Author Topic: Shiney Bore / Dark Bore??? Bore conditions by the seller (Read 6788 times)

1911crazy · « **on:** January 28, 2010, 05:43:38 AM »

I'm about to pop my cork on this one. Hearing this drives me nuts. They talk about having a Shiney Bore as opposed to a Dark Bore? Is the shiney bore much better over a dark bore? How can we tell? Then i read that these rifles have very dark shootable bores.......

Were all trying to get the best buy that we can along with a good bore too. Then its an excellent bore, good bore, very good bores, fair bore, poor condition bore, pitted bore, very shootable bore, sewer pipe bore and the list goes on. Wait its a pitted bore yet still shootable or it should be still accurate.

To me; (maybe i'm not sure)

Having a shiney bore means its been shot alot. Could the bore be worn out i'm not sure. I look for thick sharp rifling.

The dark bore can mean two things; Its not shot at all and its in new condition. Or its used but it hasn't been shot much.

So what makes the bore dark in the first place?

I purchased a yugo sks from a dealer who said these have a "darkbore" meaning like it was a lesser grade. When i received the gun i found out its a brand new unshot/unissued sks. A close inspection of the bluing and there were no wear marks at all in the rails nor the bolt face told me its a new unissued rifle. Even the wood was unissued.

My point is we need to look closer at this "darkbore" and "shiney bore" condition and make the call ourselves on what it really is and whats acceptable.

Any other thoughts on this shiney bore & darkbore condition?? Does it bother you either way when buying a gun?? Help

S.S. & Mikey?

Help???

I can take any cold bluing and make it a dark bore?? Its just silly. I'll sit and pop a cold one now its 5 oclock somewhere right???

I check the throat for wear, the rifling in the bore top to bottom and the muzzle for wear when it was cleaned. Then we can tell if we have a shooter or not. This is why i always carry a borelite everywhere.

So what do you guys think of all this?? I'm just kidding but this thing about the bore condition is like a purdy woman its in the eyes of the beholder what we actually see?

S.S. · « **Reply #1 on:** January 28, 2010, 02:34:47 PM »

Dang man I need a cold one now too !
I look for one thing mainly,---Sharp rifling.
There are however several things that can cause a dark bore.
One can be dangerous and that is from actual Tempering
of the steel from the heat of firing certain types
of powder. Cordite being one that comes to mind.
It burns extremely hot. I would like to test some old
Enfield bores and see where they are on the Rockwell scale.

1911crazy · « **Reply #2 on:** January 29, 2010, 05:08:31 AM »

Sorry for the exceitment about the different "bore conditions" but so many come up with new discriptions its getting silly why we have so many.

Then i look at another mosin at the dealers site and it says these were used with corrosive ammo so the conditions of the bores may differ.

Come on either its corroded or not at all just tell us right?

Its just something to think about when looking at a surplus rifle or handgun.

spruce · « **Reply #3 on:** January 31, 2010, 05:48:29 AM »

I think it's called "creative advertising"!

When we buy guns sight unseen we're at the mercy of the seller - and some of them have no mercy. Their goal is to sell whatever they have, and they will come up with some pretty creative descriptions to move their inventory.

Best thing to do is try to unravel their "codes" - i.e. "dark, pitted bore, but good shooters" probably means "the bullet will come out the end of the barrel, but where it goes from there is anyone's guess"!!!

Another thing to watch for is what they DON'T mention. The seller will always emphasize the good points, but will gloss over or not mention the bad points. From experience I've learned that my definition of "good condition", "VG", etc is different from theirs so I compensate by ordering a higher grade and expecting to get "good" instead of the "VG" I ordered and that way I'm not so disappointed when I receive it.

Bottom line: It's a crap shoot - I've gotten some good ones and some bad ones, but more good ones than bad ones so I can't complain.

moorepower · « **Reply #4 on:** February 05, 2010, 07:03:03 AM »

Dark bores are corroded. Yes it means something. Dark bores often don't shoot well, but occasionally you will find an exception. A bright bore most likely has been taken care of, but could have been lapped. You can tell one that has been lapped, because it will still show pitting.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #5 on:** February 05, 2010, 07:07:52 AM »

Look in front of the chamber for erosion and crown for defects , .

S.S. · « **Reply #6 on:** February 05, 2010, 02:19:11 PM »

I am going to take some Blue and Rust remover and swab the bore with it on one of my
bark bore rifles and see what happens. who knows, might clean it up.

moorepower · « **Reply #7 on:** February 05, 2010, 03:21:28 PM »

J.B. would probably work, or fire lap with lead bullets from LBT. He has the correct compound. Wont make it new, but it should help.

1911crazy · « **Reply #8 on:** February 05, 2010, 03:24:50 PM »

Has the bore conditions and the rating system for the rifles change over the past few days?

I ordered a VZ24 czech in 7mm and i got a good condition with a darkbore.

The rifle i received was a well rusted and pitted vz24 and the darkbore after soaking it all night finally cleaned up to show some decent rifling but the grooves were pitted really bad. The rifle should of been offered as very poor condition or as tomato stakes. This is the worst rifle i have ever received. I guess i been really lucky so far. I contacted century arms about what they sent me and i haven't heard anything yet. I told them maybe they sent me the wrong rifle because this isn't in good condition nor is the bore any good.

Like i said the bore conditions and the rifle conditions aren't advertised correctly. They fudge the rules to make sales. I'm gun shy now with them but i'll watch who i purchase from now on.

I have 100 tomato plants that i need stakes for. A few vz24's would look awesome lined up with there bayo's on stuck in the ground.

Heck its not scrap or in very poor condition lets box them up and call them good with darkbores someone will buy them for sure.

You have been warned about the guns at century arms now the choice us yours. beaware..............................................................

Victor3 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 06, 2010, 12:15:53 AM »

"I'll sit and pop a cold one now its 5 oclock somewhere right???"

To make it even colder, hold it up against a rifle with a 'frosted' bore.

Mikey · « **Reply #10 on:** February 06, 2010, 01:24:30 AM »

?? The only time I have ever seen a 'frosted' bore is when a pitted bore was giving off a bit or orange rust, and that went away when I cleaned it. I've seen sewer pipe bores and shooter quality bores which were not supposed to be of the highest quality but even though pitted in the grooves they shot well with jacketed slugs.

It seems that with jacketed slugs, what you need is decent rifling - fairly sharp edges to the lands, or even slightly rounded edges still give you decent accuracy because they grab the bullet and impart twist.

Pitted grooves only seem to affect cast bullets and have a tendency to build up leading - at least for me - and that can be helped with lapping.

I have seen dark bores and dark bores without pitting and they shot well - can't recall seeing any pitting in those dark bores but as long as I could see rifling they seemed to shoot well.

It's too bad the action is so rusted and pitted - could have turned that into a good sporter..... jmtcw.

Is it beer time anywhere?

?

S.S. · « **Reply #11 on:** February 06, 2010, 03:56:58 AM »

Century arms is renowned for not talking to you after getting your money.
I don't do business with them any more for this reason.

1911crazy · « **Reply #12 on:** February 06, 2010, 04:52:36 AM »

Quote from: S.S. on February 06, 2010, 03:56:58 AM

Century arms is renowned for not talking to you after getting your money.
I don't do business with them any more for this reason.

Yup this is the feed back i'm getting too, most don't deal with century arms anymore and i can see why now.

This rifle needs a total rebuilding and some parts replaced like most of it metal wise, it just upsets me when they said its in "good condition" when it should of said in poor condition. My point is if this is in good condition what does there poor conditions look like? "STUPID ME" there comming off the same pile. Yup we have them in good, fair and poor condition and there's one pile of rifles they choose from.

I was thinking of going after a M95 Austrian / Hungarian mannlicher in 8/56R too. I figured I could reload it down and this little straight bolt carbine would make great hunting rifles for the grandkids. I have one grandkid on the way right now. As the years fly by it won't be long when he or she starts shootin too. Were planning to start them off young. This is why i stayed so long in this hobby its for the future family members now. But century has these m95's so i won't be going there.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #13 on:** February 07, 2010, 05:19:35 AM »

I think Southern Ohio Guns gets most of their guns from Century so that is no better. Several years ago I got an M95 Mannlicher from SOG and the only way I could operate it was by stamping on the bolt handle with my boot! I stripped and cleaned it, cycled the bolt a lot and it did ease up a bit but was still almost impossible to operate from the shoulder. I returned it to SOG and they did refund the purchase price but I was out time, effort and shipping cost. That was the third firearm I had to return to SOG so I won't be dealing with them any more. The only "deal" I've ever gotten from Century was a Zastava 16 gauge side by side which really was pretty nice for $139, I'd call it easily a $250 gun, but that was exceptional.
Firearms condition and especially bore condition is always a matter of opinion no matter what terminology is used to describe it. When I describe bore as "bright and shinny" I mean it is clean and free of pits. When I say it is "bright with some light pits" I mean just that. When I see a bore described as "dark" I assume it is heavily pitted and pay no attention to any further disclaimers, I don't want it.

1911crazy · « **Reply #14 on:** February 07, 2010, 06:13:19 AM »

So far, www.allans-armory.com , www.southernohiogun.com , www.samcoglobal.com , www.aimsurplus.com have never done me wrong yet for many years.

In the past Century arms has slipped a few iffy ones in on me but nothing this bad.

Like Mikey said, if i end up stuck with it i'll do before and after pics. I won't sporterize it but i will make it back to its orginal glory.(someday) Like Mikey says see how the barrel shoots first.

moorepower · « **Reply #15 on:** February 08, 2010, 11:35:07 AM »

AIM has always been good and with SOG I got two very good guns and 1 poor gun. Mitchels Mausers will sell you a very good Mauser if that is what you desire.

1911crazy · « **Reply #16 on:** February 08, 2010, 02:12:28 PM »

I don't mind getting an old war horse thats what i'm looking for a surplus military rifle. Its rust and pitting that i'm not looking for.

S.S. Your right there not talking with me. I'm not happy but i guess i'm stuck with it.

Mikey; You say these slightly pitted bores can be accurate?

mrbgt · « **Reply #17 on:** February 09, 2010, 07:08:16 AM »

I imagine most places are reaching the bottom of the barrel , and the rifles just aren't as nice as they used to be $:-\$

moorepower · « **Reply #18 on:** February 09, 2010, 10:33:12 AM »

It may be a perfect gun for cast bullets!

Mikey · « **Reply #19 on:** February 10, 2010, 01:11:19 AM »

Crazy: if there is enough rifling to spin the bullet they should shoot.

1911crazy · « **Reply #20 on:** February 10, 2010, 02:21:15 PM »

It seems to have plenty of rifling left yet. I may fire it first to see if its accurate or not. But my plan is if its not accurate to check out the crown and maybe recrown it first and then if there's no improvement I was thinking of fire lapping the barrel to clean it up. I was wondering if anyone has done this yet with bad barrels? There are two systems offered in doing this. If you did this before which system did you use or like?

Wheeler Engineering Bore Lapping kit
(comes with the bore lapping compound in different grits that we add to each of our bullets, then shoot them following the directions.)

Tubbs Final Bore Lapping system
(comes with the bullets in your caliber with different grits on them already you just follow the directions)

Since these two ways of doing it come with a coarse, a medium and a fine grit I don't think it will take too much to clean the bore up.

Its just a plan before i rebarrel it anyhoo i may get lucky so what are your thoughts on fire lapping?

usherj · « **Reply #21 on:** February 10, 2010, 03:01:34 PM »

I'll second 1911crazy's endorsement of allans-armory. He has the most consistent and conservative bore grading system I'm aware of. He grades the lands and grooves separately. I can recommend his evaluations without reserve. If you see a rifle with Vg+ lands and grooves that shine, jump on it.

1marty · « **Reply #22 on:** February 10, 2010, 04:24:27 PM »

I always found it confusing dark/light. About a year ago I picked up a swedish mauser 96 manufactured 1909. The bore was dirty and dark but the rifling looked excellent. After cleaning it up I took it to the range and I was shooting 2 inch groups at 100 yards. Recently I was at a gun show and a guy had a Mauser 98 (Israeli re-conditioned he said) and he said the bore was bright and shiny. Looking down the barrel he was right but the barrel had almost no rifling left. So, whats the answer. Beats me.

Victor3 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 11, 2010, 01:05:43 AM »

One outfit that accurately grades milsurp rifles is Empire Arms. I've only got one (Destroyer carbine) from him, but some guys I know have bought several over the years and have never been let down. His prices are a bit high for some items but they're hand-picked, and the gun you see in the photos is the one you get. You don't have to play the lottery that some sources require...

http://www.empirearms.com/

Mikey · « **Reply #24 on:** February 11, 2010, 02:35:40 AM »

Crazy - Hold On! There are only two fire lapping procedures I would recommend - one is the Veral Smith method and as you know, he has his own forum here; and the other is from one of his followers, Marshall Stanton of Beartooth Bullets.

You need to slug your bore first, then I believe both of these folks would recommend you fire lap to 1/1000th larger. They both sell kits with properly sized bullets for the job you want to do and neither uses multiple grit coarseness - they both use/advocate a specific procedure using one grit to impart the controlled wear that lapping should give you.

When you consider imparting controlled wear to a bore to lap it, think of all the bullets cast to the same size, then try and imagine how lighter grits could possibly lap out or smooth out the wear imparted by the more coarse grit - it may not work the way you think, but bullets impregnated with a finer grit will give you a morer even controlled wear and should leave your barrel very shiny, almost mirror like. At least that's what mine looked liek after I used the Beartooth process. HTH.

1911crazy · « **Reply #25 on:** February 11, 2010, 03:29:57 AM »

This post is going to be very informative with lots of info shared. I'll cover and answer what i know about to help others out and i'll look to others for suggestions and answers too. After all we all have some sort of experience to share here. Let me rate some dealers thru my knowledge in the past decades.

Empire arms; Dennis goes out looking for guns to purchase and he picks the diamond out of the gravel. He under rates the condition so your happy with what you get. You may pay a tad more but Empire arms will give you what your looking for in a better condition than the rating. He is on my list of the excellent dealers to deal with.

Allans Armory is pretty much the same as Empire arms he's a great dealer to deal with too. I've been very happy with my purchases from him too. Another one on my excellent dealer list.

So far Aim Surplus, Samco Global arms and Southern Ohio Gun are on my list of excellent dealers too but they don't always have the one special C&R item that Empire arms or Allans armory has to offer too, i find these two companies offer the more rarer stuff. If your looking for that one special thing to fill a gap in your collection. My point is we need to checkout them all first to see who has what.

Century arms has been sending me borderline conditions a few times now but they did clean up ok with not too much trouble. Then they torpedo'd me on this one. Now its buyer beware.....

And don't be shy to post here too. I don't care if you have one C&R gun or a whole collection your still a collector starting out with one too. You have a voice here too. I think everyone would welcome new blood here too.

I'm going to run across a lot of thoughts on my fixing up my poor VZ24 in 7mm mauser. I've never gone this route yet but it could be a common thing since the surplus military guns are running out as we speak.

Great ideas Mikey about the fire lapping guys here thanks I'll check into them. If the bore will clean up i'm golden. I have never brushed a bore to get it this clean before. It was very very bad with garbage in the bore. I finally seen rifling.

Now lets touch base on my rifles finish. It has really no bluing left at all. It has small pitts., a little patina which looks more like surface rust.
Now i have done some cold bluing before but every gun shop has there ideas on whats the best long lasting cold bluing. So whats the best / long lasting cold bluing you guys have used?

Where i am right now is i'm trying to get out the screws to take the VZ24 completely apart to inspect the metal below the wood line to see if its worth doing or not.

I guess I'll take pics along the way to show the rifle before and after results and do a whole new post about My VZ24 Czech 7mm project rifle. If this project is successful in the end you really can make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Buys like this can make great winter projects(maybe).

coyotejoe · « **Reply #26 on:** February 11, 2010, 04:17:10 AM »

Over the 50+ years I've been tinkering with firearms I have tried many different cold blue concoctions with very indifferent so-so results. Most kinda-sorta more or less worked, though some rubbed off about as easily as they went on. About a year ago I decided to try "Blue Wonder" and I am very impressed. It's a bit more expensive than the typical bottle of cold blue you can pick up at Walmart since it comes as a "kit" with the gun cleaner, blue and developer and you need all three since they work togather as a system. If you follow the directions EXACTLY and don't deviate or try short cuts you will get a very attractive and durable blue. It works just as well for touch up or whole guns.
I don't normally rave about any commercial product but I am impressed with Blue Wonder because it works.

1911crazy · « **Reply #27 on:** February 11, 2010, 10:06:15 AM »

Quote from: 1marty on February 10, 2010, 04:24:27 PM

I always found it confusing dark/light. About a year ago I picked up a swedish mauser 96 manufactured 1909. The bore was dirty and dark but the rifling looked excellent. After cleaning it up I took it to the range and I was shooting 2 inch groups at 100 yards. Recently I was at a gun show and a guy had a Mauser 98 (Israeli re-conditioned he said) and he said the bore was bright and shiny. Looking down the barrel he was right but the barrel had almost no rifling left. So, whats the answer. Beats me.

I'm confused too. I looked at a '95 chilean 7mm mauser and the bore was very shiney. Being very shiney scares me that its been shot a lot so its shiney. But like what was said above if its been over shot/over heated the bore will be dark and black (reheat treated). I guess we to go look at the amount of rifling thats left and how thick it is. I'm guessing from what i been seeing is most of these old war horses have thick rifling. Its the modern guns that have the micro bore rifling.

But getting a new rifle right out of the box thats accurate is a crap shoot too from what i been reading too. The some modern rifle manufacturers are saying that 2" groups are ok at 100yds. This pushed me more into the surplus guns.

mauserand9mm · « **Reply #28 on:** November 14, 2010, 04:11:37 PM »

How they shoot is the only real test I guess.

My Israeli (308) has a dark bore but sharp rifling but shoots good.

My Vergueiro (8x57) has a clearly pitted bore but sharp rifling but shoots good.

My Columbian (30/06) has a dark bore and roundish looking rifling but shoots good - actually this is after I trimmed 1/4" of bad barrel off the end. When I got it the rifling at the muzzle was gone and the hole was slightly oval - it wouldn't reliably hit a target at 50 yards. I initially tried to counterbore but didn't do all that good a job but still got all the bullets on paper at 50 yards (16MOA). With the barrel trimmed it now does 3MOA, and I'm happy with that.

mrussel · « **Reply #29 on:** November 14, 2010, 07:20:21 PM »

Quote from: mauserand9mm on November 14, 2010, 04:11:37 PM

How they shoot is the only real test I guess.

My Israeli (308) has a dark bore but sharp rifling but shoots good.

My Vergueiro (8x57) has a clearly pitted bore but sharp rifling but shoots good.

My Columbian (30/06) has a dark bore and roundish looking rifling but shoots good - actually this is after I trimmed 1/4" of bad barrel off the end. When I got it the rifling at the muzzle was gone and the hole was slightly oval - it wouldn't reliably hit a target at 50 yards. I initially tried to counterbore but didn't do all that good a job but still got all the bullets on paper at 50 yards (16MOA). With the barrel trimmed it now does 3MOA, and I'm happy with that.

There are also glossy dark bores and pitted dark bores. Pitted dark bores are just what they sound like,but Ive seen some that are glossy with sharp rifling,almost like they have been blued and thats exactly what I think is going on. If you let a thin film of rust build up,then shoot it and then keep repeating that,I think you end up rust bluing the inside of the bore. I imagine its not the greatest thing for it,but it doesn't seem to hurt much.