Author Topic: Cannon Flint Lock Pistol Thing  (Read 4860 times)

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Offline Soot

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Cannon Flint Lock Pistol Thing
« on: January 14, 2010, 06:28:41 AM »
This is weird. Early 19th Century Patent Flintlock Pistol for Igniting Cannons: Here

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Cannon Flint Lock Pistol Thing
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2010, 06:44:46 AM »
This outfit is in Canada, we have had their wares discussed here last year.....
while they have a nice web site and what appear to be nice reproductions
there are MANY reports of people spending their money and not getting
the product. So if you are thinking of buying from them RUN AWAY!
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Cannon Flint Lock Pistol Thing
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2010, 09:00:58 AM »
This video has been posted here before: It's of a South African ML cannon competition, and near the end you can see a crewman fire the far cannon (a field gun) with a flintlock pistol. The anouncer states that the cannoneer is using an "emergency pistol," because the cannon suffered a misfire.


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RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: Cannon Flint Lock Pistol Thing
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2010, 02:22:19 PM »
That was just a standard flintlock pistol, not the same thing.  I've never seen someone fire a cannon using a pistol.  I don't really see why there would be an advantage to it over priming and using a linstock.

Offline Artilleryman

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Re: Cannon Flint Lock Pistol Thing
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2010, 03:12:29 PM »
The object of the firing seems to be a race to see who could fire three rounds the fastest.   This something I don't believe in doing.
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Cannon Flint Lock Pistol Thing
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2010, 06:50:22 AM »
Agreed, Norm; entertaining people with a competition that could easily end in disaster, doesn't seem like a very intelligent undertaking. To me, it would be more enjoyable watching these gents fire their cannons in a safer manner.

That was just a standard flintlock pistol, not the same thing.  I've never seen someone fire a cannon using a pistol.  I don't really see why there would be an advantage to it over priming and using a linstock.

The advantage gained would be in the quickness achieved in firing a cannon at a moving target, and in the case of sea battles that would also include a moving platform.
I don't think this Canadian company would just make this pistol up out of whole cloth, so there probably exists some original model that they copied, but I don't recall ever reading about pistols being used to fire naval cannons in the interim between slow match/quick match, and the widespread use of cannon locks. Maybe the announcer at the Capetown cannon demonstration had it right; could it be that this type of flinlock with the screw on small diam. barrel, (to direct the jet right into the vent) was meant to use on cannons that misfired?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Double D

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  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Re: Cannon Flint Lock Pistol Thing
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2010, 08:14:23 AM »
I would not want to be holding onto the pistol if the special barrel was in contact with cannon when it fires.  Not only vent blow back but recoiling cannon.

Has anyone tried to contact the group in Capetown and suggest they might want to review their safety practices.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Cannon Flint Lock Pistol Thing
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2010, 08:53:16 PM »
I would not want to be holding onto the pistol if the special barrel was in contact with cannon when it fires.  Not only vent blow back but recoiling cannon.

Has anyone tried to contact the group in Capetown and suggest they might want to review their safety practices.

Artillerybuff left a comment on YouTube about the unsafe practices shown in the video.

I wouldn't exactly look forward to firing a cannon with one of those pistols, but if (and this is pure speculation on my part) this type of flintlock were actually meant to fire a cannon that had misfired, the alternatives might lead me to give it a try. If I were involved in a pitched battle at sea, with my cannon experiencing a misfire, and after clearing the vent, repricking the powder bag, repriming the vent, then still having no success firing it with the linstock, I think I'd give a shot at trying to get it to ignite with one of these pistols; it seems like the length of an arm combined with the length of the barrel would give a man enough distance away from the trucks and carriage flying backwards, to get the barrel right on the vent and safely fire the cannon. The alternative would be to hang out the gun port (even with the gun pulled all the way out of battery) with the ladel, and unload the projectile and powder bag, then reload the piece.  

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Cannon Flint Lock Pistol Thing
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2010, 12:11:21 PM »
I watched the movie, "Lord Jim" on INSTANT Netflix last night. The pair of cannon (Asian?) were ignited by clearly visable flint locks. 8)
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Cannon Flint Lock Pistol Thing
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2010, 09:26:44 AM »
Rich,
I was thinking about the movies too, and I think that the same thing might have been shown for dramatic effect in a pirate movie, but I can't recall which movie.

In the real world, I've looked for some form of evidence that this type of flintlock that was made specifically to fire a cannon was ever actually manufactured, or used in the age of sail, and so far I haven't been able to turn up a thing.
I saw this pistol while looking for artillery items in the AIOC weapons collection from the post that Carronader opened, and at first I had an ah hah moment, thinking that it was one of that type of gun, but now I don't think so.
When I first saw this pistol I thought that because the barrel was 'attached', and also of such a narrow diameter, that it must be one of those cannon firing models, but on second thought; who says so! This pistol may just be a small caliber; and why would the maker go to the trouble of having a front sight on the barrel? There is nothing in the Art Institute's description of this piece, that mentions firing cannon.  

"August Wetschgi, German Flintlock Magazine Pistol, Lorenzoni System, c.1700-1800."
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Cannon Flint Lock Pistol Thing
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2010, 01:12:31 AM »
I doubt that the pistol in the photo ever fired a cannon, it is an early breech loader,

which cost it's owner a fair sum of money, and as stated why have a front sight?

Also barrel is short in comparison to the one used to touch off a cannon.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Cannon Flint Lock Pistol Thing
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2010, 02:41:59 AM »
I can remember when 50-60 years ago, a reproduction flintlock "tinder starter" was offered. It looked exactly like a pistol but didn't have a barrel. It was abbreviated at the point foward of the lock. At that point, there was a metal fork pointed downward that acted as legs. They allowed the device to rest upright when not in use by using the butt and 2 prongs as contact points.

I saw it advertised as a "powder tester" and as a "fire starter"; an elaborate flint & steel. I can imagine its being used to ignite a slow match or portfire but its role as a "powder tester", escapes me? I almost bought one for the mantle.

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Offline KABAR2

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Re: Cannon Flint Lock Pistol Thing
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2010, 04:14:07 AM »
Richard,

It wasn't that long ago, back in the late 70's & 80's Navy arms and Dixie Gun Works had tinder lighters both finished and in kit form,

Dixie still sells them,  I have several of the kits buried somewhere in the garage.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline thelionspaw

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Re: Cannon Flint Lock Pistol Thing
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2010, 04:40:52 AM »
Thanks Allen. So they were still offering them then?  They were made unpopular by Seaman "Three fingers Brown", a cannoneer on HMS Lefty :'(

Are you enjoying the books? I think "Brown" is in one of them ;)

Rich
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Offline KABAR2

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Re: Cannon Flint Lock Pistol Thing
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2010, 08:42:24 AM »
I've been too busy with work and trying to get the house back in order to set down and read them,

hopefully soon...
]
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Cannon Flint Lock Pistol Thing
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2010, 09:33:23 AM »
I've seen the tinder starters before, and there are a lot of examples of the powder testers available on the net, but I can't find one real period example of that darn cannon firing flintlock anywhere.
George F. Harding evidently collected a lot of different things in his lifetime, these powder testers are also part of the Art Institute of Chicago's collection.

Belgian, Liege
Guillaume Berleur
Belgian, early 19th century
Flintlock Powder Tester, early 19th century
Steel, walnut
L. 31 cm (12 3/16 in.)
George F. Harding Collection, 1982.2326


Belgian (?)
Percussion Powder Tester, c. 1830
Walnut, brass, steel
L. 15.5 cm (6 in.)
George F. Harding Collection, 1982.2999



This is a slightly off topic, but you guys were talking about the 'Golden Age of Sailing' books that KABAR got, and as I said, Mr. Harding collected a lot of different items in his time. I had no idea that ships figureheads could be worth that kind of money. This article is from a website called "LiveAuctionTalk."

Women in Purple & Blue dress; from the Brig Martha; full-length figure; 1850-1860; 54 inches high; sold for $270,000. Photo courtesy of Northeast Auctions.


HARDING MUSEUM SHIPS' FIGUREHEADS SAIL AT NORTHEAST AUCTIONS

The ships lined up as far as the eye could see on the New York waterfront in the 19th century. The bows of these ships jutted out over the wharves showing off their massive rigging and their mind boggling display of figureheads.

Just about every merchant vessel displayed a carved and painted figure gazing outward. Lit from below by flickering reflections of waves, or mirrored in the water, these figureheads were the art work of the seafaring world.

Some call it idol worship, but the crew believed figureheads were endowed with magical powers which would keep them safe. Like Neptune’s hostages, any damage to them meant certain disaster at sea.

The ships these figureheads belonged to are long gone, but the wooden effigies remain behind like tombstones. Ever watchful of intruders, a typical American full-length, life-size figurehead leaned forward and was slightly detached from the bow.

American carvers used everyday life for inspiration. Wives and daughters of ship owners made good models as well as kings, generals, eagles, serpents, and even figures of Lady Liberty.

Smaller ships used busts, heads, and half and three-quarter-length figures with scroll and leaf carving. Figureheads, carved stern boards and billet heads were some of the only carving found on early sailing ships. The attention to detail in many of these carvings makes them real works of art. They’re highly collectible today.

As a tradition, figureheads extend as far back as ancient China and Egypt. If these wooden effigies could speak, what might they say about the storms they knew and the sailors they buried?

Figureheads, like the ships they came from, are perishable. Most of the wooden survivors date from the 19th century. This was the golden age, a time when carvers gilded and colored their sculpture.

Sometimes ship builders hired master carvers. Many of the best English examples were carved by local carvers working on small sailing vessels of 200 tons and under. They were often oblivious to artistic trends.

American early-20th century carvers like John Haley Bellamy were regarded as serious artists. Bellamy made his living carving ship eagles. He rarely signed his work but his eagles were so lifelike they stand apart from all others.

Bellamy’s most famous work, the Lancaster eagle figurehead, is on permanent display at the Mariner's Museum, Newport News, Virginia. Weighing 3,200 pounds with an eighteen-foot wingspan, it’s an engineering marvel.

Yesterday’s nautical memories make great collectibles today. The most valuable figureheads still have the original paint. This can be a real predicament for collectors because salt air and water caused most paint to deteriorate rapidly.

Finding an antique figurehead for sale in its original condition can be a difficult task. As a result, collectors sometimes turn to reproductions.

On Aug. 20-21, Northeast Auctions in Portsmouth, N.H., featured a selection of vintage figureheads in its auction. The figureheads came from the collection of politician and real estate magnate George F. Harding Jr., and the Harding Museum in Chicago. Harding died in 1939. Here are some current values.

Figureheads

Woman in green dress; probably American; bust-length figure; 28 1/2 inches long; $13,920.

Young woman primly attired in blue-and-white and holding a book; three-quarter length figure; 1850-1870; 48 inches high; $16,240.

Young woman in classical dress; American; three-quarter length figure; 43 inches long; $22,040.

Gentleman with mutton chops; English; half-length figure on billet scroll base; circa 1830-40; 30 inches high; $30,160.

Young Lord Palmerston; English; three-quarter length figure; circa 1820-30; 46 inches long; $204,000.

Woman in purple and blue dress; American; from the Brig Martha; full-length figure; 1850-1860; 54 inches high; $270,000.

 
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RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Cannon Flint Lock Pistol Thing
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2010, 05:52:23 AM »
Well, I found an example of another one, and this one is a percussion pistol, so the (rare?) use of these igniters must have spanned a period of time in history. 




Open this link, and scroll down to Pistols; the cannon igniter is the second item shown.
Cannon Igniter Percussion Pistol

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.