New Micro Citori 12 for my wife ?

[StevenK11]

Over the last weeks I have been searching for a new shotgun for my wife.   The intended purpose is:

-   Mainly clay target shooting at the range (singles).  Open trap shooting; potential league use later.
-   Expanded shotgun use for sporting clays.
-   The rare occasional visit to the woods for small game hunting.

My wife’s general specs:

-   5’ 4”
-   Petite.  For comparison:  I’ll simply say that I’m  6’0”  200 lbs, and she is almost half my weight.
-   Short arms
-   Left-handed (she’s right-handed, but left-eye dominant.  She shoots all our rifles left-hand)

Just by coincidence, while browsing through Browning’s web site, I came across a new model of Citori O/U announced at ShotShow 2010.   The Micro Citori in 12 gauge:

     http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?value=008B&cat_id=013&type_id=482


Understanding the need for custom fitting by the gunsmith is often required, plus the special needs of youth/women sized shotguns, this model O/U floated to the top of the list as being close for my wife’s first shotgun.  The 26" barrel length of the Micro Citori does bother me, but then it might be sized right for the smaller person shooting it too; compared to the 28-32" typical barrel length of a guy-sized shotgun.

Before I saw the new Micro Citori, some of the shotguns on the list were:

-   Benelli  Montefeltro left-hand semi-auto 12 gauge.  
-   BPS Micro Trap in 12 gauge
-   BT-99 Micro 12 gauge
-   Various 20 gauge offerings

At home, I have a standard BPS 12 gauge.  It’s obvious from the get-go that the LOP is way too long for her.  She can’t even clear her own body to get the stock shouldered easily.  Arms are extended too far and weight of shotgun is obvious too within about a half-minute of shouldering.  

At the local sporting chain store, she was able to try out various shotguns.    Selection was limited, but she did shoulder the BPS Micro Trap 12 gauge, BPS Micro 20 gauge, BT-99 standard, and various standard Citori’s.  

The shorter stock of the BPS Micro Trap was a good fit, with 2-3 fingers space from nose to thumb holding stock.  It looked good and was a comfortable fit, but the BPS pump longer receiver put the fore stock too much forward still.   The LOP of 13 ¾” seemed about right though, and it's the LOP used for most "micro" Brownings, except the BPS 20gauge micro.

Some of the Citori’s she tried actually worked fairly well, aside from the LOP too much on them.   The BT-99 fit close, with the exception of the standard stock being too long; but the BT-99 is tied to standard trap only and I think I’ll have to rule that one out.   There was a BPS Micro 20 gauge to try also, but that stock was actually too small, and I don’t want her to get tied up with manipulating a BPS on the trap range (works fine for me though).  The BPS Micro has a very reduced LOP compared to other Micro Brownings.
  
I want to stick with 12 gauge, if possible, because I believe trap is really built around it and she can handle it if the shotgun fits her right.   We can easily reduce the shot charge to 1 oz flat (vs  1 1/8 oz), if reduction in recoil is needed.  

Lots of opinions have been typed here.  Would like to hear yours…

Thanks!


Steve
 

[Graybeard]

I think you are about to make a BIG mistake and turn your wife against shotguns.

Small folks need small guns true enough but light weight 12 ga guns are just plain painful to shoot with those ounce and an eighth loads most use in trap. BAD PLAN in my opinion.

I do agree I prefer 30" or on O/Us even 32" or longer for trap but a short person with a short butt stock will likely find such a bit too much. In the first place I'd not get her an O/U at all but rather a semiauto to reduce recoil and fit it to her. Let her shoot ounce loads as long as she's at the 16-20 yard line. Once she moves back further she might need more but not within that range.

Recoil is the one thing that ruins more shooters than any other. Personally I'm now down to using .410 only on clays and 20 semiauto on game.

[StevenK11]

I think you are about to make a BIG mistake and turn your wife against shotguns.

Small folks need small guns true enough but light weight 12 ga guns are just plain painful to shoot with those ounce and an eighth loads most use in trap. BAD PLAN in my opinion.

I do agree I prefer 30" or on O/Us even 32" or longer for trap but a short person with a short butt stock will likely find such a bit too much. In the first place I'd not get her an O/U at all but rather a semiauto to reduce recoil and fit it to her. Let her shoot ounce loads as long as she's at the 16-20 yard line. Once she moves back further she might need more but not within that range.

Recoil is the one thing that ruins more shooters than any other. Personally I'm now down to using .410 only on clays and 20 semiauto on game.

Excellent advice!   Thanks!      

As stated previously, I was looking at going with 1 oz loads to lighten up the recoil, vs trying to put her on 20 gauge. The Citori Micro weighs in at 7 lbs 14 ozs.  Doesn't seem too light; in fact it's a couple ounces heavier than my full size 12 gauge BPS pump.   This is NOT one of those Citori feather models.

[Graybeard]

You're correct at that weight it's not terribly light but a full pound or more lighter than a standard Browning Citori Trap gun or at least that much lighter than the one I had. It kicked enough for my tender shoulder even with one ounce and 7/8 oz loads.

My advice would be if you do get it to let her use 7/8 oz loads in it at first and only if more is needed and she works up to it really slowly should you push her to heavier even one ounce especially factory ounce loads are gonna kick.

I'd load up 7/8 oz loads of either #8.5 or #9 shot and let her use that. I assume she'll be at the 16 yard line at least for awhile and from there that's all the load she needs and IC choke will likely break more targets than a tighter one for her until she becomes quite proficient at the game.

We used to play a money game from 37 yards behind the house and I won it often with ounce and an eighth loads of #8 shot. I was using full choke naturally as it was really already about at the end of MOD range when you called pull and beyond it by the time you saw it. I loaded up a load that moved out at around 1500 fps and kept the entire shot column inside the wad. I was one of only two to ever run a perfect score from there at the range I owned by then.

[StevenK11]

You've got me rethinking the 20 gauge option again.   While we can use 12 gauge 7/8 oz or 1 oz loads, it's not the norm when finding shells, unless we reload.   When I do find them, they are higher in cost too.   

GB, as you know already, 20 gauge is standard with 7/8 oz and I can find them in bulk just about anywhere around Wisconsin.

That debate with the 12 vs 20 gauge for trap is deep and wide-spread on the Internet, so I don't want to stoke that fire again here.      Suffice to say that if I can get a heavy enough shotgun, within reason of course for her frame size, and then go 7/8 oz loads in 20 gauge, it may give her a longer lasting option that doesn't beat her up after a few hundred rounds at the range.

Scale.  It all seems to be about scale.  Guy-guns are a different scale for the most part.

FWIW, That new Browning Citori Micro is also made in 20 gauge with the same barrel length and weight as the 12 gauge.  She handles the shotguns with the 13 3/4" LOP just fine.  When the weight pushes over 8 lbs, thats when she's finding problems.

Gauge   20
Barrel Length   26" 
Nominal Length of Pull   13 3/4" 
Nominal Weight   7 lbs. 14 oz. 

Gauge   12
Barrel Length   26" 
Nominal Length of Pull   13 3/4" 
Nominal Weight   7 lbs. 14 oz. 


Good conversation GB.  Thanks for your time on this!


Steve

[Graybeard]

That 13.75" LOP isn't a lot less than the more standard 14.25" on the Citori White Lightning guns I prefer for my skeet shooting. Especially in winter I'd actually prefer that shorter LOP myself. I really do well with 14" and the extra quarter inch isn't a big deal on skeet range but does slow me a bit on game especially if it's cold enough to need a jacket or coat.

You can always have the stock shortened a bit and I'd do that and make sure it has a really good soft and thick pad on it for her. The type Remington is using now I think made by Simms Vibration Labs (but several others also made nice thick and soft pads) are excellent.

Balance of the gun has a lot to do with how well weight can be handled. Weight in butt is easier to deal with than weight out front yet in both skeet and trap weight forward actually improves scores so it's a balancing act to make sure the gun has a bit of a weight forward balance yet isn't too heavy for her strength.

So long as she's shooting from 16 yards and doesn't have really slow reflexes a 20 ga or 12 with 7/8 oz loads is plenty and yeah it's a lot easier and cheaper to find 7/8 20 ga than 12 ga loads.

Most low cost loads are gonna use either #8 or #7-1/2 shot. Up close like the 16 yard line I prefer #8-1/2 or #9 shot personally for thicker patterns as they have plenty of target breaking power to them and fewer holes in the pattern when using IC choke. That combination will make any novice look better and even pick up an occasional target for an experienced shooter that he might have dropped with a bad shot using a tighter choke. I think over choking is a common problem with folks on trap ranges. Until you back up to the handicap yardages I look at full choke as a disadvantage.

[StevenK11]

Finished reading an article on shotgun patterns a few weeks ago.   They said pretty much the same as you.   Think it was in one of the latest shooting times or rifleshooter magazines last month.   

Anyway, they were amazed at how well the Modified choke kept the pattern together for the most distance.   Full choke went farther out, but then fanned out quickly, like a trumpet pattern.   Highly recommended article to read.

Yes, we have Winter trap here that is held one day a week.   I've tried it, and luved it!   Very dark out in woods during winter trap with BIG stage lights shining from behind you.  Cool stuff.  Wish I had a pic to show you.   Yes, we would have heavier clothing on too, so that needs to be taken into consideration.

[Graybeard]

I've shot under lights. It's definitely different. If white dome or all white targets are used it's really quite easy to pick them up at night. Orange works but solid orange not orange dome is better if you use orange. White is best at night.

[bearmgc]

Please consider having her try the SKB O/U shotguns. I started out with the Citori line, and not being too familiar with O/Us, I thought I had to adjust to it. I found them much too blocky, and actually pretty hard on recoil, now that I've had more experience. I'm a little taller than her at 5'5 with a little more weight I'm guessing, and a woman. When I picked up the SKB 505, it was like it was made for me. I also love the Montfeltro LH, as it is an easy shooter, and because it is a semi, the recoil is negligable. I've also had many a good year with the plain old Rem 1100, which was cheap enough to modify for my tastes. If you have to spend big bucks for a shotgun, then spend more for many modifications, why not continue looking for something that fits her right. I have Browning rifles, which are great quality, and the shotguns from them were too. But there's other options out there.

[StevenK11]

Thanks for the info.   Yes, I've been approaching this a little too much from the "book-end" and not as much from the hands-on. 

A lot has happened since I last posted.   We've been spending time at the local dealers, trying on many shotguns.  My wife went through many Brownings and the conclusion was that they just don't fit her.   Closest fit was a some-what lighter 20 gauge Citori Lightning.  Not the feather-weights, just the regular lightning.   She could shoulder it, had great shotgun form, but it didn't shoulder right.  Everything seemed off, and not just the LOP of the stock either.

Nothing was really meshing up right, until the guy helping us finally pulled out something totally different....(and by the way, he was doing an excellent job guiding us in a very controlled method, ignoring brands and cost).   

When my wife shouldered it, the light just went on with her.  The fit was met by this response: "this shotgun feels like an extension of my body".  The shotgun?   A Beretta Silver Pigeon 20 gauge with a 26" barrel.  She couldn't get enough of handing this shotgun.  The swing of the shotgun felt right to her too.  Nothing appeared to be "whippy" or too light in her hands either.

Everything looked like a natural fit and balanced.  Kind of took me back when I saw this.  Nothing looked out of place with her shouldering that shotgun.  Cheek mount to stock, eye, grip, shooting stance, ...   all correct.  The guy at the store didn't stop though.  He also brought out another O/U Beretta in 12 gauge to check something.  It did fit better than the Brownings also, but the weight was again causing her problems almost immediately, and she could not get a good shooting form without doing some gymnastics leaning to the back.  Went back the the SP, and she was happy as could be.  He tried another Browning, a classy Cynergy, but it was like holding a block in her hands.   

She held a Montefeltro too, but the stock didn't allow her face to come up right behind the barrel.  Seemed unusually low.   It was a RH 12 gauge.  I know they make a LH 12 gauge too (remember she shoots leftie, which rules out many RH semi-autos).

So, that's where we are now.  The cost is higher than we initially expected, but she is going to have this for life, or at least many years, so it all averages out and is well worth it.   

[bearmgc]

Silver Pigeon, ooooooh, nice choice!

[Graybeard]

I can sure understand why if the Beretta Silver Pigeon fit her the Citori White Lightning did not. The small gauge White Lightnings fit me like a glove all three of them the 20, 28 and .410 and I tend to shoot my best scores at skeet with them these days.

The Beretta on the other hand I can't hit a bull in the butt with it's just all wrong for me. It feels fine in my hands and only a tad long coming to shoulder but me and them don't work together at all. Twas the worse waste of money I've spend I think well OK since the Browning 525 which also don't shoot where I'm pointing.

[StevenK11]

I hear ya Graybeard.  I couldn't believe it myself.  When she shouldered that Beretta, it was like it was built for her.  I wanted the Brownings to work!  In fact, when I shouldered the Brownings that didn't fit her, I found them just fine.  But I'm 6'0" 200 lbs.  

Women have different proportions in the cheek, neck, and some other places  .   The Beretta receiver is scaled different than the Brownings too.    

We're heading over to the near-by town to try some more shotguns tonight.   On a side-note:  I know that Beretta makes a White Onyx that is basically a Silver Pigeon, minus the fancy scroll-work and wood for about $1k less.   If she isn't attached to the art, then the plainer White Onyx might work as well.

The place we're going to tonight has about double the amount of shotguns to test out.   Should be a fun time!

Laters,


Steve

[Graybeard]

A local dealer had a .410 Beretta skeet gun a rather high grade I guess with loads of engraving and a fair bit of gold. It stayed there seemingly forever and for all I know might still be on the shelf there.

I bet I picked that gun up and held it lovingly a hundred times at least but already knew from experience that me and Beretta guns are not a good mix. It sure was purdy tho and I shore did want it just cuz it was so purdy.

I reckon it was the second best looking gun I ever saw in that store the first being a Kreighoff with the most beautiful wood I've ever seen on a gun anywhere to include photos in magazines and ads trying to sell wood. It was full figure over 100% of the surface. It almost looked fake it was such a high grade piece of wood butt and fore end. It took $12,500 to do it but it came home with me. Kinda wish I still had it but it really was too heavy for me. It was a 12 with 20, 28 and .410 Briley tubes. I shot it well but it was SOOOO heavy with those tubes that my poor old shoulder hurt so bad after carrying it a couple rounds I could barely stand it. I should have just gone back to using a toe pad rather than holding it over my shoulder while waiting my turn and it wouldn't have made the shoulder so sore.

The fellow who bought it was at a big shoot and he and some other guys locked their high grade guns in the trunk of one of their cars and went for lunch. When they came back all the guns were stolen. That was one truly beautiful gun.

[StevenK11]

Tried most of the usual suspects tonight.  Then....she shouldered a used Ruger Red Label 12 gauge......and it fit good.  Smaller palm grip and 14.1" LOP stock fit her well.    They wanted $1k.  Condition was excellent with 1 year warranty.     

Not interested in restarting the Ruger Red Label  "it sucks, it great" debate again.    It is what it is.  She found a 12 gauge that fit her well and that didn't handle too heavy to shoulder.    I don't think Rugers are known for being light, but the weight distribution seem to make it feel lighter than it really was. 

Anyway, we left without buying it.  FWIW, one point that the store guy brought up:   Berettas do have their stocks cast slightly for right-handers.  Ruger is cast straight.

[Graybeard]

Overall I'd say the Ruger Red Label guns I've held and owned were a wee bit on the light side as compared to say Browning guns. I've seen a few folks use them successfully at skeet and they seemed to like them.

I've owned a total of two both 20s the first being back in the day when Ruger first introduced the gun. They feel really great in my hands but they are another of those that for some reason just do not shoot where I look with them. I wish they did as I could warm up to one if it did.

I really do not like that automatic safety tho and unless you get it disabled you will find it a real nuisance on the clays range.

[StevenK11]

I really do not like that automatic safety tho and unless you get it disabled you will find it a real nuisance on the clays range.

The "fix" for disabling the auto-safety feature is pretty straight-forward and I'd feel comfortable doing it.   It was posted on another forum.  Luckily, its nothing more than removing the rear stock, and then gently filing the end of a push rod to make it a little shorter so it doesn't push and engage the safety.  No need to take the receiver apart.  Of course, Ruger or a gunsmith can do this for you too.