The efffects of U.S. obesity on the great debate.

[mannyrock]

Dear Guys,

   I have always tried to stay fairly neutral in the 9mm vs. .45 auto debate.  In the past few years, I think that there have been great strides in the premium 9mm ammo, in the 127 grainers etc., which, in gel blocks at least, make them look like effective and reliable stoppers.

   BUT, particularly in the past 5 years or so, I have been stunned to see how many more obese, and truly huge, guys there are out there.  In the inner cities, and in the deep country, it is now routine to see guys that are 300 pounds plus!  The government reported last week that by the year 2020, more than 40% of the U.S. population will be obese!!!

   When I think about some hyped-up, drunk or drugged 300 pound criminal coming forward with murder in his eyes, and probably wearing a couple of layers of clothes, I've gotta tell ya, the thought of stopping him with that little 9mm round now seems utterly preposterous.    I don't think that even the most die hard 9mm fan would choose the 9mm in such a situation.

   I believe, that due to the obesity factor alone, in 10 years, the .40s and .45s will rule supreme, and the 9mm will be viewed as a totally "iffy" proposition for self-defense.  (Much as we now view the standard .38 special round.)

  Thoughts?

[spruce]

I think you make an excellent point.

Say, for example, a certain round/loading will give, on average, 10" of penetration in flesh.  That round/loading on a person weighing 140lbs would probably be a "thru and thru" or close to it, but on someone weighing 300lbs might only penetrate halfway or less!

Perhaps a good analogy would be choosing an adequate rifle for black bear versus an adequate rifle for brown bear.

[Cheesehead]

The lesser rounds might be better with fmj.

Cheese

[Oldshooter]

I went to 45 acp after the FBI guys were killed in Florida after they had shot the perps with 9's. so you are "preaching to the choir" here but your point is well taken and I also believe that FMJ is a good round, for a civilian to use for sure due to the fact that, the "you meant to kill cause you were using HPs" argument is prevalent in prosecution these days.

[Brett]

Well let's not forget that the guys in that FL shoot out were finally stopped by an agent with a lowly .38spl.
Once again proving that it's placement that counts most. 

[Oldshooter]

Well let's not forget that the guys in that FL shoot out were finally stopped by an agent with a lowly .38spl.
Once again proving that it's placement that counts most. 

Won't argue with "placement that counts most" ! Buuuuutttt they were "softened" up with some 9 mm pills before that!   

[williamlayton]

A 9mm IS a .38 Is a .357 Is a 9x23 IS a .38 super.
Just different loadings and casings---sometimes.
I agree with the original thoughts about weight and layers, upon layers, of fat.
Blessings

[Noreaster]

Good point! Quality ammo has done allot for the lesser rounds, but the 45 seems to work consistently when people need it.

[Empty Quiver]

Penetration will increase substantially with a switch to ball ammo.

What we are talking about is essentially a bald fall bear. The 45 does offer both deep, hopefully through and through, penetration and a hole less likely to plug with tallow. I agree that a 9mm hole is too small in diameter, just too likely to plug resulting in a unrecovered dirt bag.

Another good reason to develope a cat sneeze load for the .500S&W mag, name it the .500 S&W slob. That Alaska special snubby would carry nicely in a IWB rig.

[S.S.]

All right folks,
us fat guys don't care to get shot no more than skinny guys! .
One thing about us is that we are more apt to stand our ground.
Can't run far enough to get away so might as well use that
energy bustin somebody up!

[45-70.gov]

its  all  hardball  or  hollow points  when  you talk self defense
never a mention  of large meplat rounds

when  we talk hunting  its  all  WFN  or  keith  type/swc
and  hollow points are frowned on......hardball forbiden

why  the difference??

i  like to think  i can  cut a spine with a frontal  shot if attacked with a knife
will a hallow point do that?

[Oldshooter]

All right folks,
us fat guys don't care to get shot no more than skinny guys! .
One thing about us is that we are more apt to stand our ground.
Can't run far enough to get away so might as well use that
energy bustin somebody up!

Truer words were never spoken! 

[Anduril]

now ya went and hurt his feelin's 

[Dee]

Well let's not forget that the guys in that FL shoot out were finally stopped by an agent with a lowly .38spl.
Once again proving that it's placement that counts most.  

Not to argue Brett, but they made a very detailed training film regarding that shootout, and if I recall correctly, and I may not recall correctly, a Spanish agent decisivel slowed the mobility of the perps in shootout with an 870 Remington pump shotgun. I could be wrong, but on the interview in the film he talked about being wounded and having problems with working the action with his legs and one hand. The same agent name Mirelees did put the coupe de gras on the the final combatant,(Pratt, or Platt I can't recall) with a revolver, but he already was riddled with shots.
The Hollywood shootout was a poor tactics situation, and the determination of the perps. One guy (perp) was hit in a major artery and as he walked down the side of a car, every time his heart beat it splashed on the side of that car. It was erie to look at the actual car, and see how much damage this man had, and was still fighting. His mind set was incredible, and was much talked about in the training.
That shootout ushered in the new era of heavier caliber for the FBI. They at first went to the 10mm, but some could not handle the recoil, and it was shortened to what we now call the 40 S&W, which in my opinion is an excellent round for law enforcement, or personal protection.
Mindset is a class that I have taught, and seen work for me, and at least one officer I trained whom fought to the death, and won. That officer is now also retired, and living in east Texas. He recently in a conversation after many years, credits that class I taught, and I was happy to have played a small part in his survival. He gave me far more credit than deserved, for he always was a gritty individual.
As far as shooting fat boys with a 9mm, the 9mm although in my opinion anemic will usually always out penetrate a 45acp, and in ball ammo many times a 357 mag. It is CALIBER and BULLET SHAPE that is the 9mm's down fall. I'm sure most here know that the 357sig, is not a 357 at all but, a 9mm bullet in a necked down 40 S&W case.
I suspect a 45acp, 40 S&W, and the venerable 357 magnum will still handle the FATTEST BOY walking. And on the up side, fat has never been indicative of speed, and agility, but it does make for a much bigger target.

[tbird1960]

In the year 2000 at the Tulsa gun show a fellow walking in front of my table was accidently  shot by an off duty officer that was about twenty feet from the man he shot. The 40 smith and wesson took bone out the side of his leg and he eventually lost his leg. I think the 40 smith and wesson would be more than adequate for self defense.

[Dee]

I could not agree more. I think that the 40 S&W will, when there is enough police shooting data, will possibly equal the 357 magnum in one shot stopping power, and I am a true fan of the 357 magnum. However, if you've got a fast horse admit, that someone else may have one just as fast. It is a great caliber, and is chambered in numerous quality handguns.
I think it would make an excellent six-gun round with moon clips.

[gwhilikerz]

Not sure I understand some points of view on this topic. I have favored the 45 for many years and would scoff at anyone who dared say that a 9mm might be just as good. I even tried to show a guy one time that 45 hardball would penetrate better than the 9mm. He won. I see some of us talking about the size hole and which would bleed out faster. Are you really depending on your caliber to kill your enemy by blood loss? If a clean cut hole was the determining factor then a 148 grain 38sp wad cutter would be right at the top of anyone's list. At least the waddy would probably stop inside the body. IMO you do not need thru and thru penetration to stop a human. Any energy that is expended outside the body is wasted. The purpose of a defensive weapon is to stop an attacker. When it comes to handguns that calls for shot placement as much as anything. btw I most often have a 38sp within reach than anything else.

[S.S.]

 And on the up side, fat has never been indicative of speed, and agility, but it does make for a much bigger target....

Like a .45-70 bullet, BIG, SLOW but HARD TO STOP!!!

Heres Proof!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u2DqGdaxHs

[Dee]

And on the up side, fat has never been indicative of speed, and agility, but it does make for a much bigger target....

Like a .45-70 bullet, BIG, SLOW but HARD TO STOP!!!

Heres Proof!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u2DqGdaxHs

Is your point that his big guy has a heck of a punch, or are you saying that a person is required to go head to head with someone bigger, stronger, and in my case much younger than me, before I can shoot him? At my age, I have no intention of fist fighting with ANYBODY. If this guy came at me, with intentions of inflicting injury on my already beat up body, I would have to put a couple in him to make it fair.

Now back on topic. gwhilikerz, you are correct in stating that bleeding out an opponent is risky if he is still mobile and aggressive. That could take too long. Puttin a large hole in someone is sometimes not enough, but a caliber that is also capable of breaking bones should always be considered. If the internal structure is broken it will not support the aggressor regardless of his mindset.

[Oldshooter]

And on the up side, fat has never been indicative of speed, and agility, but it does make for a much bigger target....

Like a .45-70 bullet, BIG, SLOW but HARD TO STOP!!!

Heres Proof!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u2DqGdaxHs

 


Wow, that fat boy is plenty fast enough and can hit!  I do not know of him but I can tell you I would rather be his friend than his opponent! 

[Dee]

He's what I've always called a shooter. He's too big to whip, so ya just have ta shoot'em.
I figure my time in the ring with him would be about as long as it took me to get off the stool. No, after I was dragged off the stool, and then carried out of the ring.
How long do you think that would that would be Oldshooter? Two, maybe three minutes? Total?

[Oldshooter]

He's what I've always called a shooter. He's too big to whip, so ya just have ta shoot'em.
I figure my time in the ring with him would be about as long as it took me to get off the stool. No, after I was dragged off the stool, and then carried out of the ring.
How long do you think that would that would be Oldshooter? Two, maybe three minutes? Total?

Dragged off the stool? , at least three minutes!    

There was a day when i wudda got in that ring! but pardner, even that guy could not get me in that ring these days, even if he was behind me!

[Dee]

The only time I'd got in the ring with him was when the backup got there.

[S.S.]

Man thats "Butterbean"!
One of the best 3 round fighters in my opinion.
Go to Youtube.com and type in Butterbean in the search.
Cool fella out of the ring but a monster in it.
Don't think I have ever saw anyone really hurt him much.
This does bring up an interesting point, How much energy
could some of these people actually take in an impact.
Rocky Marciano's Punch impacted with over 900 foot pounds
wearing a 12 oz glove. I am sure some of the modern
fighters surpass this by a substantial margin. That puts
a 44 mag to shame.. Some one is taking the punches
from these guys so taking these kinds of folks out with a handguns
energy is a moot issue unless a perfect shot is made.

[45-70.gov]

its  all  hardball  or  hollow points  when  you talk self defense
never a mention  of large meplat rounds

when  we talk hunting  its  all  WFN  or  keith  type/swc
and  hollow points are frowned on......hardball forbiden

why  the difference??

i  like to think  i can  cut a spine with a frontal  shot if attacked with a knife
will a hallow point do that?

i  will try  this  AGAIN


i think a large meplat to the pelvis  would  drop any one
some   women  i have  trained think  the  nad  shot  is  funny

i  explained  it will structurally break them down
and  that  the  aorta  forks  off  into  the femoral arteries in that area too
also  that  a miss  or pass through  will shortly  go into the ground
not  completely through  the house

[Dee]

Not bad strategy for containment 45-70, but the upper half can continue to fight. Even if their bleeding to death in the process.
Forget the double tap, and fire until the threat ceases, as long as your hitting what your shooting at. A caliber capable of breaking bone, rather than glancing off of bone, should always be taken into consideration. Bullet configuration is paramount also, in the potential to break the bone structure.

[teamnelson]

watch biggest loser, usually like week 2 or 3, when they do the health assessment. this year they showed scans of the fat layers on these folks, all of whom were in the 300-500# range. The scans show inches thick layers of hard fat, some like 6 or more, increasing diameters by FEET. Its kinda revolting the first time you see it, but for this discussion it was perfect.

Fat changes density too, so a comparable gel test would have to have layers of increasing density. And on some of them, the fat sags over what would normally be weakpoints if it were body armor, like joints, high on side of the chest, etc. I might just strap a cheeseburger to my backside and take them for a run instead of shooting them - might be quicker.

[Oldshooter]

 

I might just strap a cheeseburger to my backside and take them for a run instead of shooting them - might be quicker.

  Now thats just wrong! Especially for a man of the cloth! Is it wrong for me to be laughing so hard?   

[Dee]

I might just strap a cheeseburger to my backside and take them for a run instead of shooting them - might be quicker.

  Now thats just wrong! Especially for a man of the cloth! Is it wrong for me to be laughing so hard?   

Now that was funny, and I don't care who ya are.

[myronman3]

9 versus 45?   i'll take a 10.        whatever you shoot, i agree, keep shooting until said threat is a threat no more.