:09:56 AM »

Thanks gcrank1 for the reply. Yes, I do have more than one option. I prefer to keep it simple for this mod. because I know down the road I will be purchasing a low end $ tang sight. I'm sorry, but I do need to correct you.....I previously said I do NOT want to inlet a false tang. I said I prefer to inlet the appropriate small metal threaded inserts (epoxy 2 in) in the stock instead. I strongly believe the two inserts will be less stressful to the small amount of wood in that area than inletting a false tang, besides the fact of much less work and time. I have many projects going on most of the time, too many things I love to do and too many I have to do, they all take money I don't always have in my semi-retirement! I know I'm not alone in this, I just have to choose my priorities carefully. Besides finishing my log house I'm building, I have a young "wild" dog to take care of and train, and all the everyday things that have to be attended to which include keeping our wood stove going, cutting wood that I'm behind on, and the list goes on and on. I need to put brakes on one of our cars, etc;etc;etc. Besides finishing some outside things on our house come Spring I have to build a small observatory for my telescope.....yes, I'm into astronomy also! I guess I'm too handy a guy with too many interests without enough money. I know, I know,...poor baby, quit my whining! I'm actually very thankful for my abilities and for what I have including food, shelter, health, money to buy toys, etc. I am a Christian and I thank the Lord every day. Anyway, enough about me, I do tend to go on sometimes and this really isn't the place to do it. Thanks for reading, David. P.S. There are people starving in this world including the USA.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 13, 2010, 12:15:35 PM »

Ive got myself into a similar 'mess o' fish'. Too soon old, and too late smart, but life is good!
Several friends of mine do shoot 45-70 in buf matches at various distances. Ive asked for some figures for you and they should come in soon.
I often go the KISS way in working something up, even been know to 'whittle' a trial piece of wood and electrician tape it down to get my 'Mk1' prototype close enough to do something serious.
I like the threaded insert idea, Ive seen some in the hardware store 'Jansdorf' bin that look promising.
If you are interested I have the ctr to ctr measurements of various tang sight base mounts if you need.

BIGDAVE54 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 13, 2010, 05:47:27 PM »

I shoot a 45-70 405 grain Remington store bought Core Lockt bullet in my Handi Rifle(22 in. barrel) and get by pretty good with it. I do not think the recoil is that bad. Certainly if you can shoot a slug in a 20 gauge shotgun...the 405 bullet should not be that bad. It is more like a shove than a recoil kick,because of the way the powder burns. I like my Handi Rifle ,but now I have Buffalo rifle fever. I was looking at one yesterday at a place called SPORTSMAN'S WAREHOUSE here in Columbia. I bought the last 45-70 Handi Rifle on the shelf just before Christmas at Acadamy Sports in Spartanberg,SC. The way the guy talked he did not think Remington was going to build anymore so i want to get the H&R Buffalo long barrel version while I can still get one made in Gardner,Mass..I have to wait until tax time. Momma has a moratorium on the credit cards and using the savings account for buying guns.I have noticed every single firearm I have ever bought new has appreciated in value faster than my 401 k has.

Jacko · « **Reply #17 on:** January 14, 2010, 01:14:29 AM »

It sounds like your half cluey about DIY. Also sounds like you have a lot of projects on the go but I meet a retired fella a while back at the rifle range who told me how he can only afford to shoot 1 day every 3 months as his pension was insufficient. He was shooting to 200 yards with his rough and rusty pre 1900 54 calibre muzzle loader and every shot was hitting the 8" bull.

I was impressed as he had made his own front sight blade and tang sight with common bits and pieces from his garage and a stick welder. He inletted some nuts he turned round spinning in a drill as incerts into his stock, welded a u shaped bracket to a base with appropriately spaced holes for the stock mount. Then welded nuts to the side of the u shaped piece of metal drilling one nuts thread out & leaving one threaded to enable windage adjustments. He made an upright to house his elevation adjustment by welding a number of nuts together as the housing for an eye bolt. It rode on the bottom of the u bracket and was quite ridgid. It did not fold. He soldered a tiny brass washer into the eye as an aperture. He used a wing nut as a lock nut, a quick clean up with a file and it looked right at home on that old rifle

He told me he'd make a neat one seeing as the experimental model worked so well. He had plenty of adjustment left with his eye bolt tang sight , I'll bet he could shoot it beyond 400 yards. Going out there on Sunday, hope he's there.

regards Jacko

ps - A simpler home made tang could be to braze/weld an housing for the eye bolt to the tang base and adjust windage with shims,

David I. · « **Reply #18 on:** January 14, 2010, 05:50:39 AM »

Thanks for the input gcrank1. As far as the hole spacing on various tang sights, I'd prefer to wait until I purchase my tang sight....I do have one in mind but who knows what I'll end up with since I won't be getting one for about 6-12 months. When I do buy one I intend to buy one with a fairly short base on purpose. Thanks Jacko for all the info, interesting indeed. I am capable of similar fabrications and have actually made quite a few things from scratch over the years, sometimes for good reasons and sometimes not! It would be very inexpensive and probably turn out OK but in this case I'd rather wait for the $ and use what I have (raise rear WGRS) for now. There is one more thing I'm short of...TIME! I have to pick and choose what I spend my time on just as carefully as what I spend my money on. At this point in time I choose to spend my time on more important things, but thanks for the info. Thanks BIGDAVE54 for your comments on 405gr bullets. I do agree and realize 405's would be better than 300's at 400yds, but I think 405gr bullets are more $ than 300gr last time I checked and I will NOT be casting my own for many reasons. I think I might try loading slightly heavier 300gr loads (not target) to help atleast a little. I think the small amount of extra powder will be less $ than always buying 405gr bullets. If using the 300's don't work well enough for me then I will go to the 405's, but I do want to try it first. People told me I couldn't hit much less kill deer at 200yds free hand with an iron sighted muzzleloader....but I did, 2 for 2. Granted, I was using a fairly flat shooting 195gr bullet in 45 caliber but only with 100gr Pyrodex, velocity was approx. 1400fps w/only 600ft.lbs. energy @200yds. I realize the 45-70 is a different beast with less aerodynamic bullet, etc; but I think I have a good chance at using 300gr (slightly hot loaded) for 400yd targets...time will tell.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 14, 2010, 10:31:50 AM »

Funney thing about ballistics: Bullets of a similar ballistic coefficient (similar not exact, OK), regardless of caliber, driven at the same velocity, will have THE SAME TRAJECTORY.
The old timey calibers with lead bullets (that all pretty much had the same profile) shot about 1250fps. High velocity loads got up to around 1450fps. The trajectories were all about the same, If you doubt it, check the book or a ballistic program.
The longer, heavier versions were better in the wind, for sure.
This means that for most of us who grew up with the .22LR (check that bullet profile against a 500ish .45) at about 1250fps already have all that drop info in our heads, even if we cant quote it.
We never forget, we just have trouble accessing it sometimes.

David I. · « **Reply #20 on:** January 14, 2010, 12:00:48 PM »

Thanks for the reminder gcrank1, I do agree for the most part. The important key is "same ballistic coefficient". The point I was trying to make was, sometimes things can be done even if not the ideal way. The 195gr Power Point I used in the muzzleloader does not have the same ballistic coefficient as the 45-70 bullets I will be using.....it will be a different beast. I am fairly confident that if I load 45-70 300gr RN to decent velocities it will "carry" to 400yds for my target purposes. Of course I won't be shooting on breezy days unless I want to have some real fun or aggravation depending on how you look at it! Most of what I previously said and here regarding these points are basically in response to what NICKSS stated pertaining to "carrying that far w/low velocity loads". I do agree with him to a point. I guess my definition of "light target load" and "slightly hotter load" should be clarified. I guess I was just trying to say (maybe not clearly) that my loads won't be real hot hunting loads, but definately fast enough to carry a 300gr projectile 400yds for target use. I don't think it will take as much speed as some people think. I plan to look into 45-70 loads and velocities when the time comes, but I do know some approximations and I'm aware the 45-70 is normally loaded fairly slow.....which is what I want (within reason and practicality for 400yds). Sometimes a person has to do the best they can with the money they have even if it's not the best or ideal. Either way, I'll have fun.....and I will hit the target fairly consistantly.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 15, 2010, 03:18:55 AM »

David, My friend says,"allow 5-7 min. of elev. for each 50yds at 1150fps". I had asked about changes to be made from a -0- of 100yd on out.Hope this helps.

David I. · « **Reply #22 on:** January 15, 2010, 05:43:07 AM »

Thanks gcrank1 for the info. Those figures are basically the same as what NickSS supplied. It equates to approx. .0195"/min. with a zero at 100yds. Which means at that velocity I should raise my rear sight approx. 7/10" for 400yds. I have to look at some loading tables to see how much more velocity I can get using 300gr RN bullets without using a ton more powder. If I don't want to go with more velocity I will go ahead and raise my rear sight approx. 7/10". Not being real familiar with 45-70 loads yet, I'm not sure how much velocity can be gained by using different types/ brands /amounts of powder, but it won't take me long to look things up. I have a feeling others may chime in with info, but they certainly don't have to. If this all ends up not cost effective as compared to just using 405gr bullets (could end up only small $ diff.), then I may just use 405's. Either way I will have to raise my rear sight approx. .5 to .7" depending on velocity of load w/RN bullet. P.S. If I remember correctly I think 405gr bullets are quite a bit more than 300gr, but of course I have to weigh that $ difference against the cost of more and/or different powder.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #23 on:** January 15, 2010, 06:29:53 AM »

I took a quick look at the tables in my old Hornady book and they have drop figures with various -0-s.
The listings for the 'lighter' 45s are for 300 & 350gr bullets down to 1300fps., but dont go to 400yd. It does for the heavies though.
If I recall correctly you can divide a drop at a given distance by 4 to get an approx. midrange point of impact above point of aim to -0- for 'on out there'.
(ie, with a 100yd -0-, 180" drop @400 / 4 = 45". so pt of impact at 200yd. 45" above pt of aim should get you close to 'on' at 400) .
I think Id whittle out a hardwood, brass or alum spacer for under your stock sight (set the adj. in the middle) and try to get a 4' high at 200 setting, then see how she falls on out at 400.
A couple of shots where you can see the dirt splash will let you walk it in (I have a favorite hillside field that gets worked up).
What powders do you have to work with?

David I. · « **Reply #24 on:** January 15, 2010, 07:05:38 AM »

Thanks for all the info gcrank1. Will prove very helpful I'm sure. I will be using black ABS pipe to make my temporary "raising spacers". I will have to stack 3-4 pieces but that's OK because it's only temporary, besides this will give me some adjustability. The ABS is very easy to work with and can be formed to the barrel radius with only mild heat. If I buy the right size pipe fittings (very cheap), they will already be very close to the correct radius. Like I said, down the road I will be purchasing a tang sight.....but who knows, if I really like how my mod. works I may stick with it and replace the ABS spacers with something better! Like I always say (too often), time will tell. As far as powder that I have now, I only have some Unique that I use for my 45LC loads, so I can buy what ever powder would be best. I want to make my choice carefully because as you know powder is very expensive.

DCmauser · « **Reply #25 on:** January 15, 2010, 07:57:44 AM »

Since the H&R 1871 furnished Lyman 17 AUG globe front sight is 0.584" tall and the someday replacement AHB is 0.404" tall, of course the difference would be 0.180 inches. - So, maybe would about 0.180" high shim on rear barrel sight might compensate in mean time?

David I. · « **Reply #26 on:** January 15, 2010, 08:33:50 AM »

Thanks DCmauser, that would definately help but probably only for shooting at distances of 100-200yds. I believe to be properly set up to shoot at 100-200yds with the factory rear WGRS sight the proper height front sight would be the .494" if I remember correctly. In order to shoot the distance of 400yds I do need to raise the rear sight quite a bit.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #27 on:** January 15, 2010, 09:28:57 AM »

Ive used a lot of Unique thru the years and depend on Lymans cast Bullet Handbook for data. Past few years Ive been using IMR 4227 in a variety of cases, 30-30 on up, with satisfaction. Im not an ultimate velocity/load guy anyway and performnce with economy suits me (ie, duplicate traditional loads with smokeless powder). I seem to hold my own with the boys when we get out to shoot.

David I. · « **Reply #28 on:** January 15, 2010, 09:53:36 AM »

Thanks gcrank1, I'm sure I'll find that very useful info.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #29 on:** January 16, 2010, 11:14:08 AM »

I went through some of my reference material and re-found a 45-70 'universal' Unique load that ,"has worked in a great number of rifles using 300 to 500 (ish)gr bullets". Try 13-15 gr. Unique. Of course, the normal disclaimer applies,"you are on yur own" (but you knew that anyway).