BC FRONT SIGHT HEIGHT w/STANDARD REAR WGRS ?

[David I.]

It seems I read on this forum not real long ago that the best height Lyman front globe sight height is .494" for all around use but I can't remember for sure nor can I find that thread. I'm sure this has been addressed before, maybe someone could refer me to that thread and postings. I also tryed accessing the Brownells sight height calculator but was unable to because I have a 64 bit processor. Is there another site that has some sort of similar calculator? As stated this is for a BC 45-70 w/ WGRS rear sight and for now lets say I will be using factory loads and shooting distances of between 50 and 150 yds. I seem to recall that someone said the factory supplied front sight of .584" is too tall with the WGRS rear for shooting at 50-100yds ( WGRS won't adj. high enough) and would result in low impacts.

[David I.]

I just noticed Lemi's recent thread on this subject and saw Tim's reply regarding .494 to be the better height front sight for the BC when using factory WGRS rear sight. I would still like to know about another "sight height calculator" for future use.

[quickdtoo]

The .494" sight would be correct, the .404" would be a better choice if you're wanting to shoot long range eventually. Using the .404" front sight on the BC with a Williams FP target sight at the bottom of it's travel, 405gr 1500fps loads in my 45-120 hit 1½" high at 100yds to give you an idea. The .584" sight is the 38-55 Target sight, why they use it on the 45-70 is beyond me, but it's the only 17A sight H&R lists on their 2008 parts list. 

See the Peep and Firesights link in the FAQs, there are a couple sight height resources.

Tim

[David I.]

Thanks for the info Tim. Yes, I will be raising my rear WGRS sight in the future for longer range shooting as you know and I was just going to use the .584" front because of $ issues as discussed in my other thread but.....there's another fly in the ointment I just noticed. My front dove tail slot was cut wrong, it's askew approx. 2-3 degrees ( not cut exactly on top of barrel in relation to rear sight and barrel lug). It really ticks me off and by all rights I should send it back but I probably won't. Since H&R/NEF recently closed MA plant and moved oparations to Remington and I heard they are experiencing some problems I'm not real confident right now what they'll do. Also, since my front sight is too tall I might opt to shorten it myself and at the same time I can easily make it "vertical" (I will be using the thin vertical post front insert). I definitely want my front post insert as vertical as possible. I would cut the thick area under the globe, grind and file surfaces to correct height and compensating angle and re-attach. I feel very strongly that I will never replace my front sight anyway...I just need to decide what height to make it. I need it to work for close shooting of 50-150yds and also for my longer target shooting of 300-400yds. I guess I'll have to make a compromise on the front sight height. As you know I will have spacer block(s) to go under rear WGRS sight. I guess I'll go with the .494" front sight height if I decide to do this mod./repair. I'd really prefer not to fool with the dovetail slot, especially since I'd like to shorten the front sight anyway and not buy a shorter one. P.S. The rear sight spacer blocks will only be used for my longer target shooting.

[quickdtoo]

I wouldn't be concerned about the service at Ilion if you decide to return it for repair/replacement, they're doing a find job, they had some problems after the move in the fall of 2008 but that's all ironed out, most problems now come from misinformation by Madison Customer Support, unfortunately.   See the Ilion Satisfaction poll in the FAQs.

Tim

[David I.]

Thanks Tim. It certainly doesn't make me happy that the front dovetail was cut wrong like this and it is noticable for sure (I'm guessing at the approx. 2-3 degrees). If I sent it back what do you think they'd do? Do you think they would try to modify (recut) the dovetail slot and then fill or wedge in the void area or do you think they'd replace barrel? Maybe it's off a little more than my approximation, I haven't gone that far yet to try to get a more accurate measurement. If it is 3 degrees, and like I say it is noticable, will they be willing to do anything or not in your opinion. If I do contact them, who do I contact now? Are the contact numbers, etc. listed in the FAQ's for Ilion?

[quickdtoo]

I think they'd replace the barrel IF they have one in stock, but I don't know that for sure, they've made this mfrg error before on the BC Carbine barrels, so it's not an unknown problem. Contact Madison CS toll free at (866)776-9292 and explain the problem, ask that they cover return shipping also, they'll  likely send you a UPS return label.

Tim

http://www.hr1871.com/about/contactus.asp

http://www.hr1871.com/Support/repairs.asp

[David I.]

Thanks Tim, I'll give them a call and see what they say. One last question., Do you know if any of the experienced employees familiar with the H&R/NEF guns transfered to Ilion? When I say experienced I'm referring to things like barrel fitting, etc., or am I worrying too much. I like the fact that my barrel was made in 2007, although they did screw up the dovetail slot! Did Remington send any people to MA to learn some things before they closed the plant?

[quickdtoo]

Brian the gunsmith moved to Ilion from Gardner, he's the only one I know of for sure since he posted here 3 times and that was it, he was one of a few key people that were offered new jobs in Ilion and a few others were considering the move to Madison, but I don't know if that happened or not. There were a few people that went to Ilion temporarily to help get things rolling too if I remember correctly.

Tim

[David I.]

Thanks for all the help and info Tim, I'll let you know how things go.

[bigoledude]

My Buffalo Classic came with the .584.  I called them and asked for the .404.  They had no .404s, only had the the .494 to offer me.  I got the new sight 10 days after talking with the folks at Remington.  And, this was right at the beginning of "primitive season" down here.  I thought for sure it was gonna take weeks to come in.

[Chas.]

bigoledude, your experience is much better than mine.  I called them but couldn't convince them that the .584 was improper for this rifle.  They're stock answer was "that's the correct sight for that rifle".  It's like they were reading it off a tele-prompter.  Absolutely no help.  Regardless, I bought a .494 from Brownell's.

[mtbugle]

I just got off phone with one of customer reps( I will not mention his name here in case a wayward supervisor is lookin in here, but could mention to known posters by pm possibly) and said will be sending me a correct sight. I had the too Tall one on mine also. Said I should be getting in mail in about a week. I will post results here and Ilion Satisfaction poll when I receive.
Thanks Don.

[David I.]

I just had a rather disheartening conversation with a young guy at H&R Consumer Affairs Dept. named "Arron". I had to talk him into checking to see if they had any barrels in stock for my BC 45-70, he ended up saying no they don't. I could not talk him into checking with their production dept. to see when they might. I politely told him I prefer not to send my gun in without knowing an approx. turn around time and that if it's going to be a month or two that I'd rather have my gun sit at home until you have some barrels available. He said they do not notify people when somethings available or not and that I should call back in 2-3 weeks. Part of my background is in customer service and I use to work very closely with the production and engineering departments (high speed labelling equip.). Arron is either instructed not to do such things or he didn't really care to. At any rate it looks like I have 3 choices: 1) Send the gun in and just wait God knows how long. 2) Keep calling back every 2-3 weeks to see if they have any barrels yet. 3) Not send my gun in at all and perform the mod./repair I spoke of earlier. I have a feeling when they do get a few barrels they are already spoken for or used to produce new guns. It's unfortunate how most customer service dept's are run these days....I've run into similar unhelpful dept's like this in the recent past.....things sure have changed, and not for the better I might add! Arron also told me they only stock the .584" front sight, hmmm! I could call back and speak with someone else but I really don't feel like it right now. I'm hoping someone on this forum might have a way to contact their production dept. or tell me how. I really don't feel I was asking "too much" of the H&R cust. serv. dept.

[quickdtoo]

Part of the problem is H&R doesn't make barrels yet(they will later this year), Marlin does, so their priorities go to Marlin barrel production, H&Rs are produced in between their production runs. Just an FYI, I had a contact at H&R/Remington who helped with info like this, but he no longer works for them, sometimes even he couldn't get info and he was in charge of H&R marketing!! 

Tim

[David I.]

Thanks Tim for the info. It's unfortunate that some companies see fit to operate this way. When communication breaks down it's bad for everyone including the business. It sounds like they even had communication problems before the move....not a good situation by any means. I can also see part of the problem (even before the move) was too many hands in the pie, ie: farming things out for various reasons. Excuses are easy to come by but in my opinion some things are inexcusable. What angers me is the folowing: 1) Their lack of good QC in 2007 regarding the front sight dovetail slot cut wrong, inexcusable. I realize these guns are mass produced as inexpensively as possible, but a good QC Dept. costs no more than a crappy one. There is a possibility that they allowed some of these barrels out there hoping most people wouldn't notice in order to cut their losses, I'm not saying that for sure but if that was the case....also inexcusable. There is also a chance that in 2007 they didn't have much of a QC Dept. and relied on only the production workers, leadmen, etc. That can be done, but still requires close monitoring or it can lead to more costly errors than just having a decent small QC Dept. I have a feeling they ran quite a few barrels like mine in 2007 and didn't want to scrap them, just a feeling not a proven fact. 2) Their lack of a good, current customer service dept. Nonhelpful, complacent CS depts. don't help customer relations one bit and only creates ill feelings....they could try harder without costing themselves too much more money (time). These are my opinions based on experience in the manufacturing world and my current experience with H&R Customer Service. I still don't see a solution to my current problem other than the 3 choices I mentioned earlier. Oh well, all my griping in the world won't help but I did need to elaborate somewhat. Seeing as they won't have any barrels until later this year (whenever that is) I will probably do the mod/repair I previously spoke of. Whoever made barrels in 2007...inexcusable.

[quickdtoo]

Traditionally repairs get priority on barrel availability, you can check the Ilion satisfaction poll in the FAQs for reports on repairs.

Marlin has been making H&R barrels since late 2006/early 2007, but H&R would have finished the barrels, cutting dovetails, welding underlugs on and such. Gardner didnt have the same communication issues Ilion has, Gardner CS was in the same facility as manufacturing.

Tim

[David I.]

Thanks for the info Tim. I guess at this point in time it doesn't really matter which plant or company was at fault for my barrel problem but it is nice to know. I still can't excuse them for allowing my barrel to leave their plant. I also can't excuse their current CS Dept. for not being willing to look into when barrels will be available and supllying me with an approximation. I believe you that repairs probably get priority but asking for an approx. turn around time is not an unreasonable request. At this point in time I'm not willing to send my gun in and just be expected to wait God knows how long for it to be returned to me. Their CS Dept. needs to be more "customer oriented" than that. I guess the days are gone of "customer is king" as long as the customers expectations and requests aren't unreasonable....I know my request is not unreasonable. I don't feel I should have to send my gun in and possibly wait all Summer or longer for it to be returned (whenever barrels are available later this year). If they would be willing to just tell me approx. when barrels will be available then that is when I'd be willing to send it to them for replacement. I don't have any big doubt's that if and when they have barrels they could send it back to me fairly quickly, but that's not the issue. The issue is they don't have any barrels and aren't willing to comply with my reasonable request as to when they will. This type of request is a very common and reasonable request in the manufacturing world and should be dealt with accordingly. Their "unwillingness" to comply with this simple request does NOT make me think very highly of their Cust. Serv. Dept. no matter what their excuses are. Their repair dept. might have a good reputation but in this case they can't do my repair without a new barrel and they aren't willing to tell me approx. when they will have any barrels. "Unwilling" to even try to find out is the key issue here....I'm very disappointed in their attitude, my request IS reasonable.

[mtbugle]

One other oddity I did notice while shooting with the too high front sight was that even though my BP loads and smokeless at least trap door loads were 5" low at 50yds. The 10.0 grain on reddot under 420 cast hollow point for sub sonic loads were right on at 50. 1000 to 1015fps.
Thanks Don.

[mtbugle]

I got the sight in the mail last week friday. Lo and behold they sent the tall one again.(thought that one was not even in use anymore.) Yest. I called too late to talk to anyone. Today they are all out for trainning. Guess I'll try again tomorrow.
I will wait till this plays out to leave feedback on the cust service sticky.
Thanks Don.

[Mike in Virginia]

I ain't so sure the .584 is incorrect.  What IS incorrect is the WGRS.  I mounted a FoolProof on my BC and it mates perfectly with the .584. At 100 yards, my .405 loads are dead on with the FP adjusted very near the center mark.  That said, I'd want a lower front if I needed to drop 'em in at 200 yards or more, but H&R can't be everything for everybody.  I think they got it pretty close for the majority.  Just get rid of the WGRS, which is not much of a sight anyway.  There's my opinion respectfully submitted.

[mtbugle]

I would say it is incorrect for the factory furnished rear sight. But You are correct some other rear sights will probably match up OK. But doubt they want to pay more for those.
Thanks Don.

[quickdtoo]

The .494" sight is the correct front sight for the WGRS on a 45-70, the .584" sight works fine on the 38-55 with the WGRS, the H&R October 2008 price list doesn't list the .494" just the .584" which is crazy since the 38-55 was discontinued in late 2007! 

Good luck Don, if 'twere me, I'd be ordering a .404" or .494" sight from someone else just to get it over and done with once and for all, the .404" will likely give you the most use of any rear sight you put on the BC.

Tim

[mtbugle]

Thanks for the luck Quick. It is more a matter of doing a operational test of customer service and testing their dedication to make an error correction. If I wanted to just economicaly fix I would put a piece of about 1 and 1/2 underground conduit section under rear sight to get about .2 inch increase in height. I am pretty sure I have some longer screws that could be cut down to size. This might also help to get my fat face more behind the sight, therefore shooting cheek weld instead of cheek force fit.
thanks Don.

[quickdtoo]

I have some longer 6-48 screws I could send ya, they're .550" long, I bought a dozen from Brownell's to make a custom peep rail.

Tim

[rex6666]

I shot my new to me BC this weekend with 405gr. ended up with about
1/3 of the rear slide out over the base to get dead center at 100yds
i am going to do somthing just don't know what yet. can i just order
a .404 frt williams site from Brownells or do i need a part #? Maybe just
change out both for Lyman unless some one has tried some thing dif.
Quick what are you using on 45/70 BC?

[Mike in Virginia]

You'd think H&R would have a representative monitoring this site, someone who could chime in on behalf of the company, and someone to report to the company brass about what's right, and what needs fixed.  They're not going to find a better place for customer feedback than right here. 

[quickdtoo]

I shot my new to me BC this weekend with 405gr. ended up with about
1/3 of the rear slide out over the base to get dead center at 100yds
i am going to do somthing just don't know what yet. can i just order
a .404 frt williams site from Brownells or do i need a part #? Maybe just
change out both for Lyman unless some one has tried some thing dif.
Quick what are you using on 45/70 BC?

My 45-70 BC is scoped, but I'm using the .404" Lyman front sight on the 45-120 BC,  with the Williams FP target rear sight at the bottom of it's travel, 405gr 1500fps loads hit 1½" high at 100yds. Buffalo Arms is a little less than Brownell's.

Tim

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,1727.html

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=7959/Product/TARGET_FRONT_SIGHT

[gcrank1]

Rex, consider shimming under that rear sight to get your adj back into the scale. Cheaper, quicker and easier for now while you feel it out. As mentioned, you might need a couple of longer screws, but they are readily available and cheap too. If so, make sure you clean the locktight out of the screw holes in the breech.

[Buster95]

Just bought again a new BC today, so what is the best all purpose front sight??