Author Topic: 336 30-30 key holeing. (Read 1979 times)

zookiezoom · « **on:** January 23, 2010, 03:14:38 PM »

My brother picked up a 336RC, W serial# in 30-30. When he tried it out it keyholed the worse I have ever seen. He tried a couple of different factory loads with the same results. What could cause one to shoot this bad?

wreckhog · « **Reply #1 on:** January 23, 2010, 04:01:53 PM »

Got a Micro Groove .44 that does that at 15 yards. I gave up almost immediately, though I suppose that one could slug the bore, recrown, try shorter bullets, faster velocities, etc. Oh yeah, and clean the heck out of it. Soak with with foaming bore cleaner a couple times, and hit it with ultra aggressive copper solvents, then try another box of ammo. Did it look new? Maybe it was shot a bit and never cleaned. I can't imagine shooting out the barrel. What range were you at?

My go to ammo is Core Lokts. If it won't shoot those after a good cleaning, sell it.

FredWT · « **Reply #2 on:** January 23, 2010, 04:17:11 PM »

It shoots like it is a .32 SPL. If it is new, send it back to Marlin or at least talk to them and save the targets for them.

Swampman · « **Reply #3 on:** January 23, 2010, 04:27:01 PM »

See how far a bullet will fit into the muzzle. If it goes past the ogive then the bore is worn. Shortening the barrel might fix that.

mauser98us · « **Reply #4 on:** January 23, 2010, 04:45:09 PM »

I'm looking at the outline of the keyholed bullet. It looks like a spire point. the other bullets look awfully long for 150 to 170 grain slugs commonly used in a lever type rifle. Are you sure these were factory loads and not reloads using spire point bullets. If they are spire points over 180-190 grains, the twist will not properly stabilize the bullet,quite possibly causing the keyholes.

FredWT · « **Reply #5 on:** January 23, 2010, 05:09:00 PM »

swampy, the barrel wears from the breach to the muzzle. The barrel would have to be removed, cut from the rear and rechambered. Sounds like its time for a rebore to .35/30-30, .38-55 or .375 Win. Jes Rebores does a very good job, I read. Your test is correct though.

Dand · « **Reply #6 on:** January 23, 2010, 11:07:39 PM »

If this is a used rifle is there any chance its badly leaded from cast bullets? The heavy duty cleaning should address the issue.

Swampman · « **Reply #7 on:** January 24, 2010, 01:06:20 AM »

Quote from: FredWT on January 23, 2010, 05:09:00 PM

swampy, the barrel wears from the breach to the muzzle. The barrel would have to be removed, cut from the rear and rechambered. Sounds like its time for a rebore to .35/30-30, .38-55 or .375 Win. Jes Rebores does a very good job, I read. Your test is correct though.

I watch people ruin the muzzle all the time with their cleaning rods. That's why many older military rifles are fixed by counterboring the muzzle to get down to the unworn barrel. On muzzleloaders they sometimes just cut an inch off the barrel. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

zoner · « **Reply #8 on:** January 24, 2010, 02:33:20 AM »

i recommend cleaning the barrel real good.....then slug the bore....and take a look at the muzzle crown with a magnifier...somewhere in there you'll find the problem. As previously stated make sure your bullet weight and barrel twist are compatible.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #9 on:** January 24, 2010, 05:27:08 AM »

Quote from: mauser98us on January 23, 2010, 04:45:09 PM

I'm looking at the outline of the keyholed bullet. It looks like a spire point. the other bullets look awfully long for 150 to 170 grain slugs

That was my first observation also. But we need much more detail zookie! I'm talking everything here!

And not just the rifle, also the ammo, distance that ammo was shot at, everything!

I doubt if I could make a rifle keyhole bullets like that if I tried! $:-\$ There is no indication of stabilization there! Looks like 2 different types of bullets; If they all hit the paper plate keyholing like that the distance from rifle to target must have been short; they all look like they hit the plate exactly sideways which is against the odds, the angle of impact should be a more random degree of deviation from nose first... Very strange... $:-\$

Keith L · « **Reply #10 on:** January 24, 2010, 05:44:45 AM »

That they all hit alike is not in my experience. We need more information.

I had a Buckmark .22 pistol that had a barrel problem that within a box of brand new it was keyholing, but in that one it still had some that were worse than others. That was caused by extreme leading in the barrel (It came out in a major lead chip). It wouldn't be happening with jacketed bullets.

zookiezoom · « **Reply #11 on:** January 24, 2010, 06:49:16 AM »

He just bought the gun a few days ago. I think the W serial indicates 1963 if I'm not mistaken. Different outlines are from Leverevolution and unknown leftover roundnose. Distance was around 35 yards. My first thought were leaded barrel. Maybe someone shot cast bullets? The theory of the shot out barrel came up, but honestly, I didn't think it would be possible to wear one out. From the looks of the rest of the rifle there isn't any wear on the blueing and I'm 99% sure it hasn't been redone. We pulled a bullet from a case and it wouldn't drop in the end of the barrel. I tried to draw a picture of the crown for reference. The top looks like what I consider a normal factory crown. The bottom is what the crown looks like on this one.

jlchucker · « **Reply #12 on:** January 24, 2010, 11:04:34 AM »

Are you sure you've got a 30-30 and not a 32 special? It might be possible to chamber a 30-30 round in a 32 special, and if that happened, it's doubtful that the rifling would have any effect on the bullet going down the barrel at all. That might cause a keyhole. Just guessing here. I haven't seen keyholes like that, at those distances, since the time I bought an H & R Classic Target in 38-55, and those had all kinds of keyhole problems, mentioned by a lot of people. Puzzling--very puzzling.

swordfish · « **Reply #13 on:** January 24, 2010, 01:48:52 PM »

This one does the same thing.

STUMPJMPR · « **Reply #14 on:** January 24, 2010, 04:11:58 PM »

Personally,

I don't think a worn out barrel or muzzle would cause a rifle to key hole like that. I would definitely check the barrel and make sure the rifle is in fact a 30-30 and not a 32ws or something like that. A friend of mine bought a T/C hawken kit gun. After, he assembled it he took it too the range and it would group about 10ft at 100 yards. He sent it back to T/C and and they determined that the operator didn't reverse the machine when he took the tooling out of the barrel. So he had 2 sets of screwed up rifling in the barrel.

zoner · « **Reply #15 on:** January 25, 2010, 01:55:17 AM »

slug the bore

jlchucker · « **Reply #16 on:** January 25, 2010, 03:08:10 AM »

Yes, slug the bore. On a positive note though, if your rifle is otherwise good--wood, action, etc. there are plenty of Marlin barrels out there that will fit a Marlin RC. If you've got one of those neat little half-magazine models, it would be a shame to get rid of it when a good gunsmith could rebarrel it for you.

guzzijohn · « **Reply #17 on:** January 25, 2010, 03:21:58 AM »

For whatever reason I had a few rounds on my .219 DW keyhole. One three shot group had three perfect sideways keyholes with the bullet points all inward pointing at each other. If I would have measured the group size from the bullet points the group would have been less than a quarter inch, this was at 100 yds. It never happened again with the same lot of cartridges (reloads). Never did figure that one out. Have never had a problem since.
GuzziJohn

zoner · « **Reply #18 on:** January 25, 2010, 12:59:09 PM »

once more i suggest slugging the bore and carefully measuring the slug....lots of guesses but if you slug it you will KNOW what the bore size is. Then measure the bullets you are having problems with, forget what the boxes they came in say, check it so you know for sure what you have. If your bore/bullet size is right and the bore is halfway decent with some visible rifling about all that's left is a bad crown. BTW i just pulled out my m94 32 special and loaded,chambered,and ejected a factory 30-30 round with no problem...they are identical cartridges cept for bullet diameter. Good luck, don't get frustrated...those are good shootin guns and I'm sure when you figure out what's wrong it will be something simple. Cleaning the bore with JB Bore Paste would be a good idea too.................

Halwg · « **Reply #19 on:** January 29, 2010, 08:37:39 AM »

I don't think those are bullet holes. It looks like someone cut or punched those out and is pulling a fast one on us.

Dee · « **Reply #20 on:** January 29, 2010, 09:56:29 AM »

Back in the eighties I bought a brand new Winchester Model 94 Trapper in 44 magnum. It key holed just like that REGARDLESS of what you fed it, and it would do it at 10 yards. Took it back and got my money back.
I like some here believe there is something else going on here.
He said a 308 size bullet will not go down the barrel so it's not a 32 caliber. I would look into a severely leaded barrel first, and run a few rounds down it in the 150 grain size AFTER THE SCRUBBING.

Duckhunter250 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 29, 2010, 10:28:48 AM »

Quote from: Halwg on January 29, 2010, 08:37:39 AM

I don't think those are bullet holes. It looks like someone cut or punched those out and is pulling a fast one on us.

I agree. Looks like they been punched or something.

STUMPJMPR · « **Reply #22 on:** January 29, 2010, 02:59:49 PM »

I was thinking the holes looked too perfect myself. All the holes look to be a perfect profile and not a tumbling tear. If it is a hoax what is the gratification in it?

Halwg · « **Reply #23 on:** January 30, 2010, 10:25:55 AM »

People just like playing around and seeing what kinds of responses they get. Look how much time people put in trying to give a good answer to a hoax. I seem them on every forum!

Dee · « **Reply #24 on:** January 30, 2010, 10:31:03 AM »

I'm not at all sure he is jerking chains. It is possible he is not, and wants help.

av-doctor · « **Reply #25 on:** January 31, 2010, 04:06:03 AM »

its been a week and he has not responded i'd guess it was a hoax

zookiezoom · « **Reply #26 on:** January 31, 2010, 11:47:05 AM »

I can assure you it isn't a hoax. I work long days and don't have time for pranks. And my power just came back on this morning after 36 hrs. No update on the rifle. We cleaned it as good as we could with what we had at the time but he hasn't been able to try it again.

Dee · « **Reply #27 on:** January 31, 2010, 12:01:03 PM »

zookiezoom, looking at you plate, and the pattern I think you probably got what you said you got. I just gave my 357 mag rifle a good cleaning and I used a little Flitz and some Sweets to make sure I had no leading and copper.
Run a TIGHT dry WHITE patch down it back and forth DRY numerous times. If it comes back gray or black, give the barrel another good cleaning. If that's a micro groove barrel then the lands and grooves are shallow and it won't take much leading to make a smooth bore out of it. Keep tryin till you know it's clean. If it still key holes, trade it off, or take it back.