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Offline teamnelson

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Haiti - Lessons Learned
« on: January 15, 2010, 11:06:35 AM »
Reading some of the news coming out of Haiti should be informative for folks on this forum. Some highlights I've noted:
- Gangs of looters armed with machetes.
- Water is currently the most valuable resource.
- Relief is bottlenecking at the distribution points. Good intentions don't mean relief experienced.

Anything else you've noticed?
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Offline Almtnman

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2010, 11:22:34 AM »
I've noticed that when disaster of any kind strikes heavy populated areas, it doesn't take long for looting to surface while waiting for help to arrive. But when disaster hits lesser populated areas, the population in those areas seems to jump in and get things back in order on their own without much grumbling, looting or depending on the government to do it for you.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2010, 12:28:25 PM »
Call me a racist if you like, I won't even argue the point. But I've also noticed that when things bad happen in mostly black areas looting and rioting occur but when similar things happen in mostly white areas not so much so. Hmm.
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Offline efremtags

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2010, 02:02:44 PM »
looting and rioting date back as far as civilization hs been established.

It seems that the civilization is the first thing to become un-civilized in any crisis.

A friend of mine worked for a water dept. He had anwered a call related to a big building without water for 8 hrs. About 100 tennants. People were on edge and ready to fight after 8 hrs without water.

take that and add a few hundred thousand people, and fight or flight becomes SOP.

That's why I moved to the country. Mainly so I could make my own water and power and buffer from "civilization" should a disaster occur. At least my driveway is long enough to give a little stand off distance with my AK.
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Offline Victor3

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2010, 01:32:11 AM »
 I've noted that not enough of the decades of aid money from other countries (>$120,000,000 from the US alone just last year) has been invested in rebar or birth control.

 Both could have prevented a lot of death and suffering...

 
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Offline Almtnman

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2010, 03:30:35 AM »
From a New York Times story:. Here is a quote from that news article:

"She said a Coast Guard helicopter flew over the United Nations compound and could see that there were people there trapped under building debris. Thousands of residents were seen assembled outside the gates at a government facility in the city, and large groups were also assembled in other streets and public areas. The pilot of her ship’s helicopter reported seeing people working in several areas to dig out survivors. But for the most part, she said, the city appeared to be waiting for rescue and relief efforts to arrive." Comment to this news article: So, I think we can deduce a lesson from that, and Haiti's status as the poorest nation in this hemisphere. Waiting for other people to bootstrap you is not a viable strategy."
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Offline bearmgc

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2010, 09:59:14 AM »
Aside from the first three originally mentioned, I can't think of any other relevant info to be learned from Haiti. There are far too many differences between Haiti and the US to begin with. We have the ability, if we choose to prepare for disaster, whereas Haitians are pretty poor/destitute to begin with. For us, a primary concern in the Western US would be potable water. But we can plan somewhat for that as well.
Anyone in the US, who doesn't have basic necessities stored up, is a fool.
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Offline nessmuk101

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2010, 03:13:05 PM »
Think about New Orleans and Katrina.  Same thing, some people helping and some waiting for the government.
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Offline myronman3

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2010, 01:59:59 PM »
i was going to start a post and y'all beat me to it.   kinda happening just like the guy on the other post laid it out.   

  i dont have tv, and only hear stuff on the radio.  the most recent update was that they had delivered 90,000 pounds of relief supplies; like that was an accomplishment.   f.y.i., that is barely more than a semi truck can carry.  all these days and one semi truck?  it is insane.  if this dont wake you up, not much will. 
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2010, 04:06:22 PM »
I'm taking a class on National Strategic Decision Making right now (timely) and I brought up the concept of entropy to relate it to Haiti. Entropy meaning the more complex a system the less efficient it becomes. Haiti, from a relief standpoint, is thousands of agencies and people scrambling to beat each other to help out some folks who seem disinterested in their own situation. Those who are scrambling get the self-satisfaction of "doing good" (that's important) but on the other end, the relief is less effective than if a single entity (like FEDEX) ran the operation.

Which is why my survival plan has no expectation for outside help. I don't even bank on the standard "FEMA will be there in a week." Ha.
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Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2010, 04:34:16 PM »
The airport is gridlocked, the ports cranes are destroyed, Aid is being airlifted by helicopter. Its not a scenario that is conducive to be efficient. Most all of the people there that were affected by the earthquake were living in squalor already. Its like the perfect storm for catastrophe. One lesson we can pick up on is what TN said, Don't bank on expectation of assistance be your own relief.

I'm betting that there are some folk there that are in the rural areas that are making it on their own, homeless maybe but making it nonetheless. We wont hear about any of them. This is a "crisis" after all.
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Offline lgm270

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2010, 04:42:43 PM »
Haiti has been a basket case ever since it was established.    They slaughtered all the dirty rotten white people and for 200 years they've been reaping the whirllwind.

Everybody talks about Katrina  and New ORleans.  There was lots of devastation in the Gulf States, but no looting and civil disturbance like in the "Chocolate City."  There was a huge flood in the Missouri area...no looting, rioting or mayhem. 

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Offline The Hermit

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2010, 04:36:18 PM »
On Fox news this morning, it was mentioned that the military was confiscating firearms.
Sound familiar?
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Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2010, 04:57:01 PM »
Quote from: The Hermit on January 21, 2010, 04:36:18 PM
On Fox news this morning, it was mentioned that the military was confiscating firearms.
Sound familiar?

Yea go figger that! Seems its the first thing that comes to their mind. But then the "locals" aint been to concealed carry classes and prolly dont have exemplary records either!
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“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

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Offline billy_56081

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2010, 05:11:39 PM »
Like I always say, a good old bottle of plain old household bleach would go a long long ways in this situation.
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Offline Almtnman

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2010, 01:51:07 AM »
Quote from: The Hermit on January 21, 2010, 04:36:18 PM
On Fox news this morning, it was mentioned that the military was confiscating firearms.
Sound familiar?

On some of the news I watched, it was reported that some of the ham radio operators there that was trying to help were being fired on by Haitians. Do you think maybe that's the reason for the confiscation?
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"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."~~Thomas Jefferson

Offline lgm270

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2010, 03:06:00 AM »
Quote from: Almtnman on January 22, 2010, 01:51:07 AM
Quote from: The Hermit on January 21, 2010, 04:36:18 PM
On Fox news this morning, it was mentioned that the military was confiscating firearms.
Sound familiar?

On some of the news I watched, it was reported that some of the ham radio operators there that was trying to help were being fired on by Haitians. Do you think maybe that's the reason for the confiscation?

Same thing happened in Los Angeles during the "Rodney King Riots" in 1992.  Firefighters and emergency personnel were shot at by our "historically oppressed minorities" whose neighborhoods the firefighters were fighting to save.    In the "Chocolate City" of New Orleans, in the aftermath of Katrina, rescue personnel were fired upon by "historically oppressed minorities." 

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Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2010, 11:59:46 AM »
I think I'm seeing a trend here, So we should eliminate "historically oppressed minorities" maybe! or at least confiscate em!

Down side if illegal immigration continues at this pace "WE" will be the "oppressed minorities" SOON!
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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2010, 12:27:53 PM »
Most important survival skill I have come up with is to not live in a destitute country. If you must, don't pick an island. Living in a large city is a poor idea too.

Looks to me that after surviving the initial few hours having good walking shoes and water purification capabilities are important. A well stocked med kit would appear to be very important as well.

When your house collapses on top of all your pre planned gear it would sure slow down the plan though. Makes me wonder if the attic may be a good place to store a few things as well as the basement.

A realistic view of the what happens during disaster shouldn't be wasted. We all saw what happened after katrina and should have prepared accordingly, this is another reminder to not plan on the gov't being able to make it all better tomorrow.

Shelter, food, water, fuel and clothing just like the Boy Scouts, be prepared.

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Offline Almtnman

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2010, 01:49:51 PM »
Quote from: Oldshooter on January 22, 2010, 11:59:46 AM
I think I'm seeing a trend here, So we should eliminate "historically oppressed minorities" maybe! or at least confiscate em!

Down side if illegal immigration continues at this pace "WE" will be the "oppressed minorities" SOON!

A better option would be to eliminate government entitlement programs so that people become self sufficient on themselves, not big brother.
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"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."~~Thomas Jefferson

Offline The Hermit

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2010, 03:42:06 PM »
Haiti, Katrina, etc. I think we all picked up some valuable lessons from these incidences. Its kinda funny, but what we learned in Boy Scouts ( be prepared ), says it all.


     The Hermit
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2010, 04:16:23 PM »
Almtnman, you hit the nail on the head.  Government is the problem not the solution.  I heard a conservative black preacher one time say that by the time the blacks began to pick themselves up after the War between the States the depression hit.  Then they began to pick themselves up in the 50's after WWII and the Great Society programs of Johnson tore them apart again by rewarding teen pregnacy, unmarried mothers, etc.  A poor young woman, black or white, can get welfare, food stamps, WIC, and other freebees.  Why work?, Why try to make things better.  Government keeps giving out free fish, but doesn't teach people to fish for themselves. 
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Offline Badnews Bob

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2010, 07:35:47 AM »
One thing I learned is.......Don't go to Haiti. ::)
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2010, 11:10:09 AM »
Quote from: Badnews Bob on January 23, 2010, 07:35:47 AM
One thing I learned is.......Don't go to Haiti. ::)

I didn't even learn that one. I ALREADY knew better than to go there.
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Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline lgm270

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2010, 11:29:32 AM »
Quote from: Oldshooter on January 22, 2010, 11:59:46 AM
I think I'm seeing a trend here, So we should eliminate "historically oppressed minorities" maybe! or at least confiscate em!

Down side if illegal immigration continues at this pace "WE" will be the "oppressed minorities" SOON!

"Eliminate historically oppressed minorities"?   

Sounds good to me.
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Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2010, 12:33:12 PM »
Quote from: Graybeard on January 24, 2010, 11:10:09 AM
Quote from: Badnews Bob on January 23, 2010, 07:35:47 AM
One thing I learned is.......Don't go to Haiti. ::)

I didn't even learn that one. I ALREADY knew better than to go there.

Yep a visit to haiti has not been on my bucket list for quite sometime! But No need to there, THEY will be coming here I'm sure. So save the airfare to support em!
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Offline don heath

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2010, 09:08:42 PM »
What I learned is...Americans should buy more mexican made goods than ones from China...The better off people become in mexico the fewer illegal immigrants you will have...And as I know only too well...migrant workers have no roots, no back up of family and no tradition in the communtiy to rely on in times of trouble.

Zimbabwe imported labour from Zambia, Mozambique and Malawi for nearly 100 years. When things first went wrong in the capital Harare in 1997, it was these 'migrant workers' who rioted and burnt as much property as they could rather than the indigenous Black folk.

The 'locals' Be they Black or White have a home, not just a place to live. The word is 'kamusha' and means litterally your ancestral home. When a local black is out of work, teenage and pregnant (in a society without any wealfare) they simply 'go Kamusha' - back to their rural home where they can sit in a hut, pick banana's and mango's off the nearest tree and keep themselves alive with very little cash input. I would guess that most of the 'rural' folk around me get by quite well on less than US$10 per month. The migrants with no 'home base' have no plan when there is no work or they get injured or whatever, then there is only theaft and begging as life support options. (of course, the government nationalised all 'ancestral homes belong to White folk in 1999)
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Offline rzwieg

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2010, 10:50:07 PM »
Educational as always don.

Most of Haiti's problems are due to their culture. The Dominican Republic is a comparable paradise.
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Offline don heath

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2010, 12:30:44 AM »
Culture???  There is more culture in a tub of yogurt than there is in the whole of Haiti!  I have been there (it is wonderful the places the Zimbabwe government sends you to on official buisness)!
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Haiti - Lessons Learned
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2010, 02:43:07 AM »
Nafta didn't work for Mexico.  Their labor costs were much higher than China's.  They average $0.75 per hour in Mexico, $0.10 per hour in China.  How can the Mexican's compete? 
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