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Offline GrampaMike

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Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« on: January 20, 2010, 11:05:09 AM »
Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads

I loaded all loads from the Barnes #4 Reloading Manual into an EXCEL spreadsheet recently.  So now I am playing with the data, wanted to do some comparisons.  There are a total of 324 cartridge and bullet weight combinations.  I used the formula KE * M / R for this first cut.  KE is Kinetic Energy; M is Momentum; R is Recoil.  Simply this is how much Killing Energy delivered to the target PER each pound of recoil delivered to your shoulder.  Listed below is the TOP 50 of the 324 possibilities.  I was very surprised at the results, especially number 1.

1   45-70 Government with 250g
2   460 S&W Magnum with 275g
3   500 S&W Magnum with 275g
4   454 Casull with 250g
5   460 S&W Magnum with 200g
6   45-70 Government with 300g
7   500 S&W Magnum with 325g
8   500 S&W Magnum with 375g
9   338 Federal with 160g
10   350 Remington Magnum with 200g
11   338 Federal with 185g
12   45-70 Government with 400g
13   350 Remington Magnum with 225g
14   416 Remington Magnum with 350g
15   375 H&H Magnum with 270g
16   375 H&H Magnum with 300g
17   325 WSM with 180g
18   458 Lott with 450g
19   458 Winchester Magnum with 450g
20   338-06 with 185g
21   338-06 with 160g
22   338 Federal with 210g
23   416 Remington Magnum with 400g
24   460 Weatherby Magnum with 500g
25   338 Scovill with 185g
26   375 H&H Magnum with 235g
27   308 Winchester with 130g
28   300 WSM with 168g
29   338 Scovill with 210g
30   338 Scovill with 225g
31   460 Weatherby Magnum with 450g
32   338 Federal with 225g
33   338 Scovill with 160g
34   300 WSM with 165g
35   450 Marlin with 250g
36   22 Hornet with 30g
37   308 Winchester with 150g
38   41 Magnum with 180g
39   45-70 Government with 350g
40   375 Ruger with 270g
41   338 Winchester Magnum with 160g
42   6.8mm Remington SPC with 110g
43   338-06 with 210g
44   338-06 with 225g
45   458 Winchester Magnum with 500g
46   458 Lott with 500g
47   375 Ruger with 300g
48   35 Whelen with 225g
49   300 WSM with 150g
50   224 Weatherby Magnum with 53g

This is just a little exercise to compare numbers, (I know; what is wrong with this guy?).
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2010, 12:16:20 PM »
# one suprises you... how about #36!?!?!?!?

CW
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Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2010, 03:37:29 PM »
Yah, that one reached out and slapped me!  Um GrampaMike, I think ya have a little too much time on yer hands. ::) ;D  You do come up with some pretty interesting stuff.  Thanks.  DP
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Offline briannmilewis

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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2010, 06:49:52 PM »
Where is the 444 Marlin, or do I need my eyes checked?
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Offline necchi

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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2010, 07:00:34 PM »
Interesting, but not suprising when you think about how your #'s are applied, kinda neat the way a guy can trip around with #'s huh?

Ever mess with this equasion?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_KO_Factor

Just a question. How does your "momentum" factor differ/apply as opposed to velocity?
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Offline Smoke Wagon

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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2010, 11:19:54 PM »
It's intresting that 6 of the top 10 are pistol cartridges.
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Offline bikerbeans

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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2010, 02:01:41 AM »
Granda Mike,

Can you publish the Top 50 numbers just for Killing Energy and not as a ratio to recoil?

thanks

Tom
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Offline GrampaMike

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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2010, 04:01:46 AM »
Quote
# one suprises you... how about #36!?!?!?!?

CW  I really expected that there would be more of the lower recoilling cartridges higher on the list.

Mike
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Offline GrampaMike

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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2010, 04:14:50 AM »
Quote
Yah, that one reached out and slapped me!  Um GrampaMike, I think ya have a little too much time on yer hands.    You do come up with some pretty interesting stuff.  Thanks.  DP

DP

I wish I had too much time on my hands.  Things pop into my head, and unless I try to resolve them, they never seem to leave.  So I spend some of my precious time.  I post some of these thoughts to get some ideas from you guys to refine or debunk my direction, for that I am grateful.

Mike
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Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2010, 04:21:03 AM »
i   would  expect  the  35 rem  to be  there

also 38/357
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Offline GrampaMike

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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2010, 04:21:49 AM »
Quote
Where is the 444 Marlin, or do I need my eyes checked?

I only listed the top 50 of the 324 cartridge/bullet weight combos.  There are only 2 bullet weights for the 444 Marlin in the Barnes book.  The 444 Marlin with 200 grain bullet listed as number 92.  The 444 Marlin with 225 grain bullet listed as number 120.  I expected the 444 Marlin to do better myself.
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Offline rex6666

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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2010, 04:22:15 AM »
never would have thought the 45/70 would have been on top.
looks like some folks (like me) have been going he wrong way with
bullet weights. ;D
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Offline GrampaMike

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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2010, 05:33:51 AM »
Quote
Interesting, but not suprising when you think about how your #'s are applied, kinda neat the way a guy can trip around with #'s huh?

Ever mess with this equasion?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_KO_Factor

Just a question. How does your "momentum" factor differ/apply as opposed to velocity?

I know what you mean about numbers/stats.  You would not believe how many times over the years of briefing commanders that I get asked about my numbers/stats.  The trick with numbers/stats is determining how VALID they are.  That is what I am trying to determine here with you guys.
Yes I am familiar with the Taylor KO Factor, I think it puts too much weight on bullet diameter, but that is just me.
Example:
22 Hornet   30gr   2963fps   KE=585   M=.395   KP=231   Taylor=2.8
40 S&W    155gr   1304fps   KE=585   M=.897   KP=525   Taylor=11.5
Both have identical Kinetic Energy values but KP and Taylor favor the 40 S&W.

Mike

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Offline GrampaMike

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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2010, 05:55:16 AM »
Tom
Top 50 by Killing Power without regard to Recoil, I don’t think I want to shoot very many of them.

1   50 BMG with 750g
2   50 BMG with 647g
3   577 Nitro Express with 750g
4   460 Weatherby Magnum with 500g
5   460 Weatherby Magnum with 450g
6   500 Jeffery with 570g
7   500 Jeffery with 535g
8   505 Gibbs with 525g
9   416 Weatherby Magnum with 400g
10   458 Lott with 450g
11   416 Weatherby Magnum with 350g
12   500 Nitro Express 3" with 570g
13   458 Lott with 500g
14   416 Rigby with 400g
15   458 Winchester Magnum with 450g
16   458 Winchester Magnum with 500g
17   470 Nitro Express with 500g
18   416 Remington Magnum with 350g
19   416 Remington Magnum with 400g
20   416 Rigby with 350g
21   404 Jeffery with 400g
22   378 Weatherby Magnum with 300g
23   378 Weatherby Magnum with 270g
24   375 RUM with 300g
25   375 RUM with 270g
26   378 Weatherby Magnum with 235g
27   375 H&H Magnum with 270g
28   375 RUM with 235g
29   375 H&H Magnum with 300g
30   375 Ruger with 300g
31   375 Ruger with 270g
32   45-70 Government with 400g
33   375 H&H Magnum with 235g
34   375 Ruger with 235g
35   338-378 Weatherby Magnum with 250g
36   45-70 Government with 300g
37   338 RUM with 250g
38   338 RUM with 225g
39   338 RUM with 210g
40   338-378 Weatherby Magnum with 225g
41   340 Weatherby Magnum with 250g
42   338 Lapua with 225g
43   45-70 Government with 250g
44   338-378 Weatherby Magnum with 210g
45   450/400 Nitro Express 3" with 400g
46   338 Lapua with 250g
47   340 Weatherby Magnum with 225g
48   338 Lapua with 210g
49   340 Weatherby Magnum with 210g
50   338 RUM with 185g

Mike
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Offline GrampaMike

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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2010, 06:11:12 AM »
Quote
i   would  expect  the  35 rem  to be  there

also 38/357

Barnes has only 2 bullet weights for the 357 Magnum in the book and only 1 for the 38 Special.  The 357 Magnum with 125 grain bullet is number 76.  The 357 Magnum with 140 grain bullet is number 134. The 38 Special with 110 grain bullet is number 263.  Barnes does not list the 35 Remington at all or the 357 Maximum, who knows where they would place.  I have plans to add the Lyman #49 Manual’s data to this database, if you guys think it is worth the effort.

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Offline GrampaMike

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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2010, 06:26:33 AM »
Quote
never would have thought the 45/70 would have been on top.
looks like some folks (like me) have been going he wrong way with
bullet weights.

The 45-70 data

                                         KE   M   KP   Recoil   KP/Recoil
                  
45-70 Government   250   3,605   2.829   10,199   28.2   361
45-70 Government   300   4,306   3.387   14,583   41.5   351
45-70 Government   350   3,491   3.294   11,500   36.6   314
45-70 Government   400   4,165   3.846   16,019   48.1   333

The 300gr has the most Kinetic Energy
The 400gr has the most Killing Power, but also with 48.1 lbs of Recoil, near double of the 250gr.


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Offline retrosub

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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2010, 08:03:45 AM »
I made up a very similar spreadsheet for shotgun slugs, with killing power at 100 and 200 yards, and killing power divided by recoil at both ranges. Very interesting to see how the sabot slugs take over at long distances.
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Offline Badnews Bob

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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2010, 11:32:19 AM »
I like the way the ole .45-70 model show well on almost every list.
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Offline cult .44

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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2010, 12:00:11 PM »
It's cool how the .45-70 stacks up respectably with the big dangerous game cartridges.

Quote
Taylor KO Factor, I think it puts too much weight on bullet diameter

I tend to agree. Yet, kenetic energy ignores diameter altogether and I think it's a significant enough factor that there should be a good way to account for it somehow.
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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2010, 12:56:07 PM »
Guess I'm going to finally have to break down and get me that .22 Hornet! 

At least my .375 Ruger and .338-06 made a respectable showing in there.  Even my .35 Whelen made it in the top 50.  The 6.8 making it in there has me interested as well, not to mention the .458 Lott.  I have a nice 1917 Enfield action just begging to become a big bore!
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Offline dross80

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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2010, 01:06:44 PM »
Kind of surprising the 7mm 08 didn't make the list that took recoil into account, whereas the 6.8 SPC did.
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Offline GrampaMike

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Re: Results of Barnes #4 Book Loads
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2010, 04:41:45 AM »
Retrosub:
Glad to know that I am not the only one.  I imagine that the sabot slugs must have a higher BC to perform better at longer ranges.  But I know almost nothing about shotgun ballistics.

Badnews Bob and cult .44:
The 45-70 Government always seems to show well in comparisons.  But in this case the Barnes #4 book loads use 42K and 55K PSI as the MAX loads.  I suspect that this accounted somewhat to the results.  Then again the 45-70 Government is over 100 years old and that does not happen by accident.

Cult .44:
I have been trying for years to figure a way to include the diameter of a bullet into the formula that makes sense.  The closest I have come is using the “Frontal Area” (ie. Area of circle using diameter of bullet, PI Radius squared).  But I have concluded that Momentum factors the weight of the bullet heavier, and weight of the bullet goes up as the diameter increases.  This is my roundabout way of factoring in the diameter.

Taylorce1:
22 Hornet is another cartridge that has been around a long time, shooters over time notice when a cartridge performs well compared to others.  My Hornet is a joy to shoot.  
The 6.8mm did not surprise me, I was lucky enough to be privy to some discussions in its development and “efficient” and “optimum” was words used a lot.  I have a 26” TC heavy barrel that just shoots the lights out.  Wish Handi would be offered as a 6.8mm.  It would fill the same niche that was attempted with the 7.62x39mm.

Dross80:
The 7mm-08 Remington with a 120g bullet is number 51 on the list.

To All:
I appreciate all comments OR suggestions, especially suggestions.  I take no offense at critical comments, I am a retired 1SG so I have been called everything ever thought of at some time.

I am thinking about going about this a little different.  Going to use the Lyman #49 Manual, and use all data for a single cartridge to create/find the idea bullet weight for that cartridge based on the data.  Then use that “computer model load” and compare that load against other “computer model loads” of other cartridges.  The Lyman #49 also has bullets of different brands so it might be a better choice of data.

Thanks, Mike
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