Author Topic: What calibers for grizzlies? (Read 1852 times)

BattleRifleG3 · « **on:** November 04, 2003, 10:24:14 AM »

I'm sure this question gets asked so often you want to strangle each person who asks it, but I was wondering what cartridges would be effective against grizzlies/brown bears.

I'm not about to go out on a griz hunt while in college or starting a carreer, but would like to visit Alaska and other northern areas, and would like to know what chamberings would be good for:
a.) hunting griz
b.) defending against one

Obviously you need high power. I had assumed that to hunt, one would want a long range flat shooting gun to shoot the bear at a distance, such as a 300 Remington Ultra Mag. For defense, one would want something much heavier and wider, such as a 45/70 or a 12ga slug. If I ever hunted I'd go with a buddy and one of us would carry each. Of course there are some cartridges in between, such as 338 Win Mag, 35 Whelen, 444 Marlin, and 450 Marlin.

So how far off am I? What calibers do you guys recommend?

Would it be recommended to carry a compact pump shotgun with slugs for defense? Or a semi-auto hi-cap rifle like a G3 or FAL (would double for defense against thieves in the back country, of course not in Canada due to laws)?

bearhuntr · « **Reply #1 on:** November 04, 2003, 04:51:43 PM »

Easy...
.338 Winny with 275 grain Swift A-Frames in tow. At 2,500 f.p.s. plus, no bear will hold out. It's effective far beyond any reasonable range to shoot and will handle itself up close and personal! Makes for a reasonable weight rifle for walking and packing.
best,
bhtr

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 04, 2003, 05:13:09 PM »

And it's pretty conveniently chambered in the BAR. Anyone know if the BAR would work just as well in the cold north country?

And is the 338 a bear (bare) minimum or does it get the job done with energy to spare?

Lawdog · « **Reply #3 on:** November 05, 2003, 12:14:29 PM »

BattleRifleG3,

For brownie's in Alaska the .338 Win. Mag. is about the most popular caliber. For a back up caliber most of the guides I've talked to carry a .375 H&H. One a .416 Remington and two .458 Win. Magnum. I have taken three brownie's in my lifetime, two with a .300 Weatherby and one with a .340 Weatherby, and if I were to ever go after another it will be with a .375 Weatherby.

As for defense against a brownie intent on ruining my diner then nothing less than a .375 H&H. Lawdog

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 05, 2003, 07:54:23 PM »

Does the 12ga shotgun with slugs have a place here, or should I file off the sites if I bring one?

And here's another question - If I had a BAR with an increased magazine capacity, would there be an advantage to being able to place multiple shots, as opposed to only a couple heavier shots with the 375 H&H? I'm talking multiple body locations, not spray and pray.

And how would 35 Whelen and 350 Rem mag compare to the 338? Heavier bullets, lower velocities.

Lawdog · « **Reply #5 on:** November 06, 2003, 08:05:02 AM »

BattleRifleG3,

A bear will cover 50 yards in 3 to 4 seconds, MAX. Figure in the time it takes to throw the rifle to your shoulder take a quick aim and how many shots do you think you can get off. Two, maybe three. Having a magazine that holds 30 shots just means there would be 27 unfired rounds still in there afterwards. If you really want to use a shotgun then use Benneke slugs. Forget buckshot, even 000 buck, completely. Read the article "A Guide to Rifle Choice for Dangerous Game" at http://www.african-hunter.com/Rifle_Choice_4_Dangerous_Game.htm and see what they think of buckshot for lions in Africa. If it isn't going to work on a animal weighting 500 pounds or less why would you want to use it on an animal 2 to 3 times larger with greater mussel mass in the chest area and with a thicker skull? Lawdog

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 06, 2003, 09:30:12 AM »

Brenneke Slugs are my favorite round in the shotgun. Are they generally considered enough? I'm just looking to learn about the subject, not about to go into griz country for a while, and I appreciate every bit of info you guys have. Thanks!

Maybe I should just list a few calibers to get views on. I know bullet selection is important too.
1. 35 Whelen/350 Rem Mag
2. 300 RUM/300 Wby
3. 300 Win Mag
4. 30-06/308/8mm Mauser/7.62x54
5. 454 Casull
6. 44 Marlin
7. 45/70
8. 450 Marlin
9. 405 Winchester

Lawdog · « **Reply #7 on:** November 08, 2003, 10:36:35 AM »

BattleRifleG3,

The reason I like the Brenneke slug is because of the way it doesn't seem to deflect around after entering the body. Seen enough autopsies where the old doomed slug had taken weird paths after entering the frail human body to know that I wouldn't want to depend on one for defense against a bear unless I had no other way.

As far as the cartridges you listed lets take them in the order you listed them;

1. .35 Whelen/.350 Rem Mag. - I have always like the .35 Whelen, a great cartridge but it falls somewhat short in energy for brownies. Same for the .350 Rem. Mag. in my opinion.

2. .300 RUM/.300 Wby/.300 Win Mag - The .300 RUM is a powerful .30 caliber cartridge, right up there with the .30-378 Weatherby. The problem is hunting the coastal Alaskan country shots are not going to be much over 100-150 yards. This nullifies any long range advantage these cartridges have. This also goes for the other .300 magnums. I wasn't happy with the results I had on brownies using the .300 Weatherby that is why I used my .340 Weatherby on my last brownie. But the results were to similar to those of the .300 is why if I were to ever go after another brown bear I will have my .375 Weatherby in my hands.

3. .30-06/.308/8mm Mauser/7.62x54 - Great cartridges but to under powered for brownies in my opinion.

4. .454 Casull - A very powerful handgun cartridge. Will get your attention the first time you fire one. In the hands of an EXPERIENCED handgun hunter it will work fine. But still not my pick for a defensive weapon against a brownie.

5. .444 Marlin - A good choice for a defensive weapon against bears. Due to a loss of energy at hunting ranges, 150 yards or more, not what I would use for brownies.

6. .45/70 - Even a better choice than the .444 Marlin.

7. .450 Marlin - I choose this one over the .45-70 for my own use. My brother in-law used my M70 .450 Marlin last year to take his brown bear at 120 yards.

8. .405 Winchester - Teddy Roosevelt's favorite in the M95 Winchester.

Hope this helps you in some way. Lawdog

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 08, 2003, 08:07:15 PM »

It really does help, thanks!

Do you mind me asking what the results from 300 and 340 Wby magnums were that you didn't like?

Lawdog · « **Reply #9 on:** November 09, 2003, 09:21:28 AM »

BattleRifleG3,

Don't mind at all. In all three cases the first shot got the bears to turn and bite at the entry wound. Then they attacked the first think that got in their way. Brush, tree, clump of grass and in one case another bear. I ended up putting 5 shots into my first Brown Bear before he went down and stayed there. My second Brown Bear took 6 shots. Both of these were with the .300 Weatherby Magnum using 220 gr. Nosler Partitions at near max levels. My last one was with the .340 Weatherby using Nosler 250 gr. Partitions at just under 3100 fps. and this bear took 4 shots from me and two more from my brother in-law. The Brown Bear that my brother in-law(same one) took last year using my .450 Marlin only took three shots and the last was an insurance shot. The first shot the bear went down and started to thrash around, the second shot stopped all movement. Third shot was just to make sure. This is more of what I want in a bear cartridge. While the .450 Marlin worked well at 120 yards I still want the added range that the .375 Weatherby gives. Lawdog

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 10, 2003, 12:31:39 PM »

So would it be fair to say that 375 H&H and 450 Marlin are pretty sure one-shot-stoppers, but that anything lower in diameter or in energy for each bullet diameter would come short of a clean kill?

Rusty · « **Reply #11 on:** November 19, 2003, 03:58:12 AM »

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 2:21 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lawdog Said:

Don't mind at all. In all three cases the first shot got the bears to turn and bite at the entry wound. Then they attacked the first think that got in their way. Brush, tree, clump of grass and in one case another bear. I ended up putting 5 shots into my first Brown Bear before he went down and stayed there. My second Brown Bear took 6 shots. Both of these were with the .300 Weatherby Magnum using 220 gr. Nosler Partitions at near max levels. My last one was with the .340 Weatherby using Nosler 250 gr. Partitions at just under 3100 fps. and this bear took 4 shots from me and two more from my brother in-law. The Brown Bear that my brother in-law(same one) took last year using my .450 Marlin only took three shots and the last was an insurance shot. The first shot the bear went down and started to thrash around, the second shot stopped all movement. Third shot was just to make sure. This is more of what I want in a bear cartridge. While the .450 Marlin worked well at 120 yards I still want the added range that the .375 Weatherby gives.

Lawdog,

Just another question on these bear kills. Were these large brownies, and when you shot them, was their adrenaline up, or were they shot when they were unaware of being hunted?

Lawdog · « **Reply #12 on:** November 19, 2003, 09:25:43 AM »

Rusty,

All bears were large Brownies(at least to us) in the 9 - 9.5 sq. range. All were unaware that we were around. Lawdog

Super Rat · « **Reply #13 on:** November 22, 2003, 12:09:54 PM »

LawDawg, I've been wondering if the Nosler Partitians are very good Bear medicine. I've read more than a few stories where multiple shots were required with them. Looking at the recovered bullets, I've been very unimpressed.

When you look at how the nose on them blows up, and leaves that tiny shank of little sectional density to carry on, it just does not seem like the best bullet, especially in the smaller calibers. Great for deer and Elk, but I don't really see the Partition as a good bear bullet.

Personally I think .33" is a good rule of thumb or minimum bore diameter, loaded with heavier weight bullets. The only thing the .30" magnums have going for them is velocity, which can just be a liability as far as penetration. I see the recipe as big bore diameter, heavy bullets, and moderate velocity.

This is an interesting thread, as I would like to take a Grizz with a muzzle loader some day, so of course want my backup/buddy to be ready and behind me with a good cartridge rifle. I have a nice Marlin .45-70 that I can load up to .450 Marlin specs. I also have a .350 Remington Magnum, and I have some of the old Barnes 300 grain bullets which I have the open sights set for, with max loads of course.

All things considered I would probably go with the Marlin, and load it with hard cast 500 grain slugs. However, with the 300 grain bullets I believe the .350 would perform on bear a little better than the paper ballistics would indicate.

Lawdog · « **Reply #14 on:** November 23, 2003, 09:14:41 AM »

Super Rat,

As far as Nosler partition's go I have no complaints. They did just what they were designed to do. Mushroom was almost perfect on those we have ever recovered. I do agree with you on caliber choice, .338 should be the minimum. Like I have said IF I ever go after another Brown Bear I intend to use my .375 Weatherby loaded with 270 or 300 gr. Partitions. I don't care for cast bullets because every one that I have ever fired acted just like a full metal jacket solid. I prefer a wider wound channel than seem to give me. Lawdog

Super Rat · « **Reply #15 on:** November 23, 2003, 05:02:49 PM »

Yeah, the recovered Noslers I've seen from the bigger bullets, such as for the .375 look o.k. But I've seen some .30"s where the nose has blown completely off, and then the left over shank is real short and light. I think I've seen some .338's that did that too. I'm glad yours "behaved" better!

I think that if you play around with the lead mix enough you can get some expansion with cast bullets. Maybe more an art than science to get it just right where you don't lead the barrel, but still not so hard as not to expand at all.

Of course I was thinking along the lines that when you get up in the .458" size, expansion is not as important, as you have a lot of shear size and weight working for you...I may be wrong!!