game refuge discussion

[Hunter Fishman]

game refuges & game preserves.

First of all, same or different?
I have both labels on my maps but lack the understanding of differences.

I've never understood game refuge boundries (the aimless scribbled path that looks like it was drawn by a 2 year old) & the regulations of passage & accessability to these places.

let me explain something,
The far hill side is the area that I hunt the most.
Behind the pines in the bottom is the highway where I hike in from.


from top to bottom & twice as far ,left & right. Thing about that is, I have to cross over a fence & walk the road 2 miles across game refuge around the back to get to the top. I've hit the mt. straight up & its not ideal.
There are no refuge signs posted anywhere along the highway fence or the access road going in across the 2 miles of refuge which is only vehicle accessable to those with keys & includes forest service, fire dept, water company & the electric company & anyone who works there, their friend & anyone they copy a key for & so on.  
now on the first gate (road side) there is 8 different locks!
thank god for a land owner who bought a chunk of hunting property ON the game refuge & put up another gate around a few turns of the road just off the highway preventing most accessability to the top. theres only 2 locks on this gate. That only cut down access to land owner, his friends, forest service employees & their friends.

This is the only sign I have seen In readable condition & its nowhere near where I hunt.
Its on the 1 road down to where I shed hunt & find dead deer. & heck ya I carry a gun because I refuse to give up my right to protect myself! period!



Now, if you cant read it, it says, state game refuge all hunting & possesion of guns prohibited. division of fish&game.
It is perfectly legal to cross the refuge with fire arms (guns unloaded) from the highway to the top of the ridge shown but not further down the line of the same preserve?
Now, why would this be any different with the other access road having the same distance to public land?
Its also legal to push deer off the refuge & shoot em as they cross but people dont wait & shoot em where they first see em. So whats the point of having a refuge? How could fish&game regulate this when your legaly allowed to drag a deer back across the refuge? They cant because whos to say it was'nt shot on public land?
More wildlife, especialy deer, are shot on game refuges in my area than public land due to the vast area of refuge with easy easy access & very small amount of public land thats hard as all heck to get to.
I speak with forest service & fish & game offices often & its not a high priority zone & isnt as important as other major cities & hunt zones so we almost never have game wardens anywhere close & only see 1 a few times a year, if that! We only have 2 forest police officers who only patrol parks & back roads but are generaly too busy with camp site disputes & violations to have the time to do whats needed.
I'm glad most people dont see the lack of enforcment here because the wildlife would be in a world of hurt.

How is it legal to purchase land ON a game refuge or preserve & use it for the sole purpose of hunting?
Half the mt. side shown in the pic is an aquaintances property, undeveloped & in the middle of nowhere!
At the top is the back of his property & just beyond that is the preserve line.
could it be that the property was purchased before the designation of the preserve border line?
Is it possible the preserve line might have been relocated for some reason due to housing or other development?

THIS IS AN OPEN DISCUSSION FOR EVERYONE TO SPEAK ON.
FEEL FREE TO ADD YOUR THOUGHTS, OPINIONS & QUESTIONS AS YOU LIKE.


 

[bilmac]

What you need to do is find your local warden and clear these questions up with him. They don't bite. Looks to me like perhaps the "Refuge" has been discontinued. There are 50 states and probably 50 different ways of managing wildlife refuges.

I worked on federal wildlife refuges most of my career, and they are run way different than what you describe. In the first place hunting is allowed on most all federal refuges. In many places these refuges provide the only place in a vast area of closed private land where hunting is open to the public. Instead of ignoring them federal refuges are most often intensively managed to maximize their productivity for wildlife. Boundaries are posted every 1/4 mile. Most refuges have their own law enforcement officers, and compered to acres per officer, they are way, way more intensively patrolled than any state wildlife law enforcement. Take my advice and pay attention to the rules on federal refuges.

[Land_Owner]

It is possible that your definition of "refuge" is not the same as its Federal intent, purpose and land management operation.  The National Wildlife Refuge System is 545 refuges and over 100 million acres.  Perhaps yours is included.

"The Refuge" locally is also known as the Merritt Island National Wildlife Refuge, comprising over 140,000 acres.  It is Federally managed, mosquito infested, hog and deer crossed, duck loving, and a recreational paradise featuring bird and wildlife observation, a wildlife drive, manatee observation deck, fishing and hunting opportunities, and boating and paddling.  The Refuge is on the Atlantic Flyway of the annual duck migration south.  "The Refuge" is one of the premier duck hunting destinations on the Eastern Seaboard.

[Hunter Fishman]

I'm not sure if we have any federal refuges or preserves in my local area, just state as far as I know.

I thought it was like this.
game refuge; a place designated for wildlife to have a place to go to take refuge where they cant be hunted.

game preserve; land set aside & preserved for wildlife where land development is prohibited.

Does that sound right to you?
I will ask fish&game but they are much harder to reach than forest service & get specific & detailed definitions from in an half hours time. I think I know more than what forest service could tell me. I havent the foggiest Idea who hires these people or how they even got the job in the first place. what a waste of tax payers money they are! they need to hire me, I could do the work & replace 10 employees alone.

E mail would be best I think but it takes a while to get a response. If I call or go in I get exited & forget everything I need to ask. The wardens that I saw this last deer season were new & thought they were on the preserve line but was marked on maps 600 yards south of them they were smack dab in the middle of private property which wasnt marked on their GPS. The line is so squiggled all over that I can easily see how they thought they were on it. The funny thing is, I have seen old unreadable refuge signs nailed to a tree next to a fence 200 yards behind where they were so I havent a clue of where the line really is but I hunt the fence line that (acording to the map) is at times anywhere from 50 ft to over a couple 1,000 yards onto the refuge. I guess allot of people hunt this ridge top & have never been bothered because fish&game only sits on the road in his truck or just off the road in the bushes of the only road out of there waiting to ambush hunters to check their lic./tags.

WAOH! its 12:00 I need some sleep. more on this to come but its late.

[bilmac]

There are National Wildlife Refuges in every State now, maybe none close to you but shouldn't be far either.

There aren't hard definitions of refuge or preserve, they are used in different ways. Most federal refuges allow hunting, but most also have an area within them that is closed to all public entry. Actually these closed areas are part of the larger refuges success in holding wildlife. Whether we like to admit it or not, hunting does drive away game. By providing a place where the critters are not disturbed, they will be more likely to remain in the area. Many of the State "refuges or preserves" are based on that concept. Problem is that many of them are just created by law, someone went out and stuck up a few signs and then it was forgotten, except for the poor fish cop who now has to try to enforce the law.

There are a couple of ways that this could be approached. If the boundary is as poorly defined as you say you could do whatever seems fair to you and if you get a ticket, go to court and explain the situation to the judge as you have explained it here. Thak a few pictures of the crap they call signs. I would bet you would win.

Another thing you could do is take the place on as a project. Write some letters, find some buddies to help. Get the State to spring for a few bucks for some signs and go post them yourself. A wildlife sanctuary could be a boon to your hunting in the right situation. In a Sand County Almanac Aldo Leopold wrote that wildlife management is so satisfying that the people who practice it should pay the land holder for the privilege rather than the other way around. I was lucky to get paid for what I did 
tan the other

[Hunter Fishman]

Another thing you could do is take the place on as a project. Write some letters, find some buddies to help. Get the State to spring for a few bucks for some signs and go post them yourself. A wildlife sanctuary could be a boon to your hunting in the right situation. In a Sand County Almanac Aldo Leopold wrote that wildlife management is so satisfying that the people who practice it should pay the land holder for the privilege rather than the other way around. I was lucky to get paid for what I did 
tan the other

Thats a realy great idea! I will for sure look into that & maybe just maybe they will provide a gate key for access to put up some new signs. Of course I would make a copy for myself for personal use year round. 
I have thought about this very thing before but had no idea of how to go about it.
I doubt they will trust someone who isnt an employee of the forest service to do this because they would want it to be accurate but its worth looking into. I know I could place signs accuratly but they dont know that. I wanted to volenteer but the only program they had was for recreational park clean up in camp grounds or a watcher program to report vehicles parked suspiciously or report other violations. They didnt have a wilderness enhancment program or wildlife managment volenteer program. I havent botherd much with forest service because I cant ever get any answers from them so I quite wasteing my time. Last time I was there was for a fire permit & a down & dead permit.
Ya, they charge us to pick up down & dead wood from the forest which if not removed is a MAJOR fire hazzard to have laying around in a blanketed forest which WILL burn very very soon. Every year I wait with anticipation to see when or where the fire will start & how ungodly the devostation will be. It almost happened this year a week before bow season. luckily it started right at the fire station at the bottom of the mt. by a power line & was contained quickly.

I'm determined to work on pursuading forest service to allow me to volunteer for a few projects like this sign posting. My heart drops every time I hear a shot from behind me on the preserve & it happens about 10 times each season. some people get cought, some get away with it & others shoot & then snap out of what ever zone they were in & realize how illegal it is & abandon the deer because they then realize what the risk is of their actions. A huge main frame 3x3 with brows was found by a friend last month that was shot & bloated laying in a pond almost road side 2 miles onto the refuge. I'm not sure if signs will help with this problem because most know where the line is according to the maps & is our responsability to know anyway. I am also working on a deer deterent to drive the deer farther on the refuge closer to back yards where hunters cant go or they would be in peoples yards. Do you think urineating around the pond durring open season will deter the deer from using it durring the day? They have plenty of other water sources around, like the one man water seep that I use durring the season & a big pond in the back of a huge meadow of a trailor park comunity that also feeds them.

[bilmac]

I doubt that peeing in and area will cause deer to abandon it, but whitetails may be different than the mule deer I'm familiar with.

Are you sure that this "refuge" is designated by the Forest Service? This would be kind of unusual.  Most often such places are created by your State wildlife organization. If it is within the forest boundary the Forest Service will take an interest in it though.

I would start by writing some letters similar to what you've explained here and include an offer to volunteer your service. Send them to people pretty high up on the food chain. Letters are pretty hard for public servants to ignore. If they don't respond or just blow you off, send letters higher up, even go up to your local Congressman. If you get right on it and are lucky you may be able to start doing some work on the ground by spring or summer.

There is a good chance that they won't want you to locate the boundary, but it would save them a lot of labor if they could just flag the boundary and you went through and actually put up the signs. If I was the person responsible for the area I would jump at an offer like that. Posting a boundary is a lot of work, carrying all the signs and tools necessary, it takes a surprising number of them to do it right.  But if you aren't in a hurry and can do a little bit at a time it is not a big deal.

[Hunter Fishman]

I doubt that peeing in and area will cause deer to abandon it, but whitetails may be different than the mule deer I'm familiar with.

Are you sure that this "refuge" is designated by the Forest Service? This would be kind of unusual.  Most often such places are created by your State wildlife organization. If it is within the forest boundary the Forest Service will take an interest in it though.

I would start by writing some letters similar to what you've explained here and include an offer to volunteer your service. Send them to people pretty high up on the food chain. Letters are pretty hard for public servants to ignore. If they don't respond or just blow you off, send letters higher up, even go up to your local Congressman. If you get right on it and are lucky you may be able to start doing some work on the ground by spring or summer.

There is a good chance that they won't want you to locate the boundary, but it would save them a lot of labor if they could just flag the boundary and you went through and actually put up the signs. If I was the person responsible for the area I would jump at an offer like that. Posting a boundary is a lot of work, carrying all the signs and tools necessary, it takes a surprising number of them to do it right.  But if you aren't in a hurry and can do a little bit at a time it is not a big deal.

I'm not sure who desognated this refuge.
I hunt mule deer. we dont have any whitetail anywhere in the state of CA. I was thinking pee all around the pond on the game refuge right before & durring the season & that way my scent will linger for a while. Theres a spray sold in stores that claims to deter animals. On the bottle it has pictures of a deer,dog,cat & a squirrel.
I hate to have to cut out one of there water sources but It gets hunted illegaly all season by lazy weekend worrior roadside hunters. they park along a busy highway, walk 300 yards & BAM, a big pond that gets used by deer more than any other water source available. there has been stories floating around this last season about a hunter that was caught with a big 4x4 right at the pond & it got ugly between the hunter & the warden. from what I gathered from all the 100's of tales from other people about what happened, It sounds like the hunter got taken to the cleaners as well as jail. He lost the right to hunt for 5 years and every gun he owned because he had them in the truck that was taken from him as well. Alot of people use the excuse that it wasnt posted game refuge so how was I suppose to know? Its the hunters responsability to know by looking at a map & if they didnt know if its legal grounds, then they shouldnt be hunting there.

I'm very interested to find out what forest service, fish&game & the state has to say about having new signs posted.

I might not want to bring any more attention to this place though. Who knows what would happen then. They might move the line even farther back closing out even more of the area that I hunt. the refuge line climbs the south ridge along a fire break all the way up to the top but then cuts the main area of the summit in half diagonaly across to the other side of the mountain to the north ridge & coninues along it but then darts hard right to the foot hills then darts hard left. This is a major disadvantage to us because we enter from the north 2 miles on the game refuge & our season is in the middle of the summer heat (100+ degrees). the deer are on the north slope & we can only hunt the far south ridge where its impossible to get a deer out of & if you could it would spoil before you could get it back in time. If I had a key to the gates It wouldnt be a problem.  Every single area that I locate from satalite that looks like its even a half way decent place to hunt, Its either game refuge, private property, blocked by private property,
indian res or some other reason preventing me from hunting there. All other places are blanketed, near inpenetrable forest with a 1% shot oppertunity.
Theres not one hobby I have that doesnt include the outdoors. This is my life 24-7, 365 days a year. besides a job, I have almost no responsibilities or anything slowing me down or preventing me from being involved in wilderness enhancment. Thats why I am wanting to be so envolved in these types of projects. reason being, I have watched almost every couple that I know fighting all the time & most of those relationships have ended in devorce so I dont even waste my time with dating anymore. I'm 27 now, I'll wait until I'm 30-35 or so till I make that leap. I truly believe the rapture will be before then though. I dont get too lonely because I stay pretty occupied with my extra curricular activities. What I would love to do Is find a guide service to work for full time because I have a blazing inferno of passion burning within for the wilderness. My emotions run high when it comes to my forest & the negitive actions of people who disrespect it. I will never get board with the outdoors because its always changing & no matter if you think you have seen it all... you havent. Theres always something new to experience in the great outdoors.

sorry, I kinda got side tracked there for a second.

[bilmac]

I remember being young and full of piss and vinegar once too - I think    maybe       a long time ago.

[Hunter Fishman]

I remember being young and full of piss and vinegar once too - I think    maybe       a long time ago.

What do you mean?

[bilmac]

I just admire your youth and enthusiasm man, follow your dream. I wouldn't be making any bets about your matrimonial plans though. The guys that make hard plans like yours usually fall the hardest.

[Hunter Fishman]

I am also doubting that they will let me put up signs or anything official but I have to have faith & Its still worth looking into & might lead to other oppurtunities. I would like to be envolved with forest service & other wilderness officials for the simple fact of making things easier for each other.
For a while there in 06 07, 08, to the forest service & forest police, I was just a suspicious vehicle seen parked at the lake EVERY WEEK & sometimes twice or more a week. When I met a few of them while on patrol, They told me that they thought to them selves, who has this much free time to fish??? They had been keeping tabs on my regular activity because they thought that no one has this much free time so he must be growing pot in the back of the lake. I was shocked! I showed them photos with dates of me & the 1,000's of fish I cought over the years & explained my passion for the outdoors & things were cleared up.
At The end of 08 my car died & now was driving a hand me down beater van that nobody recognized.
I began to grow board with catching the same thing over & over at the same lake so This was also when I kicked my heavy hunting intrest into over drive & began parking along side the highway. This is where forest service, forest police, local police & highway patrol began to grow suspicouse of an un recognized vehicle parked on the side of the highway again, EVERY SINGLE WEEKEND. I had stickers from highway patrol stuck all over my back window dated & if my vehicle was still there the next day it would get towed. A new investigation began on this suspicious vehicle parked here so often & again they thought I was growing pot in the forest! Now I leave a note in my window dated & explaining what I was there for that day, where I was going & left my e-mail for questions. I really need a key to the gate because it brings way too much attention to this area by having a vehicle parked there so often & there was a drasticly noticable difference in human activity durring the hunting season. The friends that I met this year who have hunted this area there whole lives said this was the most people they have seen up there hands down!
They werent happy about it. I explained why I thought this was & tried to hint them to give me a key so I wouldnt be bringing unnessasary attention & I pick up every piece of trash that I see, which is more than I can cram into my high country pack. It makes this harder to do having to hike 2 miles both ways. I will pray about it & if GOD wants me to have a key then he will bless me with one. I have a passion for the outdoors closely compared to john miur & richard proenneke but dont have the ability to do the things that they did due to how things are these days. I wish it were still the good ole days.