P. Bondini .50 Caliber Single Shot Percussion Hawken Pistol

[Redtail1949]

A friend gave me this gun and I took it apart and cleaned it up. Pretty good overall shape. i called my friend and asked him what size ball he used in it and he said "I think .490!" Well i go and buy some bring them home and they sure do not fit snug at all. As a matter of fact very loose.

It has been 30 years since i used blackpower and those were an 1851 Navy and a 1860 army and i had the book and they told me the size ball to use with both. i remember that it was desired to shave some lead when loading. well this one sure will not and that was the biggest available. under .50 size.

So tell me, please, what it should be. surely it would not take say .540 ball. i bought the only patches available and they were marked for a .54 cal. i figured i would just trim them some if i had to. they are prelubed.

if i were to load this ball with one of these patches i guess that would hold it in but it seems it would not be accurate at all as the ball is so loose in the bore.

will someone please give me some guidance.

[bubba.50]

you have to use a cloth patch with your gun. a lot of people use pillow ticking. use any kind of cloth you have handy. probably need about 10 to 15 thousandths for proper fit. be sure to lube the patch and make sure the bullet is seated all the way down on the powder. good luck and enjoy shootin' your gun, bubba. you can also buy pre-lubed patches from most any place that sells muzzle-loader supplies.

[Redtail1949]

bubba.50

i have some Thompson Center Arms Cotton Patches .015 Thick for Roundballs pre lubed with Bore Butter. it says for .54 and .56 caliber on the package. I guess i could trim off alittle and use them? it was all they had along with CCI #11 Caps.

The caps are a little loose on the nipple. but should do till i shoot them all up.

So what your saying is its the Patches that will hold the bullet in even though the ball does not fit tight against rifling?

I have a can of Real Black powder what would you think of about 35 to 35 grains as a load? I would just weigh it in my powder scale right? just like measuring for smokeless.

thank you for your response and any further advice you may give.

[bubba.50]

i wouldn't worry about that little bit of difference in the patch diameter unless you determine after shootin' it a bit that it may be affectin' accuracy.as you note: they're already used for two different calibers. you can squeeze the caps a bit with your fingers to make them fit the nipple a bit better. the winchester caps i got at wally-world fit tight and i had to fire twice to get them to go off in my ruger old army so that may be an option there. as for powder charge-that sounds about right but you may wanta start with about 25gr 'til ya see what's what. good luck with your gun and good shootin' friend. my opinion and worth what you paid for it, bubba.

[Redtail1949]

thanks bubba i will give her try tomorrow i hope, thanks for the help

[bedbugbilly]

Redtail - Great advice from Bubba - you should be all set with what he told you.  Since it has been a while since you've shot - something that he didn'tmention is that if you use cloth you have laying around for patching the ball - make sure it is a natural fiber - such as cotton or linen.  Don't use a manmade cloth as they can melt when you fire your pistol or rifle and really mess your bore up.  As far as lube for the patches, it's been a while since I've bought any of it so I can't remember what it is called but someone put me on to a "water soluable oil" that was available through NAPA autoparts.  I would "cut" it with water - rip strips of pillowticking the right width for the caliber rifle I was shooting - soak it in the solution and then lay them out to dry.  The water would evaporate and leave the patch oily.  I'd roll the strip up and store it in a 35mm film tube - easy to carry in the possibles bag - and tie the strip I was using on to my shooting bag strap.  I never use precut patches - I prefer to  lay the strip over the muzzle, use a short starter and then trim the patch with a knife before I ram and seat the ball.  Everybody has their favorite patch lube and ways of doing things and what works best for the rifle or pistol they are shooting.  Part of the fun is experimenting to see what works best.  Good luck with your new pistol - it sounds like a nice one and I'm sure you'll have lots of fun with it and that's what it's all about!

Bubba - no offense intended on my follow-up to your great advice - I figured I would just mention it about the patching material since it's been a while for him.  There isn't anything worse than ending up with a "polyester pistol" (or rifle).    Good shootin' everybody!

[stewswanson]

Please do not measure BP by weight. Loads are measured by volume not weight. You
may want to get a powder measure of use a flask with a calibrated tip. I use 30 gr.(by volume) with a 490 ball and .015 patch.
Stew

[Redtail1949]

measure by volume only? not by powder scale? Ok .. will do i will have to get something to measure it i will look at the local place tomorrow.

thanks...

[Redtail1949]

just went to verify what i bought today..the guy sold me two 4 in1 Thompson Center loaders and he told me they were marked for grains. well they are not and i just went to the loading room and checked no powder measure. (my oldest son many years ago took a lot of my guns the two black powder pistols were in that mess too and sold them for drugs) i guess he got the old brass powder measure i had as i can not find it now. i did check my powder and it is Geox FFFg would that be okay for this pistol? He missed that too.

dam every time i think about what my son did it still makes me mad as hell.

[bubba.50]

fffg is what most people use in pistols as it burns a little better in the short barrels. pm me your address and i will send you a measure as i have an extra. notice i said i'll send you one, not i'll sell you one. hope you get your pistol goin' and it does well for you, bubba.

[Redtail1949]

Thank you bubba it will be greatly appreciated PM on the way.

[Redtail1949]

i got a question about accuracy with this gun. if the ball is not tight in the bore but is held by the patch how on earth could it be accurate? i remember loading the .44 and .36 revolvers i had and it was desired to shave off the ball when it was seated. was it that way so it would engage the rifling? this ball .490 would not engage the rifling at all . it will roll into the barrel and out.

does the patch somehow provide the spin by engaging the rifling when fired?

maty be a stupid question but just asking cause it does not seem right to me. but admittedly i do not know anything about blackpowder to amount to a hill of beans.

[AtlLaw]

Short answer, the correct size patch (width - usually .010 or .015) holds the ball tightly against the lands.  Pull a ball and you probably will see the weave of the patch imprinted on the ball.  The part of the patch that is not between the ball and the lands, that is in the grooves, fills the groove enough to impart spin to the ball.

Check out the paper patch forum.  I'll bet they have a detailed explanation of the paper patch principle.  Same thing...   'cept used with cartridges guns instead of muzzle loaders. 

[Redtail1949]

AtLaw:

Thanks for the information..it really had me thinking about that one just did not look right. Thanks I will check through all the BP stuff I might just learn something.

[stewswanson]

Regarding the patches. A fellow who shoots a Lymans Plains Pistol at our Woods Walk
events goes and finds his patches at a few targets where the ground is clear or when we have snow to see how the fit is working. I suppose you can see the "print" of the rifling and judge if it is evenly distributed.
Stew

[RhinoDave]

"So what your saying is its the Patches that will hold the bullet in even though the ball does not fit tight against rifling?"

I hope that you know that this pistol does not load like a C&B revolver. You do not load the ball by itself and then place the lubed patch in on top. You lay the the patch over the muzzle and then place the RB on top of it and press it into the muzzle so the patch wraps around the ball and compresses against the rifling in the bore. If you already know this, forgive me for questioning but sometimes the obvious escapes me.

[Redtail1949]

rhinodave:

no problem (i do know) at all i much rather have you warn me of something in the interest of my safety than let me blow my head off. I appreciate your concern.

thanks.

[Redtail1949]

well i took it out to the NRA Whittington Center Range today and did my first firings with it. 20 rounds with 30 grains if fffg recoil was stiff but she worked just fine. i was not really trying to group or anything just try it out. at 25 yards i was about 5- 8 inch groups. certainly good enough in a chest size target. i would hate like heck to be on the recieving end of that ball.

i put 4 rounds into a couple of 2x4 boards set in front of a rotting stump. damage was massive and the stump surely died..lol.

the trigger guard wacked my fingers pretty hard and i learned fast to hold on tight. now i will sit down and try to work up a load for accuracy using a rest. i am glad i was able to shoot it and can only imagine4 a man across a card table taking that ball in the chest. gives me alot of respect for the old timer guns.

thanks for the measure Bubba.50 i think that 30 grains is a pretty stiff load and i am gonna try to find a loading manual for black powder pistols somewhere.

[bubba.50]

you might try goin' down one notch on the measure to 20gr and try that. ffg powder may also reduce recoil a tad. somewhere up in the classified section was a book you could use. it was listed "fadala book" don't remember if for sale or for trade and can't find it right now. it's a book written by sam fadala and it is all about loading blackpowder guns. one of the graybeard sponsors: midsouth shooters supply, has it listed for $13.50. it is: lyman blackpowder handbook & loading manual by sam fadala. order # is: 015-9827100. good luck and have fun shootin' your pistol, bubba.