Author Topic: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE  (Read 9815 times)

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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #90 on: March 10, 2010, 05:58:59 AM »
I tend to agree with ya' Mike for the most part but I carry a Kel Tec 380 with 90 grn hp's at 1000 fps so I would tend to lean toward "it's the ammo you have in it" that takes it out of the mouse gun class. I would   rather cc my 18 rd 9mm auto or even a 45 (if I had one.. :)) but my situation is that I need something small and it beats nothing at all. If you ever get a chance to fire that small 380 with the ammo mentioned you will be impressed.
While not real world stuff.
I used to shoot a steel hand gun shoot my club had that was part IDPA, Part Steel, and Part three gun.
But when ever I would win I shoot one of my pocket guns the next month.  So I brought out the Det Spl with 130 grain 38 Special Federal loads.
And they would not move the swingers out of the little 2" gun.  All my 4" 357 or 38's with the SAME ammo would move the steel.  But the 90 grain 380 FMJ white box out of my Sig P230 would move the swingers.  Between the snub nosed 38 and a 380 I would take the 380 any day.  Add to it the hollow point ammo for defense not to mention +1 to 3 rounds in the gun.
After all Browning was the master of scale.  He took the 30-06 and said if i made the buller a .510 what would the other deminsions be. and we have the 50 BMG he did the same with 380.  He took the 45 ACP and scaled it to .355 / 9mm and we have an exact model of the 45 acp.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #91 on: March 10, 2010, 09:29:43 AM »
Get your pants one size large and carry a j-frame . TPH ? a baseball bat would be more effective in many cases . IMHO
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline bcp

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #92 on: March 10, 2010, 02:22:33 PM »
But everybody stares when I carry a baseball bat inside waistband.

Bruce

Offline U S Male

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #93 on: March 10, 2010, 02:54:12 PM »
Never bring a bat to a gun fight ;D

Offline rawhidekid

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #94 on: March 11, 2010, 03:09:15 AM »
US Male:  Not unless she is packing also. ;D  (As in old bat, ding Bat etc...) 8)
NRA Life Member, Retired Air Force, Grandfather:   RIA 38 Super, , Vaquaro .357, Golden Boy 39A .22,  54cal GPR, 54 cal Lyman plains pistol, 45 cal Kentucky Rifle perc, 50 cal traditions Hawken Woodsman

Offline Merle

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #95 on: March 11, 2010, 08:30:05 AM »
But everybody stares when I carry a baseball bat inside waistband.

Bruce



I hate to ask, but do you get "propostioned" a lot ???
 :-X :-X :-X

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #96 on: March 11, 2010, 08:43:40 AM »
Do you get ask if you are really glad to see them ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Robert357

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #97 on: March 12, 2010, 05:17:03 AM »
Dee
I really think we are on the same page.
My original thought was that one does not need a mouse gun to conceal adequately.
I am all for folks carrying a .32, .327, .38, .357, .38 super, .40, .45 or any caliber.
I just don't think it need be in a small package too conceal.
I am going to lean on my daughter to let me get her the Smith 632 in .327 when we start our shooting regime---if she wants another caliber I wll provide but I am going too steer her away from a mouse gun. She can carry a larger one just as effectively and, IMO, be a more effective shot with it.
Blessings
PS--How is the new master of the house. ;)

I think that there are really about three topics here.

(1) While you don't need an ultra small hand gun to be able to conceal it, you do need to make a few concessions to fashion, unless you are willing to go really small.  Similarly, if you are a fan of pocket carry (as I am) then you really do need a very small handgun unless you are a really huge person with huge pockets.  You also have to add new criteria in pants selection, such as pocket size (ability to remove your handgun easily) and how much of a bulge you pocket holster makes in your pants (good straight line for someone out their - but pants style and pleats or no pleats makes a big difference).

(2) I have never really been able to figure out what a mouse gun is.  I collect .32Auto's from prior to the end of WW1.  There are lots and lots of very concealable .32 autos (and .380 Autos or Browning 9mm-Kurz) pistols out there.  Unfortunately, not too many are really all that safe with one in the chamber.  I use to do only IWB carry (principally a .357 Mag or 38 special, or 9mm Mak) but found them a bit hard to conceal and so I didn't wear them every day.   I use to feel that the .32 Auto was sort of on the line between mouse gun or not (I hand load, but Buffalo Bore makes some hot Keith cast lead bullet .32 Auto load).  Some I know feel that the line is defined by the 38 Special.  As a collector with a thing for J. M. Browning and all his patents/design features, a friend talked me into buying a Baby Browning in 25 Auto he found at a local pawn shop for a great price.  I got it, cleaned it, tried it out at the range, and then make a pocket holster for it that included a spare magazine.  It fit so nice inside my pocket.  I didn't feel comfortable carrying it with one in the chamber, cocked and the saftey on, without the magazine partially out. However, I found myself putting it in my pocket and carrying it just about every day, even those days when I did a "real caliber firearm" IWB carry.  I also felt it really was too small in size (which is the answer to your original question). 

(3) Now focusing on really small handguns for pocket carry; which I feel is a topic all onto itself.  It was after I fell in love with pocket carrying the Baby Browning, that I decided to look around for pocket carry firearm in a larger caliber that was not a mouse gun.  I fell in love with the KelTec P3-AT in .380 Auto.   I made a leather holster for that and pocket carried it feeling much safer about it from both a "one in the chamber" perspective and what the caliber would do in a self defense situation.  Many people either consider the .380 Auto a mouse gun caliber or not.  Ultimately, I looked around at various 9mm-Luger small subcompact pistols that might work for pocket carry.  (If I wanted IWB carry, I already had plenty of options.)  What I had learned about pocket carry was that in dress pants (with a small thin stylish belt) a pocket carry gun has to be not only small but very light in weight, unless one wants either to be constantly pulling up ones pants or wear suspenders.  So I looked at really small really light 9mm's and ended up with a KelTec PF-9, that I now pocket carry almost every day from when I wake up to when I take my pants off next to bed and go to sleep.   Part of what I noted when I shopped at gun shows and stores for my pocket carry 9mm was that the weight when loaded with a full magazine was the really critical weight for me.  That again is why I felt that the KelTec PF-9 was superior to most other 9mm semi-autos, it was really light when loaded, and really small in size.  In fact I think that it is just about at the breakpoint (for me) for pocket carry.  Anything bigger or heavier would be a problem for me.  This is why some folks I feel are so fanatical about ultra small size for concealed carry, at least it is why I am into ultra small size for concealed pocket carry.

When it comes to women and handguns, I am always amused at how different they think that I do.  While I started all my nieces and friends daughters on 22 short CB's in single action revolvers, none of them every stayed with a single action 22 revolver.  Some wanted to quickly go to much bigger calibers and some really likes "BIG" guns.  I guess with some women, size does matter.  A good friend's daughter fell in love with shooting my Ruger Blackhawk 45 Long Colt and wanted to shoot nothing else.  One niece really liked a 38 Special DA revolver.  Another niece liked both a 45 M1911-A1 and a 9mm Browning HP clone.  Still another fell in love with my Browning Buckmark 22 LR target pistol.  Another young lady I know is a snubnose .357 Mag fan.  So far none have opted to fall in love with my snubnose 44 Rem Mag DA revolver, so I guess size isn't everything. 

I think that your daughter will like what she likes.  While the .327 is an impressive round, I just don't know how easy it is to find ammo for it, but I am sure you would keep her supplied, so it probably doesn't matter to her.  Who knows, she just might fall in love with your Walther PPK .380 Auto, because it was "Dad's gun." 

Good luck and blessings to you.

Offline FourBee

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #98 on: March 12, 2010, 03:04:23 PM »
A small handgun can be a detering factor in the majority of confrontations, but you never know when that one situation may arise where the assaultant doesn't cower and at least a full size antidote .45 will be needed. ;)
Enjoy your rights to keep and bear arms.

Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #99 on: March 12, 2010, 03:20:46 PM »
We carry pocket guns because the chances of being attacked is minimal.  We leave our homes and walk or drive into the world unnumbered times per year, and of those numerous trips, we haven't needed to defend ourselves with deadly force.  Think about it.  For every 200 times you left home this past year, how many times did you have to shoot someone? Zero times.  How about in the last ten years? Zero times.  How many non-police officers posting here have EVER had to shoot someone?  That's why we like little guns.  They're easy to carry and hide, and we're not going to need them anyway.  We have more chance of dying from a thousand other sources other than being murdered.  We have a thosand more probable ways of being injured, than being injured by an aggressor we could have justifiably shot.
 
My point is, if we have need of a gun, we have need of a gun that works; I don't mean functionally, but terminally.  It makes no sense to me to carry a weapon that won't for sure accomplish the very thing we carry it for.
 
Uniformed policemen, and plain clothes officers can reasonably expect they'll have to shoot someone, so they carry enough gun to defend themselves.  They don't carry little guns to work.  What does that mean?  It means we as non-police citizens carry what we do based on chance of need.  That, my friend, is crazy.  If you knew for certain when you left your home you were going to face an armed and  determined felon on the street, you'd carry enough gun to give you every chance of survival.  But because you don't really expect such an encounter, you carry a little gun.         

Offline FourBee

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #100 on: March 12, 2010, 03:36:53 PM »
 Posted by: Mike in Virginia   
Quote
My point is, if we have need of a gun, we have need of a gun that works; I don't mean functionally, but terminally.


Yup. 8)
Enjoy your rights to keep and bear arms.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #101 on: March 12, 2010, 08:33:40 PM »
I find that the smaller the gun I am more accurate with a smaller chage/bullet/caliber.
I would rather hit with a .32 than miss with a .50BMG.
The point Is that size does not equate with concealability. It may equate with comfort--just as does size with caliber comfort.
I know that this is not the movies and one shot is not the norm.
Spray and pray is not the answer either.
I wear shorts in the summer, and a Tee, and carry a Sig P220 in a .45.
I don't carry rollers because of comfort and retention--I don't use scabbards.
I like shooting the .327 A LOT, and do not feel under gunned with the caliber but would not be choice of a carry weapon.
As long as it is flat I like it for carry.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline rawhidekid

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #102 on: March 13, 2010, 02:08:28 AM »
The statement that police do not carry little guns to work is not accurate.  All I know carry a small backup.  Many use the PPK.  Lets at least keep the facts strait. 8)
NRA Life Member, Retired Air Force, Grandfather:   RIA 38 Super, , Vaquaro .357, Golden Boy 39A .22,  54cal GPR, 54 cal Lyman plains pistol, 45 cal Kentucky Rifle perc, 50 cal traditions Hawken Woodsman

Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #103 on: March 13, 2010, 04:28:21 AM »
Rawhide, you are correct.  I didn't mean cops don't carry little backup guns.  I was referring to their main weapon.  I think a backup is a good idea, just like having a means to reload is a good idea. 

My first issued plain clothers weapon was a 2" Model 64, with lead round nose cartridges. Even the road troopers carried .38s with roundnose bullets.  It seemed okay then, but it definitely was not okay.  Mindset is a dangerous thing.  We establish in our brain that something is sufficient, and go about our business in a false comfort zone.  I think, too, we each have one or two scenarios in our mind about how a shooting situation will play out with the weapon we've chosen to carry, which again gives us false comfort.  The reality is much uglier. Whatever we think will pop up requiring our use of a defense weapon, won't.  It'll be something entirely different.  It'll come quicker, by surprise, and with no time to debate with yourself about what to do.  You'll just have to do it and do it immediately.  If you do it with a little gun, and survive, you'll never carry a little gun again. 

Offline FourBee

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #104 on: March 13, 2010, 08:42:18 AM »
These phrases are the hi-lite of  Mike's  post.
Quote
how a shooting situation will play out   ~  The reality is much uglier.      If you do it with a little gun, and survive, you'll never carry a little gun again.


Just one example from behind the barrel battlefield experiences.
An onrushing hyped person is like shooting a rhinoceros. Adrenalin flowing makes it harder to place head or heart shots.  One large .45acp slug in the arm, leg or torso most generally can make them falter, giving you another split second to react, whereas several small fast bullets may pass through him  before he gets to you and eats your lunch.

Enjoy your rights to keep and bear arms.

Offline rawhidekid

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #105 on: March 13, 2010, 07:09:46 PM »
A couple of years back, we had a young officer respond to a large indian on PCP.  He emptied a 45 ACP into him before he went down.  These were all center mass hits but the guy never felt them.  The officer was torn apart by the meadia for firing so many rounds.  No matter what you do you are always going to be second guessed by the armchair idiots. 8)
NRA Life Member, Retired Air Force, Grandfather:   RIA 38 Super, , Vaquaro .357, Golden Boy 39A .22,  54cal GPR, 54 cal Lyman plains pistol, 45 cal Kentucky Rifle perc, 50 cal traditions Hawken Woodsman

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #106 on: March 17, 2010, 02:04:42 AM »
Being around to hear the second guessing is the idea though .  ;)
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Robert357

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #107 on: March 18, 2010, 08:05:59 PM »
When I was a boy and first started to be interested in shooting sports and scouting, I remember each year waiting in eager anticipation of the new Winchester catalog of firearms.  I remember how each Model 70 caliber was defined for a different range of big game and small game.  

What I have observed over the years is that in my youth a .338 Winchester Magnum was considered optimal for Kodiak bear, African lions and a variety of dangerous game.  The .375 H&H was appropriate for Rino and Cape Bufflalo, and the .458 Winchester Magnum was recommended for elephants.  Today, some say nothing short of a .458 Winchester Magnum should be used on the big Alaska bears and anything else is too dangerous.  I have heard some say that maybe a .375 H&H might be OK on the big Alaska Bears, but you are being almost foolhardy.  Oh Course if you go to the Alaska Dept of Game website they suggest anything from .300 Win Mag up is just fine as long as you are in shape and can shoot it accurately.  

The reason for the above digression, is that when I was a young man the 38 Special used by most police was considered a real respectable round (and not in +P+ loading).  Similarly, during WW2 the .32 Auto and .380 Auto was considered more than adequate, Armies in both WW1 and WW2 issued them by the thousands to combat troops and officers.

I was reading recently that the preferred firearm of the French resistance in WW2 was the .25 Auto Vest Pocket FN Browning.  Talk about the ultimate mousegun!

Now, I do buy the argument that there are a lot more obese people today than there were 30 years ago and the shooting through several inches of fat before one gets to critical organs may mean that a more powerful round is required.  As to the strength of today's drugs being more resistant to being stopped by a handgun than the Moro who got doped up in the Philippeans and charged members of the Army with Kris, Barong, or Spear; I don't think so.  In one of my collectors books it talks about the history of the Thompson-LaGarde Studies that brought about the birth of the Colt 1911 in 45 ACP, there is a reference to one determined Moro "...he was finally felled by a .45 slug through both ears...He had thirty-two Krag balls through him and was only stopped by the Colt .45 - the thirty-third bullet."

So the question is why do we seem to need more powerful calibers for everything from hunting to self defense now than we did in our youth?

I think that part of the answer is that most people can not now get their hands on the more powerful firearms and they like having a more powerful handgun.  I would also say that shooting skills for the average US citizen are far worse than they were thirty years ago.  I can show statistics that the number of hunting licenses is dropping and the average age of hunters is increasing.  

So does this mean that a .32 Auto or a .380 Auto (9mm Kurz) is inadequate in a self defense situation?  Probably not much different that it was 30 years a go.  It might mean that 30 years ago, a skilled marksman was prepared to put 2 or 3 rounds in an adversary, while today most people in gun stores want to buy a "one-shot-stop" round.  

Just as you don't need a .458 Win Mag to take down a Kodiak bear, I don't think that "anything that any caliber that doesn't start with .4" is inadequate.

Of course, I am an old guy and that is just my opinion.  

Offline trotterlg

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #108 on: March 18, 2010, 08:34:46 PM »
Same thing goes for hunting rifles, I have a 25-20 that used to be perfect for deer, now, if you shoot one with it, the slug will just bounce off them.  Same thing with a 30-30 and elk, better use a 300 Win Mag or more or they will just walk away.  Amazing what the marketing departments can do for the stamina of deer and elk.  Larry
A gun is just like a parachute, if you ever really need one, nothing else will do.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #109 on: March 19, 2010, 07:44:41 AM »
Same thing goes for hunting rifles, I have a 25-20 that used to be perfect for deer, now, if you shoot one with it, the slug will just bounce off them.  Same thing with a 30-30 and elk, better use a 300 Win Mag or more or they will just walk away.  Amazing what the marketing departments can do for the stamina of deer and elk.  Larry
On the other hand Deer and Elk have stayed about the same size but people have become larger.  If Deer were now the size of elk and elk the size of Moose I can see the shift.  but will a 25-20 still kill elk under 100 yards.  Yep.
If you look at the average size and weight of people in the 1930's when the pocket pistol was started with the 1903 colt, the baby browning, the Savage 1908, and the Walther PP series.  But still the .25, .32, 380 38 S&W, 38 Special will still work and may be better choices due to the area you are in than having a full size duty gun at home.  And every time someone keeps saying 45ACP is the only thing to carry I keep telling the story in "Street Stoppers" where two guys in a boarding house got in to a fight and it ended up in a gun fight at the end of the hall.  One with a Colt Gold Cup loaded with 230 grain Ball ammo and the other with a Jennings pocket pistol loaded with stingers.  The Gold cup laughed and shot the Jennings guy 7 times, with the slide back on his gold cup the Jennings guy with 7 45 holes in him shot once hitting the Gold cup guy in the heart and then took 3 busses to the hospital with 7 .45 rounds in and through him to the hospital.  The guy with the gold cup lay on the floor dead.  Shot place ment is everything and the 45 is not a Star Trek Phaser or disrupter that one hit stops everything. 


Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #110 on: March 19, 2010, 07:53:41 AM »
So what did the french do with the baby Browning ? Ansewer use it to get a MP-40 maybe !
 And I doubt that cops of yesteryear faced people on PCP and other drugs like PCP.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #111 on: March 19, 2010, 08:10:35 AM »
So what did the french do with the baby Browning ? Ansewer use it to get a MP-40 maybe !
 And I doubt that cops of yesteryear faced people on PCP and other drugs like PCP.
Agreed. But we are talking about a personal protection firearm and not the police standard issue.
In most situations if you are confronted in a place of business with someone on PCP or worse PCP and Steriod cocktail that is on a rampage you are going to leave and let the police deal with it once you and your family are safe.  If you and your family can not get out of the way you are going to shoot and hope for the best.  Even in those encounters with PCP police have had to shoot and not had effect with major caliber, Shotguns and tasers seem to be what works most of the time along with head shots that hit the T.  If PCP is a prime concern of yours a Taser or stun gun may be something you want to carry as well as a pistol / revolver.
But I guess what you think you are going to encounter is what you are going to plan for.
I was carring a gun in VA as a means to get through a bad section of town and to beable to use it to excape.  And I have carried a 6" M29
The handguns I have illegally carried in CA have been for mostly 4 legged but some two legged protection but it was to end a bad situation not keep the peace in Dodge city, stop property damage, or fight off an invading army.  I have far better firearms than a handgun for any of those tasks.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #112 on: March 19, 2010, 10:13:04 AM »
mcwoodduck , I never figured out how to determine what degree of attacker i would have to confront so i plan for the worst and advise others to do likewise. In Va. , I have lived and worked here for over 50 years . Richmond for most of my working . I have worked all hours of the day and night . Over the years I have seen several shot , several cut , been shot at , had guns and knives pointed at me . Some of the time i had no gun , had a knife with me since grade school though , some times a gun . I have had a 25 auto, 32 tomcat,PPKs , and several other mouse guns so I speak from experince when I say if you need a gun you darn well need a big one that will stop and attack. Not slow it down but stop it cold . Its of no importance that more people are killed with 22's around the world . The only thing that will matter when you are attacked is when it stops and there are only two choices after you are dead or hurt or before . Your weapon at this point is your only means to stop the attack . Do you really want you life to depend on a mouse ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #113 on: March 19, 2010, 12:31:10 PM »
Shootall.
Maybe I am not the one to talk on this.
When I think I need a gun, i carry one based on the threat level I think I will encounter.  Clearly walking around in the suburbs on a sunny saturday is a different threat level than that same walk at night or in the inner city or on a construction site.  going to the mall and parking right in front on a semi busy day is different than parking at night far from an exit at christmas time when the mall is packed and people are not paying attention lots of cash is around and preditors are looking for the weak ones in the heard to attack.
What I carry I have practiced with and am confidant I can hit what I need to.
I practice stressing my self out with timers, excersize, and hoilding my breath.  Some times all three.  holding my breath I will do 10 push ups and then still holding my breath try to get 6 rounds at 21 feet into a 4" circle.  thinking if I can hit that I can hit the neck on someone.  There are a lot of blood vessels, and nerves in the neck that may give me the best chance to stop the attack as well as most vests do not cover the area.
The times I was worried and had a few guys tell me I was not going to testfy against their friend I was packing my P226 with as many rounds as it would hold and a few more in spare mags.  Lucky for me I was met with two guys with bats rather than guns in front of my apartment on my way home and I moved out the next week.  To Richmond actually from Va Beach. 
Other than that I have been very lucky and depending on clothing and I will carry what i can.
Now That i live in N. CA heavier cloths are not a neon sign of look at me that they were in the desert in S. Ca. where Khaki pants and a Polo shirt are the business atire adding a blazer, jacket, or vest would not allow me to blend in. 
With the 45 Vs. the 22 story i am trying to point out that shot placment is the key and that 7 rounds of the magic 45 acp may not work if you hit parts that do not end a fight through blood loss, Blood pressure loss, or a nervious system loss.  As Capstick used to say shoot the biggest gun you can.  A round of 375 H&H  in the right place is better than a 470NE in the wrong place and a Buffalo will run over you faster on three legs then four.
Granted if you are good with a 45 it will be better as the wider heavier bullets are what cause blood loss by making a lot of damage and large drain holes, blood pressure loss by giving you a larger wider bullet that has a better chance of hitting a major blood vessel and de-priming the pump, and the same with the nervoius system it has the mass to make it through bone and carry that energy through to spine, or brain.
Would I hand someone who has not shot a gun my mouse gun and say this will protect you.  NO!  if it was the right fit for the situation and they were willing to practice with the gun, learn to shoot under stress and on the move.  Then yes I would get them to carry the largest gun they could and not make them a target for someone who sees it and tries to take the gun from them.
As far as calibers for handguns go for personal protection.  All the auto loader duty calibers are the same, the mouse rounds are the same, and the 2" revolver rounds are the same.  You need to ballance threat level (how likely am I to be attacked and by how many), ammo carried ( would it be better to carry 9 rounds of 32/ 9mm or 7 rounds of 380/ 45acp), skill with the gun ( can I make effective hits to stop a fight in less than 3 seconds), and size of the gun ( is the gun too small/ large to be able to get it into action- can it be seen making me a target- Does it fit in my hand).
Ballancing out all of these is what will make a carry gun for you.  In your case a Bradly Fighting vehicle sounds about right.  ;)



Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #114 on: March 19, 2010, 05:03:33 PM »
Here's how we should look at it:  If ever you need a gun, you are already on the losing end.  Your opponent has the advantage.  He knows before you do that he's up to no good.  You won't surprise him by pulling out your mouse gun.  He's well ahead of you.  He already realizes he may encounter resistance. It's not who can get their gun out first; he has his out before you recognize the threat.  If that's true, then why in the world would you think you can come out ahead with a little gun?  If you have a chance at all, it's putting a big bore slug into him before you die.  Get real.  All this concealed carry hype is like kids playing cowboy.  If you ever face an actual threat, a shotgun or hand grenade is insufficient.  Carry a gun because you mean to stay alive.  Stay alert and don't hesitate.  Shoot before you get shot, and shoot with something that will settle matters immediately.  Carrying a little gun will NOT save your life.  It may deter someone from taking your wallet, but if he means to hurt you, he will.  If you carry a little gun at all, carry it as a backup, or something you can get to faster than you can reload your real gun.

Another point:  Someone above advised to carry according to your location.  That's stupid.  If you're going to a daytime farmer's market in a rural setting where nothing ever happened before, why the hell carry a mouse gun instead of a real gun?  Never is that the correct answer.  If you don't expect trouble, don't carry.  If there's the slightest possibility (and there always is), carry a real gun.  Dead is dead, no matter where you are.  Judging gun size according to surroundings is impossibly idiotic.       

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #115 on: March 22, 2010, 02:28:00 AM »
mcwoodduck , I wish i could know what was in my future as well as you do . I read about the mall shootings , school shooting , shootings in church , here in very nice areas drug dealers have attacked people in their homes . I also agree with MikeinVirginia when you find out you need a weapon you may well be in the fight . But then i guess i look at responsiblity different , I don't drink because i would not wish to be drunk when someone in my family may need me to help. I wear belt and suspenders often and carry a gun big enough to protect myself in the event i need one .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #116 on: March 22, 2010, 03:12:10 PM »
Shootall, I'm glad to hear you say that about belt and suspenders.  I thought I was the only person who wore suspenders who didn't live in WV.  That's a joke.  It ain't funny.  I take it back.  I've a friend there who is a better man than I. 
Anyway, suspenders and a belt allow you to carry the heaviest of handguns with no discomfort and no pulling your britches up every 5 minutes.  It's worked for me throughout a long plain-clothes police career, and it still works in retirement.  The little bitty scandium .38s are easy to tote, but they won't do what's needed when they're needed.  +P or not, they just won't.  I don't want to get shot with a .38 or a .380, but if I were defending my life, I'm fairly certain I could take a few hits with such rounds and still be able to return fire.  Conversely, when a big bore speaks, there ain't nothing left to be said.     

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #117 on: March 23, 2010, 02:46:10 AM »
No need to take it back
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #118 on: March 23, 2010, 02:48:08 AM »
BTW mikeinva. try a 340pd i think it would get the job done .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline williamlayton

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Re: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE
« Reply #119 on: March 23, 2010, 05:16:29 AM »
I don't wear suspenders but I do wear a good strap (belt).
A good belt is the key to wearing and carrying a gun safely and comfortably.
I don't carry a roller because they are uncofortable for me in my style--which is Sans a scabbard.
Too each his own and by that I mean everbody do it yourownway and if you like it , then, I love it.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD