Author Topic: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE (Read 10366 times)

WD45 · « **Reply #150 on:** June 07, 2010, 08:52:18 AM »

I know it kinda reeks of common sense but statistics are still numbers that do not necessarily take common sense into the equation. You can shoot someone once that is close enough to jump on you before you can get a second shot off. The BG could put a pretty good hurting on ya before he stops. The mention of one shot stop gives the impression that the BG folds up on the ground imeadiatly after being hit but how many times did it just give the good guy enough time to take evasive measures. Could they still be one shot stops ? Sure, The BG stopped before the good guy died. Out of that 60 % how many were completely incomapssitated and how many just quit the fight. I'm just saying that statistics arent all they are cracked up to be. Do all these stats take in the facts of the entire confrontation or just the fact the BG was hit one time. Do they break the stats down into where the BG was hit and the % of stops for that hit zone. I've just always been leary of statistics thats all

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #151 on:** June 07, 2010, 11:32:27 AM »

Well what I have seen is a stop means the BG stopped . Not always dead but stopped . Stats about one shot stops are just that . If they continue the fight they did not stop . They may die at a later time from the one shot but they did not stop the attack. so that is not a one shot stop.
What is getting funny here is those trying to justify the fact that a mouse gun might not work as well as a fighting cal. I dare say there are folks on drugs that can soak up a cyl. of 125 gr JHP from a 357 mag. and keep fighting . I would bet there are more folks that can soak up same from a mouse gun . Then there is the golden BB that once stopped a run amuck bad guy with one shot.
The stats say a 357 mag. has better one shot stops than any hang gun not just mouse guns PERIOD ! If you want to give up any advantage to the BG go for it he will love you for it !

Big Ryan · « **Reply #152 on:** June 07, 2010, 12:17:02 PM »

I sure do love my Kahr MK9, nice and small, fits in your front pocket real well, but the weight is alittle of a issue being its all SS. Now my new glock 26 has quickly become my favorite, alot less weight then my kahr and holds 5 more shots. Fits real nice in the front pocket aswell.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #153 on:** June 07, 2010, 07:28:33 PM »

According to a study by the FBI at Quantico, one stop shots are a falacy. They only happen if you hit the spine or it's a head shot or if the BG simply is shocked he was shot and gives up. They state that the most lethal wound is one that has a destructive wound channel entering a vital organ or cutting a major artery. Caliber and bullet type is not what you might think. They state that to be consistantly effective a bullet must get the minimum of 12" penetration. That's in case it has to pass through heavy clothing or an arm first. Hollow points will seldom get that kind of penatration. A flat nosed semi jacketed bullet is your best choice no matter what caliber.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #154 on:** June 08, 2010, 02:46:46 AM »

Then there are people that stop with a shot to a non vitial area because of mind set . The concept of one shot stops is not falacy just hard to do . The record of the 357 mag. is fact. If nothing else it proves the superior ablity of a fighting round over a mouse round.

WD45 · « **Reply #155 on:** June 08, 2010, 05:07:42 AM »

Well I think you guys get what I am trying to say. I am just saying it in a round about way. It is interesting to me how people put such a big difference between fighting guns and self defense. The way I think, any gun I use to defend myself with better be a gun I can fight with cause if I have to use it I am in a fight. I may not be the aggressor but that does not mean I'm not in a fight.

OK flame away

rawhidekid · « **Reply #156 on:** June 10, 2010, 04:18:36 AM »

The 357Mag was indeed the number one one shot stop when Evan Marshal first did his report some 20 years ago. But 10 years ago the 155 grn 40 S&W surpassed it. Wonder why noone remembers that?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #157 on:** June 10, 2010, 10:52:46 AM »

never saw such

rawhidekid · « **Reply #158 on:** June 10, 2010, 12:32:04 PM »

I went to www.handloads.com and found the following listing from Marshal /Sanow. Both Fed and Rem 125JHP in 357 are 96% one shot stops. This ties 45ACP in Rem 185 Golden Saber and Fed 230 HS at 96%. The 40S&W 165Golden Saber by Rem is 94% making it second place and the 155Gold Dot CCI has become 93%. Clearly places change with the development of new bullets and powders.

rawhidekid · « **Reply #159 on:** June 10, 2010, 12:35:19 PM »

Since this site is small handguns for self defence. it is interesting to note the 380 Corbon 90grn JHP is 71% and the 32ACP Win Silvertip is 66%.

WD45 · « **Reply #160 on:** June 11, 2010, 05:22:54 AM »

The advent of new bullet types and powders has increased the effectivness of the smaller cal guns a great deal over the last few years but they still do not stack up to the 2 top dogs. I think about the double tap theory and then think , If I have to shoot 2
of a certain cal to equal the effectivness of another cal then why wouldn't I carry the one I dont have to shoot twice with. This could make a great deal of difference if you are dealing with more than one BG. I understand the concealment issues and there are times ya just can't carry a larger cal gun. I enjoy these type of exchanges cause it does really make me think about what I do and why

RB1235 · « **Reply #161 on:** June 11, 2010, 06:08:48 AM »

Placement is more important than number of rounds. In the mid east are soldiers are complaining of the knock down power of a 9mm with ball ammo. The special forces tout it as the best thing since sliced bread. I thought the 45 was carried by the special forces. Seems I was wrong, that many favor a beretta with suppressor due to lower noise signature. The difference in capability is head shots vs. body shots. If you are close, have good ammo and can hit what you aim at nothing wrong with a mousegun. If you want center of mass for the least chance of missing under extremely high stress, personally I would want at the least a big bullet in a compact gun.

Big Ryan · « **Reply #162 on:** June 11, 2010, 09:22:23 AM »

From all the reading I have ever done, to stop someone instantly no matter what the caliber of firearm is used, the best shot placed is directly to ones bladder region. The eggspserts claim that the pain is so severe that it creates a Knee/Jerk reaction, and the person being shot will double over instantly, and will not be able to continue fighting.

highwayman · « **Reply #163 on:** June 12, 2010, 04:47:58 AM »

there is a video on you-tube of a women who shot a robber in the bladder area and he hit the floor very quickly.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #164 on:** June 14, 2010, 02:59:43 AM »

It boils down to your willingness to carry/shoot a better insurance policy ! Much like gambling that you won't need it !

williamlayton · « **Reply #165 on:** June 14, 2010, 12:55:08 PM »

From actual experience, the last time I was shot dead it took two shots--but the first was too my head, and no actual vital organs were hit and the last was too my butt and it put my brain outta commission.
Blessings

skarke · « **Reply #166 on:** June 14, 2010, 01:50:38 PM »

I'm thinking that it might be a good idea for us to lobby Freedom Arms for a 2" barrel, short handled version of their Model 83 in, say, a 500 Wyoming Express. It should fit well in an inside the waist holster. With 5 shots, I think that it might have good first shot stopping power.

skarke · « **Reply #167 on:** June 14, 2010, 01:52:37 PM »

I'd really only want the Model 83 I describe in an alloy frame, though.

trotterlg · « **Reply #168 on:** June 14, 2010, 02:27:22 PM »

I found an easy to carry little gun, fits in my cell phone case. Larry

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #169 on:** June 15, 2010, 06:05:50 AM »

I advise those wanting to tote a mouse gun to got to a gun shop . Take a look at unloaded guns from the front . The idea is to stop an attack . If you don't fire a shot its even better . I have stopped several attacks by just having a gun . Now be honest does a 22-32 have the same effect on your visual as say a 38-45 does ?
It might be my plumbing back ground but bigger pipes deliver bigger payloads !

WD45 · « **Reply #170 on:** June 15, 2010, 06:20:00 AM »

Shootall you hit the nail on the head there. It's what you are gambling with that I look at. How many would sit down at a gambling table with a 50 or 60 % chance of living through the game. While I admit most of us here don't have a lot to go on other than the statistics/ % looking at it from the perspective of playin the odds you are betting that you wont be one of the 40 out of 100 that lost. If I am forced to gamble with something I can not get back or make more of then I am going to do everthing I can to stack the odds in my favor.While I agree that any gun is better than no gun I think people get stuck on just that. You can apply that analagy to lots of things. how about body armor. If you were going to get shot, which one would you rather have on. The one that stops a bullet 96 % of the time or the one that stops a bullet 60 % of the time ? But they are both body armor...
By the way william, thats funny there

Did it leave a mark

Frank V · « **Reply #171 on:** June 15, 2010, 07:45:40 AM »

I will probably have some disagree with me, & that's ok, everyone needs to adress his own needs! I feel the .38/ .380 are the smallest a person should carry. Most S&W J frames & Colt D frames will fit into the front pocket of most pants. Using a pocket holster will almost always prevent "printing". I know the .32s are gaining in popularity, & the .32 mag & .327s are popular. These might work as well as a .38? I prefer a bit more bullet weight. This said if all I had with me were a .22, I'd use it if I had to. In fact the Beretta 21A is a very concealable gun & more accurate than most would believe. Still I'd rather have a .38. Whatever is used become proficient with it, able to hit a 8" target in a big hurry at 3 & 7 yards. Bullet placement is king, power is secondary. It's probably been said before, but I first heard it from Bill Jordan, "speed's fine, accuracy is final" Seem applicable today too.
Mindset isn't talked about as much as it should be, develop the mindset that "I'm going home no matter what happens, I win" be smart, use cover, & probably the most important "be aware of what is around you" Avoid dangerous encounters if at all possible. The macho mindset has no place in avoiding confrontations. Since I retired I have the option to run if need be, does someone see this as cowardly? Maybe, but it may keep me from having to kill someone & surely keep me out of court. Be smart, don't develop an attitude because we are armed. Friends who go armed every day have become the most polite people I know!
Thanks, Frank

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #172 on:** June 15, 2010, 07:56:19 AM »

Good points Frank . Living is winning !

pneuby · « **Reply #173 on:** June 15, 2010, 12:36:30 PM »

trotterlg, I want to be sure not to come off sounding like a smart-aleck here.

I just fondled that same piece yesterday, if it's the one in .22Short. But, I was concerned if you can actually control it while shooting it? I mean, is it at risk of coming out of your grasp?

Thanks.

teamnelson · « **Reply #174 on:** June 15, 2010, 01:37:39 PM »

Gut shots are smart, even if they are able to block the pain, its hard to chase me when your entrails are now extrails.

trotterlg · « **Reply #175 on:** June 15, 2010, 01:47:06 PM »

It is the Short, but the frame and grips are the same as the LR, the 22 Mag has a larger frame. With some practice and and odd type of grip, you can shoot it one handed, one finger around the grip and one on the trigger. Not exactly ideal, but it is a gun and does have 5 shots and if you can't hide this one then just give up trying to cc. Larry

WD45 · « **Reply #176 on:** June 15, 2010, 03:07:37 PM »

run away cowardly ? Running away while someone is trying to do harm to your family it sure might be but getting away from a situation where you may be harmed or have to kill someone else would not be if you can get away. How's that old saying go. Run away today and live to fight another day. There is a difference between being a coward and being stupid

Being aware of your surroundings includes possible escape routes. I sure would not want to take on a gang by myself if I could get away or avoid it. Now they may think I am a coward but on the other hand I might be thinkin I'm sure glad I didn't have to kill that guy.I went to school with one of the macho I wont back down from anyone type of guys and he was killed in a knife fight a couple weeks ago,probably over something stupid at that.
The only problem is some of us are getting to the point we could not run away if we wanted to

teamnelson · « **Reply #177 on:** June 15, 2010, 05:16:36 PM »

wd45, in marine corps small wars parlance, we don't run away, we move to a position of tactical superiority.

Assault on an ambush is for the younger, faster and more heavily armed. When confronted with superior force, I'm ok to gut shot the alpha male, and regroup in a defensible position ... especially if I'm escorting family.

WD45 · « **Reply #178 on:** June 16, 2010, 05:58:20 AM »

Teamnelson, I like your description a whole lot better

pneuby · « **Reply #179 on:** June 16, 2010, 08:17:59 AM »

Thanks Trotter.