Haiti - Lessons Learned

[SHOOTALL]

The UN has been there for years spending American money and nothing has changed why would it be better now ? While planes with food is not allowed to land left wing reporters are . I hate to see people suffer ( children ) but it seems their own people cause the problem . We see the same in parts of Africa with the war lords etc. At this point drop the supplies in to areas where its needed and spread it out so the bad guys can't get it all . Or send in the military and let them secure it their way .

[teamnelson]

From a preparedness perspective,
- 4000 amputees and counting.
- closed fractures are being asked to come back later; open fractures are priority.
- meds are low
- gangrene expected in high numbers
- bacterial outbreaks have claimed many young and sick
- post operative care is minimal; still working on trauma
- catatonic folks; so taken by shock or grief they've become dysfunctional.

All of that is to be expected. And they have a massive effort reacting. How will it be for our scenario?

[Dixie Dude]

The docks are damaged with I think, only one working, limits ships.  They only have one runway at their airport, so planes in and out are limited.  Looks like some should learn how to fish around the island, for food.  Also, what is the problem with going in and out throught the Dominican Republic?  They have a working port or ports.  Why not use military landing craft on the beaches?  I know tents are in big demand, as well as cots. 

[teamnelson]

DR is a staging area for everybody so a lot is flowing over their border.
As for fishing? Guessing the self-reliant Haitians outside of port au prince are carrying on okay. From my experience cameras draw a crowd, and that's only of a certain type of folks.

[Oldshooter]

One Lesson the Baptist Church in Idaho learned in Haiti:

If you are gonna take young children out to take care of them you gotta pay off somebody!
If you are gonna take young children out to put them in to the sex slave market you gotta pay off "the same"  somebody!

If the OP does not feel this is a lesson learned in Haiti, I'll remove it!

Edited to clarify hopefully.

[teamnelson]

Hoping they learned the former and not the latter.

To make a silk purse ... every crappy 3rd world country I've been to (quite a few) runs on bribes; when we are a crappy 3rd world country so will we. It'll start off as a barter system and wind up crooked.

[Oldshooter]

Sorry, I did not make myself clear TN, I did not mean to impune the Bapstist's attemps to "Save the children"

I really think from what I have read is that they meant well, but did not "GET THE PROPER CLEARANCE"  if you know what I mean.

Had they had bad motives and paid the toll nothing would have been said. It is interesting how the "State controlled" media is handling this event though.

I agree with you about  when "WE" are a third world country, but it already works, and we have just begun the trip there!

 I have only been to one, its south of the Rio grande river but its moving north. But that is another thread!

[45-70.gov]

On Fox news this morning, it was mentioned that the military was confiscating firearms.
Sound familiar?

looks  like  your SHTF  gun  needs to be concealable

my  little 357 smith  640  as  got  your  confiscated  12 gage  pump  beat

[teamnelson]

45-70, that's why my one gun solution is getting shorter. If you're not low hanging fruit, you don't get picked.

[Couger]

I've noticed that when disaster of any kind strikes heavy populated areas, it doesn't take long for looting to surface while waiting for help to arrive. But when disaster hits lesser populated areas, the population in those areas seems to jump in and get things back in order on their own without much grumbling, looting or depending on the government to do it for you.

AGREED!!

Also the "city versus country" folk seemed to have that same [American] attitude the gubmnt "owes us!"  You're not "helping enough!"  Or "fast enough!"

The country folk are more independent, solution and results oriented!

Plus the frikken "grandstanding" poliwhores and libbtirds snafu-ed the one working airport until American ingenuity got two more airstrips functioning!

There were also the 20+ Americans missing in the town's "best motel" that apparantly pancaked on all its victims, and the U.S. state department was VERY SLOW ascertaining the status and whereabouts of the missing Americans.  Combine that with Katrina and any moron ought to figure out "we're on our own" before ANY disaster occurs!

Yeah .... dughhhh! I hate city folk and those types who despise and make fun of rural folks.  Because their attitudes and values [lack of] will get others killed!

[lgm270]

Me too Alm.

[don heath]

You can also tell the extent to which the 'disaster' and 'slow delivery of supplies' are media events by the fact that bodies are being burried not eaten...In Lumbumbashi there are always (obviously) human parts for sale in the meat bazars, along with the usual mix of Monkey, duiker and fish.

If People were starving, the late neighbor looks pretty good - and when you see canablism in a country where it isn't traditional...then you know things are bad... Up until that point, I cannot help wondering how many of the folk mobbing the food distribution centres hadn't had a decent meal in weeks before the earthquake and are now making the most out of a free handout. To be sure, there are many, many genuine cases- but if you fed the children, the injured and the elderly, I doubt there would be any deaths from starvation- as for clean water...most folk have never had access to that anyway- some big filter systems and you would be giving them better quality water than they are used to (again for the kids and injured...different story).  AID is all too often about jobs for social do gooders, and enrichment of local politicians/strong guys. In 1999 a World bank Survey in Zim reconed 7% of Aid money actually went to help the intended recipients. The rest got spent on Admin, siphoned off along the way, made the trucking companies rich etc...

[jlwilliams]

Don, that just floored me.  I don't want to seem xenophobic, but some foreign cultures really are stunning.

  At the risk of hijacking the thread a little; just what human parts seem to be the favorites at the Lumbumbashi meat markets? 

  Do you know if canabalism is practiced as a ritual type of activity?  Is the human meat thought of as medicinal?  Or is it just deemed to be....tasty?  A bit of long pig BBQ?

  Hijack over, back on target.  I think it will take a while to really evaluate hte Hatian disaster and really define any lessons learned.  It seems clear that a disaster hitting a place with such poor infrastructure to begin with is making for a harder time than would be experienced elsewhere.  The social structure of Haiti pre-disaster doesn't seem to be a big help either.  Time will tell.  Right now they are in the thick of it and we will see how it goes.

  My prayers and hopes are for their best.

[don heath]

Anywhere in that central chunk of Africa, people are regular features on the menue. No not ritual, just easy meat. In the CAR (it was Central African Empire!!! when I was there), it was not uncommon for the guy maning one of the gold dredges to get eaten and when his relief arrived they would find the remains next to the fire..got lonley or drunk and let his guard down...They don't call the big cast iron pots on three legs 'missionary pots' becuase the missionaries introduced them!

I try to stay far away from Lumbumbashi! Been into the market twice, and donwn the congo river to the sea once. Monkeys are generally split open and smoked, but left whole (with head removed). Gorrilas, Chimps  and people are chopped up, but a human leg still looks like a human leg...I did, at least study Biology at university and think I can tell the difference on some of the other parts...particularly as human bits are generally not skinned whereas the apes always are. (My French is too poor to understand the locals explanation of why). But a nice human rump tends to still have the skin on (and African people are not hairy).  I was told at a road side resturant in 1985 when I asked what the unusal meat was.."she was young but plump"- I just hoped the chef was talking about a chimp and not a girl, but I ate bananas and rice for the next three weeks.

[Dances with Geoducks]

Lesson One: Have lots of food and water, so you dont have to wait for someone else to give it to you.
Lesson Two: Have a big gun so no one takes what you have. Then wait out the rough times.

[jlwilliams]

  Thank you, Don.

  The current Hatian situation with the looting and mayhem reminds me of a story that came out of Katrina.  Story goes that a Japanese tourist with her grand daughter holed up in a hotel room.  She filled the tub with water and bought everything out of the vending machine before the power went out.  The real key to her survival came next.  When the authorities came around knocking on doors to bring people to the shelters (where mayhem and rape were rampant)  she and her little girl quietly didn't answer the door.  Later, as looters combed the area, she stayed quietly inside and away from the windows.  Long story short, she kept her head down and mouth shut untill the flood had receded (sp?), then when the worst had passed she came out.  In an urban environment where other people are as likely to rob or rape as they are to help, finding a place to gather and hold some meager resources and keeping out of sight is a good strategy.  Given that New Orleans is in America and therefor has more resources close by to be brought in, the disaster was shorter lived than in a third world country like Haiti.  Still, I imagine that as time goes on we will hear similar stories of people who survived the aftermath by avoiding people. 

[don heath]

Sad truth...most people are intrinsically evil. People in large numbers are often led by the most evil- the person with the strongest desire for self enrichment or preservation. Nice guys who think of others before themselves seldom have the drive to impose their will on the masses. Therefore, the 'mob' will never be there to try and make things right, to help dig out victims, to help dig up dammaged pipes or clear rubble so ambulances can get through. It takes a close knit community under a known leader in easy times to band up and do what is right.

Which is why in all the third world dives I have lived and worked in, only the most viscious dictators have lasted long

[lgm270]

Sad truth...most people are intrinsically evil. People in large numbers are often led by the most evil- the person with the strongest desire for self enrichment or preservation. Nice guys who think of others before themselves seldom have the drive to impose their will on the masses. Therefore, the 'mob' will never be there to try and make things right, to help dig out victims, to help dig up dammaged pipes or clear rubble so ambulances can get through. It takes a close knit community under a known leader in easy times to band up and do what is right.

Which is why in all the third world dives I have lived and worked in, only the most viscious dictators have lasted long

Very insightful.

[Almtnman]

An Interesting History Lesson about Haiti ...which we've failed to learn !
 
In the 1700's what is now Haiti was called the "Jewel of the Caribbean,"  and supplied about 40% of the world's sugar. In 1791 the government of France passed legislation to phase out slavery in its Caribbean colonies and grant the former Negro slaves citizenship. Rather than becoming citizens, Haiti's Negro population mass murdered all whites and Mulattoes who could not flee the black Island in time.

In 1804 only full blooded Negros remained and Haiti became the first Negro ruled nation. The Haitian revolution dominated America's debate over slavery. While both the north and the south agreed that slavery should be ended, southerners and a large percentage of northerners universally opposed having a large population of freed slaves living in their midst.. The Haitian "Revolution" was fresh in every one's mind.
 
Flash forward to 1915. The "Jewel of the Caribbean" is now a desolate cesspool, that is exporting almost no sugar. The United States decides to "take up the white man's burden" and send the US Marine Corps to rebuild Haiti's infrastructure and feed it's starving population. The United States gave huge amounts of money to Haiti and over-saw the building of 1,000 miles of road, telephone lines, modernized its port, and helped Haiti to start exporting sugar once again. The  U S also put an end to the thousands of bandits along Haiti's border with the Dominican Republic.

The US left in 1934 at the request of the then stabilized and very ungrateful Haitian government. Haiti immediately sank straight back into total desolation strife.

In 1973 the United State once again began playing a huge role in Haiti, giving the Island huge sums of money in handouts each year. In 1994 the Clinton administration once again sent the US military to Haiti to rebuild the Island's infrastructure.

In 1995 the Peace Corps went to Haiti in large numbers to train the Haitians in job skills. The US  government spent almost one Billion providing food and job training to the Haitians between 95 and 99. So when Obama says that Haiti has our "full, unwavering, support," they have already had our full support since 1915.
 

[45-70.gov]

SOME THINGS ARE JUST BETTER  LEFT ALONE

[Victor3]

 The US  government spent almost one Billion providing food and job training to the Haitians between 95 and 99. So when Obama says that Haiti has our "full, unwavering, support," they have already had our full support since 1915.
 

 I'm all for helping to provide for people in need, but only with my donated funds, and only to organizations and people I designate.

 The man who married my Wife and I founded http://www.waterwellsforafrica.org/.

 I can walk less than a mile and speak directly to Kurt or people we know who have gone to Malawi with his group. I don't have to wonder if money we give has produced the desired effect; I have credible witnesses that it has.

 Sure would be nice if I could get a warmfuzzy about where the heck my 'humanitarian aid' tax $$$ were going...

[Almtnman]

I saw a news article on the national news yesterday that said that all the money in donations that has been sent to Haiti that only 31 percent had been used and the other 69 percent had been put into savings account of some sort. Don't know what's going on with that, but I for one wouldn't want to give and know that it wasn't being used.

[billy_56081]

If you feed overpopulated starving things they become more overpopulated.

[Victor3]

If you feed overpopulated starving things they become more overpopulated.

 Most folks don't consider people as a "things" to be left to die without basic needs in the name of population control.

 Generally speaking, when people become prosperous birth rates goes down. Giving that a jump-start with free vasectomies along with other humanitarian aid would be a good idea IMO.

[45-70.gov]

If you feed overpopulated starving things they become more overpopulated.

 Most folks don't consider people as a "things" to be left to die without basic needs in the name of population control.

 Generally speaking, when people become prosperous birth rates goes down. Giving that a jump-start with free vasectomies along with other humanitarian aid would be a good idea IMO.

i  think  they should be left to die or prosper


so  who  is running a big fund raiser  for  vasectomies  and  tubalications

no  tax  breaks  for  getting  neutered
no  little welfare  increase  for a ''certificate  of sterilization''

[teamnelson]

When I was hired to run a relief NGO in HOA I read a book called The Road to Hell. It was written by a former member of the guilt industry ... a euphemism for aid & relief agencies. Documented waste fraud & abuse. Save the Children has been indicted numerous times for fraud ... they raised money from one county to help underprvileged kids in another, then turned it around and raised $ from the "underprivileged" neighborhood. Scam ended when a mom in upper middle class suburbia got the flyer and recognized her kids names as well as all the neighborhood kids many of whom drove bmws to prep school. A staffer had screwed up. But they're a protected charity. Most of my "competitors" in that business were eurotrash dope smokers who'd take the money, burn it up on overhead, pay outs, and a photo op, then move to the next crisis. I only give to people I know now.

Those missionaries made a legitimate mistake, but other groups do it intentionally and pay the right person.

[Forestgnome]

Think about New Orleans and Katrina.  Same thing, some people helping and some waiting for the government.

Except in Katrina people were forced to leave their stores of supplies and give up their guns. So much for a strategy!