Author Topic: SMALL HANGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE (Read 10838 times)

williamlayton · « **on:** January 19, 2010, 11:29:37 PM »

The recent thread on Kel Tech and Ruger has me thinking.
Is there a gun so small (size wise) that it is not a good carry weapon?
I have advocated the PPK/PPKS for years, however, that is about as small as I care for.
I certainly would not care for a .45 in a small package.
If the issue is concealability then I assert that this is not an issue and small is meaningless.
Now, I shoot everything that I own, which to me is a major reason to own a gun. I own a Scadium Smith in .38/.357 and I have shot it in the .357--anybody want a half of a box of .357, actually I was looking for it the other day and can't find this box of ammo.
OUCH is not a good term, GOOD GRIEF is a better term. The little gun is better suited to Wad cutters, IMO.
The point is that you can conceal a full sized P220 in a Sig as well as you can a KEL TECH.
Clothing you may say but I live in a climate that screams shorts and light shirts. That is wat I wear and I carry my LW Colt Commander dressed this way.
Anywho, it is just my opinion.
You may scream a womans purse---but I defy you to find anything in the Hens purse.
Blessings

Mikey · « **Reply #1 on:** January 20, 2010, 12:51:28 AM »

William - you have a good point there especially considering your experience with your 11-12 oz Scandium revolver. Yeah, 'ouch' is not the proper term - more like 'holy xxxx that hurts'. I have felt for a long time that about the heaviest caliber I would want in one of those is the 38 - the 357 is just way too much bark and 'web of the hand' bite. I can't control one in rapid fire and if I miss with the first shot there is no reason to waste the other 4......

That said, there is ample reason to consider smaller 22s, 25s and 32s. I'll betcha coffee and donuts there will be a host of folks who will say 'no, never, over my dead body and nothing smaller than a caliber that starts with 4'....... but to be perfectly honest, the smaller calibers do well for themselves. Someone recently posted that with carrying a smaller caliber for defense you are not running down gang bangers or going after drug lords and the like. I find it interesting reading in the American Rifleman where these 80 y/o folks chase off bad guys after hitting them a couple of times with their old 22 or old 32, or that grandma wasn't afraid to use her 25 on the thug who was beating her husband - and we are reading about it because they successfully defended themselves against the bad guys - who later got picked up at the hospital when they went there for treatment or who died on the front lawn, but the issue is that the smaller caliber handgun broke off the attack.

And you are absolutely correct in that full sized handguns can be adequately concealed even when wearing short skirts and tight shirts, or is that Richard who does that? Or does he just wear towels at the huntin' camp?

I'm not going there......

And I don't advocate purse carry - most often the purse is carried strapped off the wrong shoulder and is a easy target for a snatch and run, which means the bad guy just got the gun. Purses are also full of stuff that impedes rapid access; and all too often a gun dropped into the bottom of a purse is simply carried that way so as to please the 'he' who is more concerned aboout personal defense than the 'she' is - after all, how many guys or gals are going to purchase one of those $150-$200 Coronado Leather gun holster purses (and what happens if you get it in the wrong color or style.....).

I just feel it all boils down to going with what you are comfortable shooting and carrying, and practicing with it until you are confident shooting it. If it's a big caliber and she doesn't like the noise or recoil, she won't practice with it. If it is small and pretty and she can skip a can with it after a box or two of ammo well then there you have it - her choice.............. and pink may well be the new 'black'.

Is there a gun so small it is not a good carry weapon - not as long as you can get a first round hit with it.

If the issue is concealability it may be a issue, with tight or 'brief' clothing...

You dress your Colt Commander in shorts and light shirts? Is that before or after six???

Brett · « **Reply #2 on:** January 20, 2010, 02:31:09 AM »

I guess each individual would have to make that call. As for myself a J-frame sized .38spl or a subcompact 9mm is my minimum in size and caliber. Those little 2 shot derringers are nifty but too hard to get a hold of quickly and too hard to hold on to when you flip the bang switch.

jhm · « **Reply #3 on:** January 20, 2010, 02:41:13 AM »

William I fell that the regular North American 22 rev. is SO SMALL I wouldnt try to carry for CCW as mI cant hold onto it. I also like the PPK sized guns as well as the Kel-tec but I do find myself carrying the Sigs more than anything I have, HOWEVER I recieved a BLOCK 23 Last week and after shooting it some I have bn carrying it on a daily basis just to prove to ME that they arnt all that bad, ( never has bn my favorite ) Oh well you have heard the saying abt. the OLD DOG and TRICKS. Jim

williamlayton · « **Reply #4 on:** January 20, 2010, 12:32:14 PM »

White T's only before Labor day and never after 6.
Must have a sign on it to wear after six--if going to a nice resturant ---one that doesn't have roll up doors---or anywhere in Pasadena.
Wall Mart doesn't count and you can get jumped on by the Red Necks if your T is too nice---they think you are puttin on the dog.
Now if you are real fat--just tuck the gun under the fold in your belly.
You won't believe it but a jailer got fired here in Houston about a month ago cause one of the boys got into general lock-up with one (loaded) hidden just that way.
I won't go into how easy it is for a fat woman to conceal--in several places.

Gives a new interpretation to small of the back carry.

Blessings

LCR · « **Reply #5 on:** January 20, 2010, 03:05:09 PM »

NAA minis work well deep under.

williamlayton · « **Reply #6 on:** January 21, 2010, 03:22:39 AM »

LCR
Not to start an arguement but, what is deep cover and, in an urban setting, for our purposes, and why?

Blessings

Dee · « **Reply #7 on:** January 21, 2010, 03:57:16 AM »

William when I was a kid back in the early fifties and early sixties a lot of the old men still carried 25s, and 32s, and some carried the old long handled long skinny bladed knives. I later in life personally saw some folks shot with some of these anemic calibers and must admit, they appeared just as dead as the ones busted with a shotgun.
I for one carry a Model 60 all stainless Smith with 125 grain jacketed hollow points in 357 magnum, and I carry it every day. I think from my experience it is not wise to switch back and forth as each type of hand gun has it's own pointing characteristics and under stress muscle memory takes over PROVIDED your shooting technique has any ingrained memory. Switching back and forth RETARDS THIS MUSCLE MEMORY.
Do I shoot the Model 60 habitually with these loads? HELL NO! Your description of the experience possibly isn't strong enough but it is accurate. When I want to practice or just shoot, out come the light 38 special reloads. It doesn't change ANYTHING, it just makes it fun to shoot. Having used a magnum in a fight, I can assure you, that you will not notice the recoil or the noise. Your opponent WILL, notice, and be affected, by both the noise, and the concusion of the blast. Stats in police shootings, one on one show, that whom ever gets the first shot off regardless of whether that shot connects most times wins the fight. WHY? Most think it is demoralizing to be in a fight, and realize that your opponent is already at work, and you haven't got a shot of yet. My load will take any doubt from my opponents mind of my intentions.
Smaller guns? Can you really hide a smaller gun easier than a Model 60. Maybe, but what have you got in power and accuracy. In a Ransom Rest, a stock Model 60 will usually shoot hole for hole, target for target with a stock 6" Model 686 in a Ransom Rest BUT! In the hand, not likely. The shorter the barrel, the more critical the sight alignment.
At ten yards, a 1/16 " off barrel alignment in a six inch barrel, with the silhouette target still gets a hit, but that same 1/16" off in a 2" barrel will almost get you on the target next to the one your shooting at. I wore a Master Medal on my uniform for 18 years, but I know a handgun like the Model 60 is best used up close. It's what it was intended for. The smaller the handgun, the less distance from your opponent. That's how to look at it. How close do you wanna be?

williamlayton · « **Reply #8 on:** January 21, 2010, 04:39:25 AM »

Dee
I really think we are on the same page.
My original thought was that one does not need a mouse gun to conceal adequately.
I am all for folks carrying a .32, .327, .38, .357, .38 super, .40, .45 or any caliber.
I just don't think it need be in a small package too conceal.
I am going to lean on my daughter to let me get her the Smith 632 in .327 when we start our shooting regime---if she wants another caliber I wll provide but I am going too steer her away from a mouse gun. She can carry a larger one just as effectively and, IMO, be a more effective shot with it.
Blessings
PS--How is the new master of the house.

BUGEYE · « **Reply #9 on:** January 21, 2010, 04:50:28 AM »

I can't remember the name of the ammo I carry in my .25 but it's about $4.00 a shot and from 10 feet it blew a small watermelon into tiny pieces.

RB1235 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 21, 2010, 09:59:24 AM »

Well sir I guess it depends on your body shape and the kind of clothes one wears. I carry a ppk in my pocket pretty easily if my shirt needs to be tucked in. It is carried in a little holster that resembles a wallet. In the warm months I can conceal a glock 36 45acp in the waistband easily. In winter under a coat I carry a springfield xd 45 in the waistband.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #11 on:** January 21, 2010, 10:12:52 AM »

Friends don't let friends carry mouse guns !

Dee · « **Reply #12 on:** January 21, 2010, 12:20:26 PM »

Quote from: williamlayton on January 21, 2010, 04:39:25 AM

Dee
I really think we are on the same page.
My original thought was that one does not need a mouse gun to conceal adequately.
I am all for folks carrying a .32, .327, .38, .357, .38 super, .40, .45 or any caliber.
I just don't think it need be in a small package too conceal.
I am going to lean on my daughter to let me get her the Smith 632 in .327 when we start our shooting regime---if she wants another caliber I wll provide but I am going too steer her away from a mouse gun. She can carry a larger one just as effectively and, IMO, be a more effective shot with it.
Blessings
PS--How is the new master of the house.

I think so also. My wife and mother both carry a Model 637 Smith, with my action jobs, and although they practice with very light loads they carry 158 grain SJHPs by MagTech for protection. These little pistols are light, have plenty of power, and are not even noticeable weight wise, in their purses.

The little Rat Terrier "Buddy" is a pure pleasure, and great runnin buddy. We went woods prowlin this morning and he keeps up and is beginning to prowl a little out front.

NickSS · « **Reply #13 on:** January 21, 2010, 02:00:26 PM »

I have a couple of small hand guns but most of mine are full size. Personally I have no trouble at all carrying a full size 1911 and have done so on numerous occasions. In 45 years I have had to draw my weapon twice and both times the mere sight of it was enough to send the scoundrel running. The first time was a 1911 and the second time was a 4" Colt python. I do not carry those guns today as I have found that they are too heavy not unconcealable. So today I carry a Glock 17. Much lighter and just as easy to hide. About the only time I carry a smaller gun is when I can't wear a jacket or my shirt outside my pants. Then I resort to my Bersa 380 or Taurus 2" 357 mag. Either one will slip into my pants pocket in a pocket holster.

williamlayton · « **Reply #14 on:** January 21, 2010, 03:35:43 PM »

I have carried the PPK in the cumberbun of my tux.
Tough neighborhood.
Blessings

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #15 on:** January 22, 2010, 02:20:24 AM »

Sounds like James Bond stuff !

S.S. · « **Reply #16 on:** January 22, 2010, 04:33:50 AM »

I have a Beretta 950 in .25 ACP that goes everywhere with me.
Do I consider it as a carry gun? Not really, I think of it as more of a "Comfort Gun"
(you heard that term first here

). It normally is accompanied by a glock 27 .40 cal.
Most people would shy away from getting shot with anything, I don't care if its a
2 mm Colibri or a 500 S&W.

Dee · « **Reply #17 on:** January 22, 2010, 04:41:00 AM »

I have been guilty of comfort guns, but haven't had one in years.

Jeff Cooper said: He whom is armed with the 25acp has the comfort of knowing he is armed, and the discomfort of know that if he uses it, it will make the opponent angry. LOL! Possibly very true.

My quote was paraphrase, I can't remember the exact wording.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #18 on:** January 22, 2010, 04:47:51 AM »

Who said carry enough gun ?

Dee · « **Reply #19 on:** January 22, 2010, 05:07:40 AM »

I donno, I have always said it, but most don't listen to old codgers like me.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #20 on:** January 22, 2010, 08:01:52 AM »

A small gun for defense is like a row boat for a trip to England . Its better than nothing but at some point you will question your choice if you really need it .

coyotesbluff · « **Reply #21 on:** January 22, 2010, 09:14:55 AM »

Hi everyone !
I just had to comment on this ...I just purchased my very first handgun about 2wks ago.
A Sig "Mosquito" I don't know how you all feel about this particular model, but I became quite
a piece of furniture in the gun shop til I made my decision. I have short stubby hands and everything I picked up in my hands just felt forign to me too awkward from the Rugers , S&W , Glocks, and so on.
I saw this gun in the corner of the display case and asked if I could see it, it fit me very nicely.
So I got it. The gentleman that works there told me he was an armed security officer and it too was his first time holding it and as well was also impressed with the feel in his hands and also said he would too
bring this gun home as well. But what he told me was that this handgun is easy to conceal and even though it's a .22LR, it would make a good defense handgun in the right hands, it will hold it's own
when it came down to it. I fired it just yesterday for the very first time & it was just as plesent as it felt
in my hands , so was he right about what he had told me ? I know from a couple of threads that there are mixed reviews on this gun jamming or misfires , I had 1 jam out of 40 rounds I had fired , I was using the cci's that Sig reccommends to use. I think that one jam is too many , when it comes to your life on the line
that would be my only concern I belive ...any suggestions ? I live in the great state of NY so I can't carry concealed until my 1yr. probationary period is over.Sorry I rambled on so much.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #22 on:** January 22, 2010, 09:18:48 AM »

Your first concern might be if you use it in self defense will it defend you or cause you more problems .

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #23 on:** January 22, 2010, 11:38:06 AM »

The deep cover thing is about the only use I can come up with. Working in a downtown office as a service tech, your day may start when everyone else goes home. The place is very anti gun but you are very anti being beat up and shot.

What they don't know won't hurt them or unemploy you. Walk in at 1700 while most are leaving with the LCP in an ankle rig. Walk out at 0130 with it in the pocket of your windbreaker.

williamlayton · « **Reply #24 on:** January 22, 2010, 01:18:29 PM »

EQ
My kind of thinking.
Blessings

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #25 on:** January 25, 2010, 08:01:56 AM »

MP 340's fit a ankle holster and runs circles around a 380 . But that's just my opinion .

BUGEYE · « **Reply #26 on:** January 25, 2010, 11:20:38 AM »

It seems like everyone in the world belittles the .22 or .25 and never stops to think that maybe some of us can't afford to buy high priced 9s, 40s etc. some people have to do with what they have and it's disturbing to be excluded because of the caliber of of their pistol.

Savage · « **Reply #27 on:** January 25, 2010, 12:24:43 PM »

Bugeye,
Frequently a used 9 or .40, or even a used revolver in .38 can be had for the price of the .22/.25. But, carry what you have. Any gun is better than none. There have been times with I would have been happy to have even a .22 in my pocket.
Savage

BUGEYE · « **Reply #28 on:** January 25, 2010, 02:02:50 PM »

thx savage. I bought my 25 many years ago as a toy, not knowing I would be severly disabled.
when my daughter wanted her own pistol I sold my beloved 581L to get it for her.
plz guys, give your preference, I enjoy reading your stuff, but could you lay off the mouse gun remarks.

mechanic · « **Reply #29 on:** January 25, 2010, 02:06:49 PM »

I had a cop tell me my 22lr derringer was not worth carrying. Admittedly, its not an across the room weapon, but if someone is in my space and won't back up, I can perform a 22 lobotomy pretty easily.