Author Topic: Looking for information on a 9 pounder (Read 3100 times)

Crosman · « **on:** January 20, 2010, 04:51:53 PM »

Hi Folks - one of your members (Carronader) very kindly pointed out this forum to me and I thought I'd give a try at seeing if some information from some of the knowledgable members might be able to assist in some research I'm doing. The following are representational sketches of two different horse drawn sleighs that were built in Canada to accomodate the 9 pounder shown in the 3rd photo (very poor - but all I've got right now). My intent is to gather enough information to be able to complete a 1/10 scale model but more info is needed or I'd just be guessing at some of the details.

I'm rather more interested in this one as it includes a 'limber' sleigh.

This one has a bit more detail but lacks the 'limber'.

I 'think' that the sleighs were designed to accomodate this gun (I stand to be corrected.) the gun pictured is actually about 30 miles north of me at Battleford, Saskatchewan and I plan a trip this summer for some photo's and measurements. It is noteworthy that the gun has a 'sister' in pristine condition at Depot Division (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) in Regina, Saskatchewan and I hope to get down there soon and convince the powers that be that I should be allowed access to it. We'll see what happens.

Many thanks in advance for any assistance or information provided.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 20, 2010, 05:08:18 PM »

Here are a few photo's http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977224@N06/1505189858/

There is a British fortress site that has a forum there should be someone who can give you
the need info there I will try to find where I put the link (too many folders)

Allen <><

Double D · « **Reply #2 on:** January 20, 2010, 05:36:57 PM »

I think this is the site Allen is thinking of http://www.palmerstonforts.org.uk/smforum/index.php

Another place you might post is at www.martinihenry.com in the British Militaria and Histroy Section. There are a couple of guys over there who are very knowledgeable on Canadian Militaria, especially in the region you are looking,

BoomLover · « **Reply #3 on:** January 20, 2010, 06:01:02 PM »

KABAR2, those were great photos! Thanks for posting!

Double D · « **Reply #4 on:** January 20, 2010, 06:52:16 PM »

Have you contacted Fort Walsh National Historic site for information? http://www.pc.gc.ca/lhn-nhs/sk/walsh/index.aspx

Soot · « **Reply #5 on:** January 20, 2010, 07:18:59 PM »

Here's a sleigh, you decide if it applies.

dan610324 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 20, 2010, 09:43:43 PM »

or

carronader · « **Reply #7 on:** January 20, 2010, 10:04:17 PM »

Hi Gus , welcome to the forum. Somewhere,there will be references to your specific sleigh,although from my sniffing around it looks like the damn things were used for just about everything.The barrel makers on here got such an easy life..........photos.........drawings......designs.........museums full of 'em........those of us with a big interest in the woodwork get the difficult bit. Even if you don't get any feedback on this soon.........hang in there as some of these guys got memories like Ephelants.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #8 on:** January 20, 2010, 11:34:39 PM »

Welcome to the board, Crosman.

"I 'think' that the sleighs were designed to accomodate this gun (I stand to be corrected.)"

You are probably right, as this was the type of field gun that Britain was shipping to Canada in the latter half of the 19th century. I can't help you with the carriage, but the cannon is a "Wrought-Iron Rifled Muzzle-Loading 9-Pounder, 6 CWT."
This book is titled "The Elements Of Field-Artillery, Designed For The Use Of Infantry And Cavalry Officers" by Henry Knollys, 1877. See Chapter I: pp. 4, 5, 6, and fig.1, Plate I.

9-pdr RML

This is a (not very good) photo of the 9-pdr RML at RCMP Depot Division, Regina, Saskatchewan.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #9 on:** January 21, 2010, 12:12:52 AM »

Gus (Crosman) -

WELCOME to the board! What do you (would you) like to shoot?

Crosman · « **Reply #10 on:** January 21, 2010, 04:41:56 AM »

Many thanks to all for the kind welcome and the links/pictures that you took the time to provide. Please accept my appreciative 'thank you' for your kindness.

Cat Whisperer - I really never had any serious thoughts about actually firing them. I'm more into just making the models. Here, for instance, is one 'in progress'. Yes...there's a story that comes with it

25 years ago I decided that I would like to make a cannon model. So I did. (about 1/8 scale) Unfortunately, at the time, I had no plans or information to follow...so I built it as I thought a cannon should look like. Well...that simply didn't work out all that well. My major concern was that the wheels were simply not anywhere correct (or the rest of the cannon for that matter). The lack of presentable wheels put me off the project and it has sat gathering dust ever since....until I ran across this http://forum.scalemodelhorsedrawnvehicle.co.uk/ forum where the posts and the kind suggestions from the members put me on the right track and gave me a chance to re-visit the model. I've since managed to get some 'correct' features incorporated into the model........but somewhere along the line the model became a 'test bed' for different features that I've noted in several hundred years of cannon construction. Thus the reader will immediately note that there are things 'wrong' with the cannon, carriage and limber. As it's going to remain as my test bed I will simply keep it this way and allow myself to hone/explore new skills for when I begin some actual scale models that WILL be constructed as close as possible to museum quality models.
In the mean time I'm having a great time adding features to my 'not so correct' model and I suspect that it will remain a 'work in progress' for quite some time as there remains a great deal of detail work to be completed.

http://forum.scalemodelhorsedrawnvehicle.co.uk/

Zulu · « **Reply #11 on:** January 21, 2010, 05:11:23 AM »

Looks nice Crosman,
I believe that a carriage builder of "old" took some leeway in whatever project was undertaken. He used the tools at his disposal and his knowledge as far as it would take him. With the guns I make I at least try to follow historical patterns, Still there are areas that become "Zulu".

Keep up the good work!
Zulu

Double D · « **Reply #12 on:** January 21, 2010, 06:29:32 AM »

Crosman,

A book that might be helpful is An Introduction to British Artillery in North America by S. James Gooding Query the book on http://www.abebooks.com Starts at $4

RocklockI · « **Reply #13 on:** January 21, 2010, 06:48:53 AM »

Welcome Crosman . This is the place .
Gary

Crosman · « **Reply #14 on:** January 21, 2010, 12:31:44 PM »

Quote from: Double D on January 21, 2010, 06:29:32 AM

Crosman,

A book that might be helpful is An Introduction to British Artillery in North America by S. James Gooding Query the book on http://www.abebooks.com Starts at $4

Thanks Double D - I actually have that book.

RATS...I just looked at the back of that book and noticed "The Gun Sleigh" John D. Chown listed- sometimes things are right in front of one's nose............now....to find a copy ...and away we go.

Double D · « **Reply #15 on:** January 21, 2010, 01:25:17 PM »

From http://www.armscollecting.com/Titles_on_Artillery.htm. also known as Museum Restoration. Call them and see what they have. They are not restocking inventory as they are trying to pare down and retire. Items listed may no longer be avialable.

The 9-Pdr. Muzzle Loading Rifle by John D. Chown. The history of the 9-Pdr. muzzle loading rifle introduced in 1871 is covered. Illustrations have been selected to show the carriage, limber, ammunition wagon, naval mount and gun sleigh. 32 p. 35 illustrations.

Also Same source:

Vol. ARMS COLLECTING Page(s)

This quarterly magazine published from 1963 to 2003, frequently contained articles on artillery subjects not covered elsewhere. Back issues are available: the Old Series (10x7 inches), the New Series (11x8½ inches), from Vol. 21, are all available at $6.00 per copy with quantity discounts from 11 or more with postage charged at cost. See ordering assistance.

4-2 British Artillery. S.J. Gooding, (Expanded to become Historical Arms Series No. 4) 101-125
4-3 The Traversing Platform. S.J. Gooding 106-114
4-3 A Novel Gun Carriage. Whitakers Journal. 95
4-4 The Gun Sleigh. J.D. Chown 150-152
5-3 Artillery Sledges for Canada. (illustration). Illustrated London News. 90
5-4 The Gun Sleigh. (Additional Notes and Corrections). J.D. Chown 136
6-2 Gun Sleigh, “A” Battery (illustration). J.D. Chown 64
8-1 The Light 6-pdr. of the Eighteenth Century. S.J. Gooding 3-11
7-1 Sir Joseph Whitworth, 1803-1887. With catalog: Description of the Whitworth System of Rifling, also of Rifled Ordnance and Ammunition, published in Manchester, 1867. J.D. Chown 20-28
9-4 The Gun Sleigh Additional Notes. J.D. Chown 135-137
15-2 British Artillery Design in the 18th Century. A.B. Caruana
16-1 Artillery Sledges & Gun Sleighs in North America, 1778-1783. A.B. Caruana 8-13
29-2 Canadian Gun Sleighs After 1861. J.D. Chown 75-84

Cannoneer · « **Reply #16 on:** January 21, 2010, 01:50:01 PM »

Crosman,

I came across this book when I was searching for info on the gun: "The 9-Pdr. Muzzle Loading Rifle by John D. Chown. The history of the 9-Pdr. muzzle loading rifle introduced in 1871 is covered. Illustrations have been selected to show the carriage, limber, ammunition wagon, naval mount and gun sleigh. 32 pp. 35 illustrations." I couldn't access the text because it's still under copyright laws, but I didn't mention it because I assumed you had it, the first pic you posted is from the cover of the book, and I thought the second picture (and possibly the photo) that you also posted were probably from the same book; someday I may learn not to assume things. If you get the book I, and I'm sure others here would like to see some scanned pictures of the sled carriages illustrated there.

This drawing is from a website "Canadian Military History Gateway."
B Battery, Garrison Artillery, 1873.
B battery was part of the first permanent unit of the Canadian army, the Garrison Artillery. Raised at Quebec City in 1870, B Battery acted as a gunnery school for the volunteer artillery batteries of the Canadian Militia. This print from the 'Canadian Illustrated News' of 19 April 1873 shows a competition in the firing of field guns held on the ice of the St. Charles River. The weapons are obsolete smooth bore muzzle loaders, mounted on sleigh-carriages for winter use. The gunners are in winter uniform.

Of course, this drawing doesn't show the 9-pdr rifles, but it's in the same time period, and I like the looks of these simple utilitarian "sleigh-carriages."

Crosman · « **Reply #17 on:** January 25, 2010, 04:05:23 PM »

Double D - I sent a quick email to the Museum Restoration Service inquiring about all the articles on the sleith. They immediately got back to me and informed me that the books were in the mail

and that I just needed to send a cheque after receipt. Apparently trust has NOT died.

Boom J ... many thanks for the photo - the sleigh does appear very similiar to the one in my first post (2 nd down) and the cannon appear to have the integral cast front sight like the 9 pounder mentioned. Would these guns have been obsolete at the time period mentioned?

Many thanks to both of you for your kind assistance and efforts on my behalf.

Cheers - Gus

Double D · « **Reply #18 on:** January 25, 2010, 05:44:22 PM »

Gus, that's what this board about sharing...everyone here does it, we just happened to be the first, this time.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #19 on:** January 25, 2010, 08:57:25 PM »

Quote from: Crosman on January 25, 2010, 04:05:23 PM

Double D - I sent a quick email to the Museum Restoration Service inquiring about all the articles on the sleith. They immediately got back to me and informed me that the books were in the mail and that I just needed to send a cheque after receipt. Apparently trust has NOT died.

Boom J ... many thanks for the photo - the sleigh does appear very similiar to the one in my first post (2 nd down) and the cannon appear to have the integral cast front sight like the 9 pounder mentioned. Would these guns have been obsolete at the time period mentioned?

Many thanks to both of you for your kind assistance and efforts on my behalf.

Cheers - Gus

Those sleighs are very much alike, the only real diference is that in the picture I posted there are three braces on the runners, and on the pic you posted there are four, and that difference may simply be due to artistic license.
The person describing the cannons in the drawing I posted says they are "obsolete smooth bore muzzle loaders," but (like you said) the muzzles, dispart sights, and chases certainly resemble the 9-pdr RML profile. It is my opinion that with sketches like this, it's always just a guess; was the artist accurately recording what he saw, or was he giving free reign to his imagination?

This excerpt taken from a Canadian military history site describes smoothbore muzzle loaders being used in putting down the "North West Rebellion," so these types of cannon were being used in Canada even in the mid 80's.
"On 27 March 1885, A and B Batteries received orders to proceed west on active service. Under the command of Lieutenant-Colonel C.E. Montizambert, the two batteries left Renfrew, Ontario by rail for Qu’Appelle, Saskatchewan. On reaching Qu’Appelle, the two batteries split. A Battery, with two 9-pounder RML cannon and a Gatling machine gun, under the command of Capt C.W. Drury, went north to join Sir Frederick Middleton’s column. B Battery, with two NWMP 7-pounder smooth bore muzzle loading cannon and a Gatling machine gun, under the command of Major C.J. Short, went west to Swift Current to join Lieutenant-Colonel William D. Otter’s force. B Battery would soon regret having traded in their 9-pounder RMLs for the 7-pounders. They had done so believing that the lighter 7-pounders would be easier to transport. Unfortunately, the light gun carriages tended to collapse when the guns were fired."

In any case, the 9-pdr rifled muzzleloaders were not obsolete in the 70's, in fact (in a way) by British standards they were state of the art. Even though the British were originally among the vanguard experimenting with breech-loading cannons, because of a few deadly mishaps and various technical problems with Armstrong breech-loaders, the military/government powers that be in Britain made the unfortunate decision to go back to muzzleloading rifled cannons, so these guns were being newly manufactured in the 70's.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 26, 2010, 01:08:52 AM »

Another aspect to remember is that Canada was a peaceful Provence for the most part,

you did not have a native population at war with you & you were on good terms with your

closest neighbor, the Canadian military was considered a provincial force they would not

be getting the most up to date arms & munitions Canada would have been looked at as a

peaceful back water. so Muzzle loading artillery was more than acquit for the region.

Crosman · « **Reply #21 on:** January 29, 2010, 02:03:04 AM »

A little more information has arrived. Boom J - this illustration indicates 3 uprights on the sleigh and is a bit more detailed in that it provides a drawing of the limber sleigh.

And an actual photo of a similiar sleigh in use.

A slightly different but similiar sleigh in that the entire carriage (sans wheels) is mounted on the sleigh

A drawing of the sleigh and limber with a bit better detail. The reference also provides scaled drawings of the sleigh and limber but they are restricted to side-elevation and don't provide sufficient detail to allow a model to be started.

As an aside...it would seem that the use of a sleigh was not all that unusual. I note at least four specific different guns mounted on sleighs so far - a 3 PDR brass, 9 PDR MLR, 6 PDR brass and an Armstrong 9 PDR BLR. However, Adrian B. CARUANA notes (Arms Collecting Vol 16 No 1)"it is evident that a number of different calibres, and possibly of different classes, of guns, and also howitzers and mortars, were mounted on sleighs and sledges. (up to 12 PDR's)"

I'm not quite at the model building stage...but I'm geting closer

. the search continues.

Cheers - Gus

Zulu · « **Reply #22 on:** January 29, 2010, 03:48:12 AM »

Note the small ammunition chests mounted on the sleigh. I have made a couple like this. I do all my own blacksmithing.
Zulu

EL Caz 66 · « **Reply #23 on:** January 29, 2010, 11:49:53 AM »

Nice!!

Crosman · « **Reply #24 on:** January 30, 2010, 06:02:38 AM »

Oh, my Zulu...those ammo boxes are fantastic

.

While I've got a post going.....here's a photo update of the project a little further along. Many fussy little bits...but it's all fun.

Overall photo - still needs tyres..and a whole bunch more - but it's coming

\

Some of the 'fussy bits' -

Zulu · « **Reply #25 on:** January 30, 2010, 06:16:40 AM »

Looks great Crosman! Keep going on the tinyest details. They make all the difference. After all, the one who will look at it the most is you.

Zulu

Double D · « **Reply #26 on:** January 30, 2010, 07:51:05 AM »

For those who don't know click on crosman pictures and they will open up bigger.

Crosman if you copy and paste the IMG Code instead of the IMG Thumbnail and paste it, the pictures will open in the post larger and folks will be able see the marvelous detail you put in your work.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #27 on:** January 31, 2010, 08:35:18 AM »

Quote from: Crosman on January 29, 2010, 02:03:04 AM

A little more information has arrived. Boom J - this illustration indicates 3 uprights on the sleigh and is a bit more detailed in that it provides a drawing of the limber sleigh.

And an actual photo of a similiar sleigh in use.

A slightly different but similiar sleigh in that the entire carriage (sans wheels) is mounted on the sleigh

A drawing of the sleigh and limber with a bit better detail. The reference also provides scaled drawings of the sleigh and limber but they are restricted to side-elevation and don't provide sufficient detail to allow a model to be started.

As an aside...it would seem that the use of a sleigh was not all that unusual. I note at least four specific different guns mounted on sleighs so far - a 3 PDR brass, 9 PDR MLR, 6 PDR brass and an Armstrong 9 PDR BLR. However, Adrian B. CARUANA notes (Arms Collecting Vol 16 No 1)"it is evident that a number of different calibres, and possibly of different classes, of guns, and also howitzers and mortars, were mounted on sleighs and sledges. (up to 12 PDR's)"

I'm not quite at the model building stage...but I'm geting closer . the search continues.

Cheers - Gus

Crosman,
Thanks for posting these drawings and photos; that first drawing of a gun sleigh and ammunition/limber sleigh show some good details, and I've never seen the pictures of field carriages (with wheels removed) being transported on sleighs before. I think that many of us find these artillery sleighs (whether used in Canada, the American Revolution, or in Europe) an interesting topic, please keep us up to date on the research you're doing for this planned scale model project.
I also like your model field gun with double trail carriage, and limber.

Crosman · « **Reply #28 on:** February 01, 2010, 01:35:17 AM »

How many picked up on the glaring mistake on the whippletree installed on the limber of my cannon project??? It was pointed out to me by a friend who's a long time 'horse guy' that the whippletree next to the limber is supposed to be ON TOP of the pole and not dangling underneath. I went into my reference material and ...sure enough.

It was an easy fix and is now correct.

Cheers - Gus

Max Caliber · « **Reply #29 on:** February 01, 2010, 06:46:10 AM »

Now that you have pointed it out, I see it. We always called those doubletrees. Two singletrees attach to a doubletree. I still have a singletree hanging in my blacksmith shop.

Very nice work.