Least Favorite Cartridge

[rem308]

For me it is the 45-70.  Not arguing that it is a bad cartridge, being as old as it is and still being popular today makes it a star.

BUT it amazes me that a cartridge can have such a large following of people who will argue black and blue that it will be as effective or better than 416 Rigby, 375 H&H... when the argument really is that you are not legally allowed to use it for big game in Africa.

It is just plain weird.

Also the 243 is a bit over rated, just never quite got the point of it, 223 and 308 seemed to be better options for me, especially the cost of ammo.  Mind you I am not an accuracy or velocity freak, I just like to have something bigger than most people would think is required. 

[kombi1976]

For me it is the 45-70.  Not arguing that it is a bad cartridge, being as old as it is and still being popular today makes it a star.

BUT it amazes me that a cartridge can have such a large following of people who will argue black and blue that it will be as effective or better than 416 Rigby, 375 H&H... when the argument really is that you are not legally allowed to use it for big game in Africa.

It is just plain weird.

I'm absolutely with you on that one.
Certainly, 45-70 was and is a successful American round which performs effectively and efficiently on any game from that continent.
You could ALMOST say it is the 375 H&H of the USA, especially since it is used for both close hunting and for long range hunting and target shooting.
But it was never designed for Africa.
Neither were the rifles it is mostly chambered in.
But you can't tell some people.
It's a bit like having a niece who can play the piano ok and saying she's better than Oscar Peterson simply because you prefer to listen to her.  

Also the 243 is a bit over rated, just never quite got the point of it, 223 and 308 seemed to be better options for me, especially the cost of ammo.  Mind you I am not an accuracy or velocity freak, I just like to have something bigger than most people would think is required.  

So you use your 223 for mice??

[fl.hillbilly]

  My least favorite , hymm , well the 300 winn bag /er win mag  .killed one deer with mine before i sold it to some sucker  . kicks like a bama mule  loud  as a small artillery piece  no fun to shoot . there is more to the story but i aint tellin 

[rem308]

 
[/quote]So you use your 223 for mice??
[/quote]

Ahem, does that make me a bad person.  Actually I use my 308 for everything now.  But getting a 375H&H for the bigger stuff.

[kombi1976]

Ahem, does that make me a bad person.

Absolutely not!
Remember the old saying....."You can never be overgunned unless you want to eat it."
Let's face it, there just isn't much meat on a mouse. 

Actually I use my 308 for everything now.  But getting a 375H&H for the bigger stuff.

So that would be rats, right? 

[tsanzone]

I’ve got to add my 2 cents to the 7.62x39 debate. I bought a Ruger M77 in this caliber with the intent of subsonic loading so that I could shoot without ear protection. Previously I disliked this cartridge because of the rifles that shot it. It has now become one of my favorite rifles, subsonic or full power. 1.) It is cheep to shoot: whether sub with cast bullets, or full loads with FMJ- its small case makes a pound of powder go a long way. 2.) Long tapered cases are easier to reload; you don’t need lube and you can just neck size by not pulling the sizing die all the way to the base. 3.) In a bolt gun I have hand loaded 125-grain bullets to 2650fps accurately. 4.) It can hunt varmints to Florida sized deer. I’m not saying it’s a do-all cartridge (I wouldn’t give up my 30-06 for it, or hunt long range varmint or mid-west deer with it), but it is versatile, fun to shoot and good cartridge in the right gun.

[tsanzone]

Oh ya, to answer the question; I haven’t yet found a cartridge that doesn’t have a place. Maybe I haven’t bought one yet. Also, for those that don’t understand the WSM or WSSMs, they are so you can shoot hunting rounds in M1A or AR15 actions. Some manufacturers of the AR15 platform have utilized the new cartridges, I don’t know why any of the semi auto manufacturers of .308 size rifles haven’t tried.

[kombi1976]

And here I was thinking the WSMs and WSSMs were based on the same principles as the PPC cartridges......short, thick powder space with sharp shoulders that promotes a complete burn within the case.
That and the theory that a short action makes a faster bolt stroke.
Who knows, the WSMs and WSSMs may work in AR15 or M1a uppers but I'd reckon there were few things further from the designer's thoughts than that idea.

[mannyrock]

Kombi,

   Regarding the WSSMs, what you say about them from a techical aspect may be true.  But, is the end result SO substantially bettter that you are willing to pay almost $50 a box for them in factory loads?  Especially when you can get the standard cartridges in factory loads for around $20 a box?  (.308 Win., .270 Win. .223, .243, .25-06).

   The answer (from the marketplace) is no.  These were a marketing scam to begin with, and are dying a quick death.

  Regards,

   Mannyrock

[nomosendero]

Kombi,

   Regarding the WSSMs, what you say about them from a techical aspect may be true.  But, is the end result SO substantially bettter that you are willing to pay almost $50 a box for them in factory loads?  Especially when you can get the standard cartridges in factory loads for around $20 a box?  (.308 Win., .270 Win. .223, .243, .25-06).

   The answer (from the marketplace) is no.  These were a marketing scam to begin with, and are dying a quick death.

  Regards,

   Mannyrock

Indeed

[45-70.gov]

short  mag  ==  reduced  magazine capacity to

[kombi1976]

Manny, I think you've misinterpreted my post.
I was speaking neither for or against the WSMs and WSSMs in that post......just explaining the rationale behind them.
If you want my opinion I think the WSSMs are extraneous and really were a foolish venture.
The super short action length was laughable and to give you an idea of how unpopular they were dealers were selling new $1400 rifles chambered WSSMs for $699.
I know at least 2 guys who owned 223 WSSMs and found them inherrently accurate and explosively effective but tell me who can't achieve similar results with a 22-250.
So, yeah, the WSSMs have little to offer.
The WSMs, however, did have something, or at least a couple of the cals did.
The 270 WSM has been a popular seller because it offers that extra edge on a 270 Win and is more affordable than a 270 Wby Mag.
It also happens to be a short action cartridge and the combination makes for a great mountain rifle.
At one stage I even considered buying one myself.
And there seems to be a definite following for the 300 WSM too.
The 7mm WSM and 325 WSM you can make you own call; both work but didn't find a market really.
But all the WSMs, by virtue of the factory ammo prices, are a reloading proposition.
I have feelings about other short action cartridges - mainly 7mm-08 and particularly 260 Rem - because I think they're reinventing the wheel i.e. the 7x57 and 6.5x55 do it better and with more style.
But people find the '08 based cartridges good, even though they could be described as a marketing scam too.
So if it works, has something different to offer and has a following why knock it?

[mannyrock]

  Yes Kombi, I agree with you.   The .300WSM and the .270 WSM at least made some sense, and I feel  that these two rounds will be the only short mag rounds that survive in any real terms. 

[spikehorn]

I'm in with 243 crowd. I have no use for it. I have 223s and 308s don't have to resight when I go to a different wieght bullet like the 243. If I'm varminting I take the 223 deer hunting I take the 308

[Freezer]

    243, doesn't do one anything well.  223 for deer, good varmint, target round and fun plinker but...   30 carbine for anything isn't enough, not enough for varmint, not enough for deer, too expensive for plinking, and American Serviceman in Korea hated the thing.  If the enemy had heavy cloths on they just kept comming.  There are a lot for other rounds that if they were popular should be loathed.  6.5 Carcano, 6.5 Jap. are just two.  They would give the 6.5 bullet a bad rap.

[spikehorn]

There must have been some good 6.5 Carcanos out there, Thats what Oswald shot President Kenedy with and that was a mooving target.

[Freezer]

    Look in a reloading manuel and you'll see what I'm talking about.  The battle rifle was also a piece of junk.  Have you ever seen one spoterized or a sporting rifle chamber for it?  The Arisaka was a strong rifle but the 6.5 wasn't a good cartridge.  the 7.7 wasn't bad but...

[ourway77]

I can't say I dislike any of the calibers I have owned, but the ones that were most accurate i still have. If a rifle can't hold 1" at 100 it goes. But one must take into consideration velocity doesn't make for accuracy. Many a animal has been killed with a 22, not tht I have done this but I have read many cases of animals being taken with the 22. So it's not what you are shooting but where the shot goes.  have shot the 243, the 7mm mag for bean field shots and have never had many run too far with my 7mm mag maybe two out of the many I have shot both regular season hunting and crop damage hunting. Shoot with what you feel comfortable with. Good Luck Lou

[Siskiyou]

    Look in a reloading manuel and you'll see what I'm talking about.  The battle rifle was also a piece of junk.  Have you ever seen one spoterized or a sporting rifle chamber for it?  The Arisaka was a strong rifle but the 6.5 wasn't a good cartridge.  the 7.7 wasn't bad but...

FREEZER:  Wow! You are real rough on the Japanese rifles.  I have two in my garage that were put to proper use since WWII.  My father-in-law was part of the army of occupation of Japan.  He had two rifles converted into lamps; nickel plated, and polished up.  They were wired for a three way light bulb.  Those rifles served in my in-laws homes on a number of U.S. bases.

The wiring has grown old and I need to rewire them before they can be used in the house.  I have no idea if they are 6.5 or 7.7.

When I was younger you would see one on rack at a shop, but they were never popular.  I have seen a couple converted to 257 Roberts.

I think conversion to a lamp was appropriate. 

[Freezer]

    The Arisaka was a very strong action.  The 7.7 (.311) wasn't a bad cartridge but you couldn't get brass or ammo after the war.  The 6.5 wasn't a good cartridge.  The 6.5 x 257 conversion was a very good choice and a common conversion.  Alas the palm safety really didn't lend itself well to a sporting rifle.   Some companies made after market trigers with side safeties but that was a long time ago.  Last year Timney started making them again.  With the WWII vets dieing off more of these guns are coming out of the closet.  PO Ackely tried his best to blow up rifle actions and had success with Springfields, Enfields, and Mausers.  He never blew up an Arisaka.  Newer Arisakas (last ditch) were such junk they didn't put the Emperors MOM on them.  Those should be avoided at all cost.  The Arisaka wasn't a bad rifle but we (US) were just predjustice against anything Japaneese. 
    The Itialian Carcano on the other hand was junk from the start.  Poor cartridge performance, poor action.  Just JUNK!  To prove my point, have you ever seen a sporterized Carcano?

[Coyote Hunter]

In order to have a "least favorite" cartridge I would first have to spend time thinking about it.

I haven't and won't.

There are many rifles chambered for cartridges I have no interest in and as a result wouldn't buy them.  I like all the ones I have, however, and would like a couple more.

[dpastordan]

I really have to scratch my head on this one.  There are tons of cartridges out there that I have not shot.  So I can't comment on them.  As far as medium bore cartridges...I would say the little .30 caliber used in the M1 Carbine might gets my vote only in that it is usually not allowed for deer hunting in many states. 

There are two challenges with what cartridge is least favorite or not:

1 - application.  What is it used for?  I would not use the .243 for moose but can see it appropriate for small deer, coyote, and the occasional woodchuck. 

2 - market place.  Who buys and uses it?  Some very good cartridges in application have disappeared or are very limited.  The .358 Winchester is one that seems to be a good woods cartridge on deer, bear, and moose but...it has problems in that people who buy rifles will tend towards other cartridges.  I had a .356 for a time but the ammo just dried up...and I liked the round. 

[scootrd]

I have feelings about other short action cartridges - mainly 7mm-08 and particularly 260 Rem - because I think they're reinventing the wheel i.e. the 7x57 and 6.5x55 do it better and with more style.

kombi1976,
Please explain reinventing the wheel?
Weren't both these cartridges designed for two totally separate purposes?

The 7mm Mauser was designed for medium or long actions  and does best with heavier 150 - 175gnbullets
while  the 7mm-08, was designed for short Actions and does best with lightweight 120-140gn bullets
fired from short, lightweight, compact rifles.

I don't see this as reinventing the wheel , I see this as a short action vs. long action difference?

Am I wrong in my thinking?  Someone educate me please...

[Coyote Hunter]

For me it is the 45-70.  Not arguing that it is a bad cartridge, being as old as it is and still being popular today makes it a star.

BUT it amazes me that a cartridge can have such a large following of people who will argue black and blue that it will be as effective or better than 416 Rigby, 375 H&H... when the argument really is that you are not legally allowed to use it for big game in Africa.

It is just plain weird.

The .45-70 is legal in many places in Africa and all of the Big Seven have been taken with it.

It has been known to punch a hole through two cape buffalo...

Also the 243 is a bit over rated, just never quite got the point of it, 223 and 308 seemed to be better options for me, especially the cost of ammo.  Mind you I am not an accuracy or velocity freak, I just like to have something bigger than most people would think is required. 

Not a big fan of the .243 win but it is the legal minimum for big game here in Colorado.  It has significantly less recoil than a .308 Win and more than enough of the right stuff for deer and antelope.  Quite a few elk have fallen to it as well, although I don’t recommend it for that purpose.

[R.W.Dale]

I don't see this as reinventing the wheel , I see this as a short action vs. long action difference?

Am I wrong in my thinking?  Someone educate me please...

you're not wrong so much as you're not right.  Saying that the 260 or 7mm-08 doesn't reinvent the wheel requires you to really really believe that 3/8 of an inches shorter bolt throw really matters in the slightest.

FIFW  Were I to build a 7mm-08 or 260 tomorrow it would be built on a long action and throated accordingly. For 308 based cartridges and longer I see a short action as a handicap.

[Freezer]

   I don't have my reolading books in front of me but I believe the 260 can operate at higher pressure.  Factory ammo can't be loaded to the full potential of the 6.5 x 55 because it is chambered for the older 95-96 Mauser.

[kombi1976]

You know, I almost posted what amounted to a long lecture on this.
Who cares about what the old rifles are limited to.
Norma and RWS and others load those rounds HOT.
Take a look at modern figures for the 6.5x55 and 7x57.
And the only reason they load heavy bullets is because Europeans like heavy for calibre bullets.
What Remington did was jump on the short action band wagon, make 2 popular wildcats propriety cartridges and then sold them in their own rifles.
Of course they COULD have simply done R&D on performance for the classic cartridges, but the USA is so full of blood hungry lawyers and fools that want to make everyone else responsible for their dumb mistakes so Remington took the easy way out.
You can't blame them for that, but you can't pretend the 7mm-08 or 260 Rem are better.

[Freezer]

   I didn't say they were better!  They just work at higher presure with factory loads.  Hand loaders can make the 7x57 or 6.5x55 sing.  I hand load not to make a hot rod but to get the best acuracy out of my firearms.  Remington's idea wasn't bad.  Americans have a predjustice when it comes to the metric system (7mm Express aka 280 Rem) and our lawyers are out of hand.... this is a post about bad cartridges and none of the above fit that. 
                                             I still think the 30 carbine sucks

[scootrd]

Krochus,
Thanks for responding ,
Kombi ,
I also was not saying one was "better" over another ..  I was stating it was my understanding they were developed for different reasons, 7mm-08 specifically for light,  short action,  compact rifles and was asking if this was a correct understanding. I can attest however , the 7mm-08 140's are very very accurate deer slayers.  

and in the spirit of this thread I still see no point for WSSM's

[wallynut]

My least favorite cartrdige is the 7mm mag.  Im not sure if it was the rifles I tried, but that chambering just recoiled way too much for my pleasure for a whitetail deer hunting round.  It would also do more meat damage if it didn't just drill straight thru when you didn't hit bone.  I've shot 338 win mags and 375 H&H's that were more pleasant to shoot.  As a plus, I can say that all the 7mags I shot were good in accuracy, but that doesn't make it a good deer hunting round.  Maybe out west where the shots are longer, this cartridge would do better, but in Wisconsin, the shots are usually well under 100 yards for most deer taken.  I've had several 7mm Mausers that were much better in the recoil department and they didn't do as much damage to the meat.  Currently using a 6.5 x 55 Ruger 77 but am switching back to my favorite caliber, the 7 x 57.