45-70 hang fire?

[Tallwalker]

I'm getting almost inperceptable hang fires with my 45-70 handi when using trap door level IMR 4198 loads. ( I started around 34 grains) is this common with this powder? I use 41 grains behind my 300 grain cast in my Marlin, and don't have that issue at all. I have been shooting the Lee 458-340 RNFP, and using standard large rifle primers. Except for a troublesome flyer the loads are shooting well so far.

[quickdtoo]

That's Lyman's start load for the 330gr Gould bullet, I'd try some new primers, maybe ya got a bad batch.

Tim

[Ranger J]

I had a somewhat similar problem with low end trapdoor loads of Re#7 under 300Rem HPs.  I finally traced mine down to that I was using 'new' brass and it evidently had some sort of oily contamination inside.  I pulled some loads after experiencing this and the powder was sort of yellow and oily.  Once the brass had been wiped inside and used once the problem went away.  I also learned that it helped to shake the load before I used it as Re#7 doesn't fill the case well and evidently is sort of position sensitive.  I don't know about 4198 as I haven't used it.  When I get new brass now I check it closely to see if there is any residue in it.  Lately I have been loading my trapdoor loads on the low end with 2400 on on the higher end with Varget.  My Handi likes the 2400 under 405 SP and the Marllin with the Varget under the 300 HPs.  I also load 300 cast over Trail Boss.  This last one is my favorite 'messing around' load.

RJ

[Blackhawker]

Doesn't the addition of a poly-wad help eliminate this type of thing?  I once had the same trouble with light loads of IMR-4198 during COLD weather.  I found that the addition of the wad may have helped.....although I never had a chance to try them in really COLD weather again.  Nonetheless, the I haven't had any hang-fires again. 

Ranger is correct; lube or oils can cause hang-fires.  When I first started loading the 45-70, I somehow got some case lube contamination on the insides of some of my cases.  I had some hang-fires as well as some rounds that didn't even ignite.  The primer had enough power to push the bullet half way up the barrel and I was left with sticky powder particles in the barrel, chamber, and brass case.   

[gcrank1]

If you can tumble your cases in corn cob media it will clean and dry the insides. If nor, try washing them in something like Dawn dishwashing solution, dump all in a colander to shake & drain and if you have a food dehydrator it works great to totally dry cases overnight.
I dont recommend over powder wads anymore. There is way too much data now out regarding rings in chambers (read: ruined rifles!) to take the chance. I raise the muzzle after chambering a cartridge to position the powder back against the primer, then lower it slowly to sight.
I also suspect that your powder of choice would perform better with a heavier load or a heavier bullet.

[Blackhawker]

If you can tumble your cases in corn cob media it will clean and dry the insides. If nor, try washing them in something like Dawn dishwashing solution, dump all in a colander to shake & drain and if you have a food dehydrator it works great to totally dry cases overnight.
I dont recommend over powder wads anymore. There is way too much data now out regarding rings in chambers (read: ruined rifles!) to take the chance. I raise the muzzle after chambering a cartridge to position the powder back against the primer, then lower it slowly to sight.
I also suspect that your powder of choice would perform better with a heavier load or a heavier bullet.

Is the "ruined rifles" a thread here on Greybeard or is that a book??
This is interesting because I've noticed that the Lyman loading manuals seem to have removed the use of wads from their newer books. 

If you don't mind me asking...and changing the subject a little here....what are the "rings" in the chambers?

Back on subject; yes, raising the barrel to place the powder back on the back of the cartridge and on the primer works (been there, done that!)  but if one is firing a lever-gun or perhaps a single shot shooter that forgets to raise the barrel, it can be very discouraging when having to stop shooting to pound a bullet from a barrel.  I agree, either raise the powder charge (if the hang-fire is indeed from too light of a load) or try a new powder. 

I've heard washing cases in dawn or detergent works but I've had luck by just running the suspect cartridges through an extra polish in corn cob media as gcrank1 has suggested.

[gcrank1]

I am new enough to these forums, and they are extensive enough that I may never get thru the archives, that I dont know if chamber ringing has been covered. It is the apparent effect of an over powder wad, or wad material such as Dacron (especially noted!!) slamming into the base of the bullet in neck and creating a 'pressure wave' radially outward to the case wall and impacting the case and chamber with enough force (from repeated firings) that a ring is peened into the chamber. Often the first sign a user has of this occurring is sticky extraction from the swell or bulge hanging up in the 'ring' and is evidenced by the then shiney ring around the case neck and upon closer inspection, the bulge.
I dont know what you will find if you 'Google' Chamber Rings, but for me, I wont use over powder wads ever again.

[Blackhawker]

gcrank1, thanks for the info.  I don't use wads all that often but when I do I've noticed that I get a ring of plastic-like material around each fired case mouth.  Because I use polyester wads from fiber batting, my assumption is that its just melted plastic and maybe some bullet lube.  Every time I see this I always wonder if I'm plastic coating my barrel, now you've given me something else to consider.   Thanks!

As far as polyester wads go, it's sometimes hard to make them uniform when cutting them from fiber batting.  I've found that if they're not exactly the same weight when inserted in each cartridge, the loads have variances which seems to be reflected in grouping on paper.

[Tallwalker]

Thanks for the input. It was chilly, 15-20° when I was shooting those loads, and they went from my ammo box (bullet down) to the chamber of the tipped Handi barrel, so perhaps positioning was an issue too. I do tumble my cases after sizing each time I load them so I doubt that contamination is a issue though. I did start at Lyman's start load, and work up to a mild hunting load. I am expecting to find that it will be around 40 grains, or a bit more. Tim may have a point with the primers too. Even though these are pretty new, I suspect that primer quality during the past year's shortage might have been a little less than we are used to.

[gcrank1]

Chrono testing of loads with the powder positioned at the bullet base, lying across the case bottom and positioned to the rear (at primer) show the greatest velo spread and lowest velo with the powder forward (at bullet). That, combined with the low temps, probably is the culprit.
I have observed this by shooting identical loads, back to back, one tipped forward and fired, the other tipped back, and can hear the difference and see the change in point of impact through the scope.
The best compromise may be to keep the rifle horizontal, thus the powder  is 'rolled' across the bottom of the case in a relatively uniform way, and if you raise it mostly horizontally to shoulder it may pretty much stay there. If bench resting you can chamber the round and roll the rifle side to side to distribute the powder within. Just be aware of this, and do it the same each time and you will have consistency.

[Chas.]

Yellow powder - yep, seen it.  In my case it was H4198 and I think it was some weepage that occured from Felix bullet lube.