Northernmich. I think that these litle toys are not selling that well. They have been on the market for a number of years,so, maybe they are selling to some extant. I have had one,for a back up,but found that it was more trouble that what it was worth to deploy it. I think that the .17 may be a selling point on them ,we probably are going to see the .17 in everything from the smallest to the entire gamut of firearms,because of this... :grin: King