The efffects of U.S. obesity on the great debate.

[halfbreed]

There have been some very good comments made here, I shoot and carry either a 357 mag, or a 45acp. Both are on the top of one shot stopping lists.
 I hope I never have to shoot in anger, but after 4 back surgeries there is no more toe to toe in me. And running ain't gonna happen.
 I figure 3 shots center mass, if there is any fight left then it is a head shot cause there has to be massive drugs or a vest involved.
 Hope I never have to prove it, but rather prove it than leave the wife a widow.
 John

[Squib]

human beings don't magically die because a few holes are poked in them, knifes do much more injury than bullets (due to the "holes" alone, I'm not talking hydrostaic shock) and do not close up quite as well yet people don't flop down dead from them either.  blunt force trauma doesn't cause people to flop down dead either unless it's a ball bat blow to the head, or a car wreck equivalent.  9mm (sorry dee) was made for penetration, capacity and trajectory- it's up to you to hit them in the face or centerline and mess up brain/nerves/spine and/or heart/arteries.  arterial bleeding can empty someone's blood in 30ish seconds BUT a shot out heart doesn't make someone flop down dead either.  it takes a few seconds for the blood in the muscles and brain to deplete and cause the person to go unconscious.  if you "bleed them" they still have approximately 12 seconds to FULLY FUNCTION without a heart even and then they drop off quick from oxygen depletion.  I've heard some fbi quotes in here, look up what I'm saying about bleeding in their (fbi) data, also thompson laguard.  9mm isn't made to do it's job as a hollowpoint but can with shallow wounds that reach vitals- with good shot placement- if it's three or four from a burstfire in a small group then the tissue between holes is compromised (like a shotgun blast).  this works in your favor great if it's hp's, if it's not then you have penetration right to the spine going for you with fmj's (keep shooting center/medial line and you'll hit that spine soon enough, they are closing on you). 

I've personally tested the blood loss theory, by getting hit by a bomb and losing LOTS but staying quite conscious and mobile for the next 12hrs.  I was anemic, weak and my whole body was atrophied for a year but I lived.  I'm quite skeptical of a gunshot doing the job do to blood loss alone.  I'm pretty sure that if you're going against a man that's not a sissy you better not expect him to drop from losing a bit of red.  How many of you ever passed out from giving a pint of blood?  How many went right back to your blue collar job like noting happened?  Imagine that non-issue plus determination and a massive adrenaline rush.  Some people don't lose their HOMESTASIS and get downed so easily, some do.  It's a dice roll so don't dare think that ANY small arms round is gonna drop someone from a torso hit (or a crappy, glancing shot to the head for that matter). 

cast bullets retain mass and don't drag/lose penetration but deform-gaining meplat and energy dump to a degree, also deforming instead of glancing off when hitting bone.... which helps dump the energy RIGHT INTO THE BONE.  Hunters use this theory to good effect.  The lead won't deform all that much on soft tissue but it will on bone, it'll flatten out on it and break it real bad, and if the bone is heavy enough THEN the bullet will petal or break up.  Think about what you pick out of deer.... less dramatic though.

[Squib]

A-P-A-I-L

abrasion- scrap
puncture- hole
avulsion- tear
incision- cut
laceration- ragged cut

abrasions aren't bad unless it's "road rash" and doesn't apply to gunshots.  puncture- DUH! that's what a gunshot is, a hole punched into the target.  an avulsion is something torn open (hydrostatic shock MIGHT be able to cause this but generally not- car wrecks CAN tear out livers and bladders), incisions are clean cuts and don't apply to this unless you were to have a hollow point open up so perfect like in the advertisments and add a little scalpel cut to the sides of a bullet wound, and lacerations are jagged cuts, which might actually happen- deer I've seen opened up seem to have this going down a few organs from frontal shots.  anyways, punctures and lacerations are believeable and punctures are prone to closing up really easily, lacerations are bad if deep or covering lots of surface area, avulsion is deadly but not likely.  big hole theory counts if we're talking 8ga shotgun but not from 9mm to .45 (which is 11ish, not a big difference).  I really don't think avulsion is gonna happen without a very high powered rifle hit.  bone breaking counts for something BUT what bones in the torso or nervous system count for stopping an attacker- spine and skull!!!!! shoot them in the head or spine to break bones and destroy nerves.

[Oldshooter]

Squib, I really appreciate your service to our country and I regret that you were blown up, and I hope you make a full recovery. Seriously I mean that!

That being said, some of these "mutliposts" that rant on about things that dont make sense to the conversation make me crazy sometimes!

[45-70.gov]

Squib, I really appreciate your service to our country and I regret that you were blown up, and I hope you make a full recovery. Seriously I mean that!

That being said, some of these "mutliposts" that rant on about things that dont make sense to the conversation make me crazy sometimes!

most of it makes sense to  me

[Dee]

I understand what he's saying, and agree with some, but I have also seen the results of actual gun fights first hand, and am not talking about mine. I've never been blown up. He has me there.
When Squib however, starts talking about stopping attacks with bone breaking rounds he seems to limit himself to such things as spine and skull. Yes, he has been to war, but this is not, Afghanistan, nor Iraq. This is a stroll down a quite street, an evening at home, or a restaurant that suddenly goes south WITHOUT, "warning or expectation".
Having taught the subject of fight winning, and been taught, I found many more facets.
Example: Try using a gun hand with a shattered shoulder on that side, or a broken forearm, or a mangled hand. Try carrying the fight to the opponent, with a shattered pelvis, hip, or knee. You have been contained my friend. Like it or not.
A heart shot will not necessarily, stop an attack if the opponent has the proper mindset to win. HOWEVER! Regardless of that subject's mindset, or determination, if his inner support structure has been broken down, he is done in the way continuing to "carry" the fight.
Given these circumstances one has only, to either finish the task at ones leisure, or leave. It's that simple. I have myself, sat thru class, after boring class, on the difference in concealment, and cover, ricochet shooting, and on, and on, and on. Thru all this training I got, and all the training I gave to others, it boils down to CAN YOU APPLY IT when life for a few seconds gets very "uncomplicated"?
We are not talking about suppression fire from high capacity underpowered handguns, which is mostly TV eye candy. No diving over car hoods, or hitting every thing you shoot at while at a dead run. We are talking about the twinkling of an eye, 7 or 8 seconds of stand there and fight, and then it's over, and there is a winner, and a loser. Both opponents will be lucky to get that many rounds off (7 or 8 COMBINED), unless it's the cowardly drive by, and it too will be over in seconds. It will most likely end, as suddenly as it began. Reflective muscle memory, calm determination, and  ENOUGH WEAPON POWER will, if God's intends, get you thru it.
If I have any of the theatrics going on described I intend to slip out of the situation, if I can. If not, I will step in, and get it over with quickly, with determination, and enough gun. The sooner the better.
Shoot outs I suppose can be fun "what if topics" to discuss, but as the saying goes: War is FUN! If ya don't get shot!

[Oldshooter]

Its just me I guess. and maybe its not that it doesn't make sense so much as it rambles on and is lengthy and convoluted. I come here mostly for entertainment and some of these post just dont do that for me! Nothing personal intended!
I was in one of those moods when I read those 2 posts and just said what I thought. Probably just my problem but no apologies for saying it though!

[williamlayton]

Hummmm--Fat, I think is the question.
Don't know if anybody dies or stops when shot in the fat.
Fat can dissipate shock from a bullet.
Fat can stop a bullet.
Give a fat man a burger and make him your friend--if he is that fat, run him to death--If he is that fat moveand shoot him all around the body.
Lastbut not least--if he is that fat just walk away from him, make the retreat by a hot dog stand and loose him in the aroma.
 
Blessings

[Dee]

Oldshooter, if I apologized every time I rambled (last post), and offended someone, I would never have time to ramble, and offend someone else. This whole site is here to enlighten, and give one's own opinion. Sometimes you enlighten someone, and some times you just give your opinion, and sometimes you get offended.
If GB sent me an email telling me I was permanently banned, it would probably make my wife's day, and I might actually do something constructive "more often".
Food for thought though. Youth many times is wasted on the young, but if they are at least polite it helps.
Squib at times has some not necessarily, realistic ideas as we all do, but he is thinking none the less, and is polite most times. I on the other hand can be a crotchety old fart.

[Squib]

I'm not trying to cut down anyone here, just pointing out the only way to INSTANTLY kill is to destroy the nervous system.

Forget the vet stuff if I sound like a convoluted know it all... just remember that not everyone is the same: some are chumps and some are nearly superhuman.  crippling DOES work, and yes dee is right- my training/ideals go from that combat/offensive mindset.  if I was carjacked and totally unaware then I WOULD get sloppy with my sissy 9mm and have to pistol whip a dripping red guy to keep him from choking me to death after I dumped a mag into him.  I don't argue that, I argue having the mental prep and enough ammo to stop it ahead of time.  maybe that's retarded?  maybe it's not?

45-70: can you help make sense of the shooter/hunter perspective with cast or solid bullets NOT being garbage?  blood loss and hydrostatic shock don't stop game or crackheads, hunters know about the actual organ damage post-mortem and that's you....

[45-70.gov]

Its just me I guess. and maybe its not that it doesn't make sense so much as it rambles on and is lengthy and convoluted. I come here mostly for entertainment and some of these post just dont do that for me! Nothing personal intended!
I was in one of those moods when I read those 2 posts and just said what I thought. Probably just my problem but no apologies for saying it though!

RAMBLE.........nobody  rambles  here

apology accepted....lol

[williamlayton]

You put your feelings in your pocket--post what you post and step back--sure some get offended--on the other hand, it is generally because they wear their feelings on their shirt sleeve and demand that all agree.
I have been in coffee groups with guys like that--they generally get ignored to death.
Hey--we are a coffee group and we do disagree. That said I knows I is right and I sure do feel sorry for you folks what is so wrong. I tries and I & I tries too show you boys the light.
Well, I do admit to being wrong once--in 19&54, found out I was right when I thought I was wrong.
Anywho
Blessings  

[Squib]

you topped 9 grand will!

massive body fat (neither do monster roid muscles) doesn't insulate skulls.  that was pertinent to the original question.  then again, a leg shot is a viable answer too- which would cripple a man too huge to walk around well and also cause massive bleeding to strain an already maxed out circulatory system.  I think that as long as we have a plan in our heads for when stuff hits the fan we'll not have to be a victim (instead of just spraying and praying).

I'll be honest though, I'm more afraid of little ripped guys that don't tucker out, or big swole guys that can smash me than fat people.  swole people probably take bullets better too since they're denser and don't have circulatory issues (but they're more vascular and easier to bleed with a knife).

[45-70.gov]

am  i  warped  or  just  observant

i  caught  myself  sizing  up a fat man as he  walked  through a restaurant

and  i was contemplating
  what  would  be the best  shot  placement 
if  i were  to be attacked  by a man  this size

i am  not  sure  my 125 grain hollow point  will penetrate  the stomach fat
will  the light bullet break  that massive  leg  once the parachute [hollow point] opens

on  such an  animal  the  WFN might be the right bullet

[teamnelson]

45-70, Like a poster in the briefing room at one of our FOBs. Be a friend to everyone but have a plan to kill anyone. No greater friend, no worse enemy. Round here the most common predator is in the 250# + category; best to factor that in a sd strategy like we do here.

squib made a good point on all the bodybuilder types. Increased blood flow and thinner hide, and I'd argue no more greater will than average. But predators are seldom willing to die for their prey.

[Squib]

tuned up athletes tazer better, fat people (usually!) are that way due to a lack of physical exercise/atrophy, so their muscles are not going to contract much when zapped (less seizing up because their muscles are "dormant") and they're packing lots more water to disipate the shock.

there's a tip, don't shock a fat guy.  you might kill a cage fighter but you'll just anger a sumo.

I agree with team nelson, plot on everyone.  look for windows to throw them through- if they hold on then slash them with the glass- if they block the cuts then throw some glass in their eyes- trip the fire alarm and push them into the stampede- knock them on their back and choke them so they suck up mouthfuls of water from the sprinklers- ANYTHING!  we aren't limited to just guns (those just require specific skill-sets and they're faster/efficient).  go get a copy of the old line system from the usmc- check the back chapters about disposal of enemy personel- that'll give you ideas and sick laughs.

[Oldshooter]

I think we are getting distracted here, The op wanted to discuss the great debate about 45 acp and 9 mm as it pertains to shooting fat boy attackers!

I maintain the 45 is still my weapon of choice. I dont have a tazer, or a shard of glass that I carry around!

[Dee]

I was thinkin the same thing Oldshooter. My weapon of choice is the 357 magnum, but can you get a holster for a shard of glass?  If so, is it a tension holster or a thumb break, a shoulder holster, or a pancake, or in this case a very scary "inside the waist band holster"?

[Squib]

glass from windows that get broken fighting in a restaurant, mirrors in a bathroom, window glass (chunks in your lap after a carjacker busts in your window)

you're both probably not able to whup a high school nerd, let alone a big guy, so I thought you'd need the advise.  guess I was wrong 

[Dee]

Sometimes Squib you seem to be playing deep left field. Everyone knew what you meant, it was humor. Other than being blown up in a foreign country, I doubt that your 20 plus years of life, has shown you much more than my 60 years, or Oldshooter's 50 plus years. I have a fair understand where glass shards originate, and I'm thinkin Oldshooter does too.
And you could be right, I might not be able to "whup" the high school nerd. But I don't see why I would have to. I do however, picture you as a fairly easy mark though.
Do you sleep in the bed, or under it?

[Oldshooter]

"Sometimes Squib you seem to be playing deep left field."


The defense rests!

[Dee]

"Sometimes Squib you seem to be playing deep left field."


The defense rests!

Come on Oldshooter. You can do better than that. He said me and you couldn't whup the nerd. I think together we got a shot. Assuming of course he meant himself.

[Oldshooter]

Well just maybe, "just how bigga boy are you?"

But we digress!

[Dee]

Well, I'm 6'3" and weigh about 250, but your gonna help aren't ya? I'm old'ern you, and don't get around well anymore. And I may not be 6'3" anymore. You know what age and gravity does.

[williamlayton]

I'm having painful thoughts ---probably will have nightmares-- about shoving a shard of glass down the front of my pants.
Blessings

[Oldshooter]

But look at the bright side William. No need to carry a 45 or a 9 if ya got your shard there where you have easy access! Just make sure you grab the shard when push comes to shove!     

Dee I'm 58 and a shade under 6 ft and out weigh you by 25 lbs. I'm the guy we're talking about here!     Maybe we can just tag team. So no one gets outa breath!   

[Dee]

I can live with that, and that was darn good advice you gave William.

[williamlayton]

 
Blessings

[SHOOTALL]

 Well if big guys scare ya then look at ways to work with what ya brung . In the old days i have heard buff, rino and elephant hunters would take out a leg to slow them down enough to get a head shot up close . Or just brain um . No one said you could only shoot the thickest part or shoot only once . But keep in mind large and thick don't always mean fat !

[Robert357]

Might as well add my 2 cents to the discussion.

First, I would note that currently the CDC says that 67% of all people over 20 years of age are either overweight or obesse.  So the obesse figures in the Original Post, are not too surprising.

Second, I would note that in 9mm, there has been a real change in bullets.  I note that there are a lot more 147 grain HP quality bullets out for 9mm than there use to be.  A long time ago it was either 115 grain or 124 grain quality bullets.  

In comparing the 9mm to the 45ACP bullet weight is an important consideration.  In the original study by the Army that ultimately recommended a 45 caliber handgun, the Army did research on human cadavers, dead and live animals.  This was due to problems associated with 38 caliber handguns in the Philipeans.  I have a copy of the original Army research report and what I got from reading it was that bullet weight was a very very important element in their recommendation.  In their report they actually tested 9mm in 124 grain truncated cone shapped bullets.

My recommendation is that 9mm in heavy bullets of say the 147 grain class will still be considered a "reasonable" self defence round even if criminals get super-sized.  We are now starting to see more discusson about shooting for the chest center of mass followed by the pelvis as a way of both stopping and immobilizing bad-guys.  I think that the trend of center of mass then pelvis will become greater as the population becomes super-sized.

While I everyday carry a 9mm, I also have a 45ACP (M1911-A1) and a snub nose Rem 44 Mag that I carry on special occasions.