Author Topic: Science vs. God (Read 9423 times)

NIL · « **Reply #60 on:** April 04, 2012, 01:48:59 PM »

Great thread you started here, Veral.

Dixie Dude, thanks for that last post.

One main problem is that people who have not believed cast judgment on those who have. In my 40 years, one thing I've learned is to shut my mouth, especially in the presence of those who have experienced what I have not. Unbelievers are like those who have never seen an airplane or flown in one vehemently arguing with those who have, saying that it's just not possible. It would be just as foolish for me to argue with Veral about making bullets. No, I shut up and listen. It's foolish for unbelievers to argue that there is no God when many of us have "experienced" Him. Man's pride will lead him into all sorts of predicaments and dead ends, as long as he doesn't have to bend the knee. Not much any of us can do about it. Rarely if ever can someone be "argued" into believing. Best to just live the way the Good Lord commanded us to, and let that speak for itself.

BAGTIC · « **Reply #61 on:** April 05, 2012, 06:06:14 PM »

There is no conflict between God and science. Science is the study of natural law as created by God.
The problem is that many people confuse God with religiosity. Religiosity is not a belief in God. It is a belief in the customs and traditions of men, the same customs and traditions which Jesus said he came to abolish.

BisleyMan · « **Reply #62 on:** May 28, 2012, 03:03:02 AM »

The problem with the "science versus god" debate that I feel compelled to point out is that science is willingly and joyfully utilized in virtually every aspect of life, including the development of the technology used to facilitate this debate, yet it is denied access to our critical faculties when very specific subjects are brought up. Science is used to develop and test the tensile strength and designs of our firearms, to develop and test the bullet lube, bullet designs, and alloys of our cast bullets, to develop and test powder and primers. We accept this without hesitation and rely on it exclusively in these realms. Why is it that, when it comes to how complex life came to be, many of us rely on the musings of bronze-age tribesmen from the middle east? Science- the same science we rely on to test our bullet designs- (physics, chemistry etc.) demonstrates to us that life has evolved from very simple beginnings to that which we now observe, yet many of us dogmatically cling to anachronistic mythologies and deny reality.

I do feel justified in challenging the beliefs of christians, because I was one myself for most of my life. I have felt the emotional upwelling that many attribute to the “experience” of a god. I have prayed thousands of times (though never once received an answer, with the possible exception of “no”). Now that I have totally lost all belief in gods, it has become possible for me to realize that I am responsible for my morality, my personal development, and helping others. I do not do so to incur the pleasure- or ward off the wrath- of an omniscient superbeing, but to further my own development, and that of others to the extent that this is possible.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
- Charles Darwin

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #63 on:** May 29, 2012, 09:14:38 AM »

One thing I forgot to mention. Sir Issac Newton, the father of modern science, was a Christian minister. He discovered gravity and wrote the laws of physics. I think he said discovery was only man finding out what God already knew, and the laws God put in motion. Therefore true science doesn't conflict with God. Archeologists did more the last 100 years or so to prove the Bible. In the 1800's some scientists didn't believe Ninivah or Babylon existed. Archeologists found the ancient cities just as the Bible said and described.

ironglow · « **Reply #64 on:** May 30, 2012, 10:10:17 AM »

Quote from: docmagnum357 on February 04, 2010, 04:02:30 PM

Proaound statements, gentlemen, profound. Statements like these cut throught the denominations, the creeds, the dogmas that seperate us and get to the heart of the thing. What did God tell Moses? "I am that I am. Tell them I Am has sent you" The more that you read and study, the more obvious it becomes that the problem is God not dwelling with us. When he sent Jesus to die on the Cross, It was to restore our fellowship with him.He is there, listening, waiting for each of us to reach out and take the tiny feeble step required, which is to call Jesus "LOrd". Sums it up pretty well, huh?

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

One small correction Doc;
God is Father, Son & Holy Spirit.. When we are saved, the Holy Spirit dwells within us. He not only is with us, He is within us ! Sometimes we don't listen to Him as we should, but that would be our fault.

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" (1 Cor 6:19)

Veral · « **Reply #65 on:** June 05, 2012, 05:05:54 PM »

Answer to Bisley man.
Sorry about your about face toward the Almighty Creator God who is your Father.

You give a Darwin quote, which I believe he in effect withdrew as he lay adying. He stated then, "Maybe I was wrong."

What a horrible question to have in ones mind with no ray of hope, which is where one stands if they are not sure whether they are write or wrong, and staring death in the face.

I would like to offer some advise to you. -- You stated that you never had a prayer answered. You aren't alone among people who say they are Christians or once were, but I believe this fact indicates that you have missed something important in your relationship with the Almighty. Answer to prayer is one of his promises, and a promise that no other god, of any other religion offers. If you've never experianced an answer, please try God for a while longer, or again.

His rules are.
Repent of all sin.
Forsake sin of all kinds. (He cannot tolerate it.)
Give your life to Him with no strings attached, and with that ask for his guidence in your life, and expect it. (Another of His promises.)

When you pray wanting an answer, understand that being a Christian does not make God our servant, but makes us HIS Servant. But He is our Father and not a hard taskmaster, because his love for us exceeds that of any man for his children. Also, the answer he gives doesn't come on friday like payday. He fits our requests in with all the others and often works them out so many benifit. Of coarse there are those prayers that are totally personal and answers MUST be very prompt or it isn't an answer. like raising my wife from the dead twice. (It had to happen pretty quick or I'd have called the undertaker.) Or two winters ago when I was driving an icy road and the pickup began turning. When it had rotated far enough around that I could see back where I had just come from and I KNEW there was NO hope of my gaining control, I said. "Father, please help me!" Instantly the truck began rapidly rotating back where I wanted to go until it was perfectly aligned in my lane. It was not a slow motion thing on the return, but rotated back quicker than when it was going out of control, and it didn't keep turning once it was straight in the right lane. I could feel the force that moved it quickly where it needed to be.

I one time wrote down the miricals which had happened to me in a period of 4 years in prison and without writing nearly all of them, filled 150 pages of legal pad.

The God you are abandoning is the real thing, and abandoning him as you have, because you saw no good from serving him is not actually a sin, as I see it, because you haven't done something knowingly against Him, but just gave up on something you feel isn't there. That is a thing called honesty, with is one of Gods most favored attributes.

Those who keep trying will not be lost, methinks. And I believe that is quite provable by the Bible.

NIL · « **Reply #66 on:** June 07, 2012, 04:17:03 PM »

Bisleyman, thank for sharing your thoughts. You sound a little resentful and angry toward religion, sort of like, "I tried that, it didn't work for me, so it's a bunch of 'bronze-age musings' and 'anachronistic mythologies'."

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The problem with the "science versus god" debate that I feel compelled to point out is that science is willingly and joyfully utilized in virtually every aspect of life, including the development of the technology used to facilitate this debate, yet it is denied access to our critical faculties when very specific subjects are brought up. Science is used to develop and test the tensile strength and designs of our firearms, to develop and test the bullet lube, bullet designs, and alloys of our cast bullets, to develop and test powder and primers. We accept this without hesitation and rely on it exclusively in these realms.

I am very cautious about having a glorified view of science and modern technology. Sure I enjoy some of its benefits, but I think a very strong argument can be (and has been by minds better than mine) made that it has hurt us and is hurting us in untold ways. I spent the first 18 years of my life in the primitive rainforest without plumbing or electricity. I now live in modern America, and see a society self-destructing in its worship of technology and science.

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Why is it that, when it comes to how complex life came to be, many of us rely on the musings of bronze-age tribesmen from the middle east? Science- the same science we rely on to test our bullet designs- (physics, chemistry etc.) demonstrates to us that life has evolved from very simple beginnings to that which we now observe, yet many of us dogmatically cling to anachronistic mythologies and deny reality.

[/size]Science does not demonstrate that life has evolved from simple beginnings. Many scientists are desperately trying to prove this, but it is disingenuous to say that it has. I would like to know why scientists are so desperate to prove God didn't make it all, that they're willing to propagate so many unscientific lies and stories. Why are they so threatened by the possible existence of God? How does His existence detract from science? Especially since so much of the science we depend on was discovered and articulated by Christians. And many excellent top scientists today are Christians.

What it boils down to is that man is going to believe exactly what he wants to believe, and God respects us so much, we are given that freedom.

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I do feel justified in challenging the beliefs of christians, because I was one myself for most of my life. I have felt the emotional upwelling that many attribute to the “experience” of a god. I have prayed thousands of times (though never once received an answer, with the possible exception of “no”). Now that I have totally lost all belief in gods, it has become possible for me to realize that I am responsible for my morality, my personal development, and helping others. I do not do so to incur the pleasure- or ward off the wrath- of an omniscient superbeing, but to further my own development, and that of others to the extent that this is possible.

You're a beautiful example of the freedom we are given as humans. Nobody is forced to believe anything. I thank God that our Constitution was written by God-fearing men. Because of that it is truly the best governing document in history. It is a shame that atheists are violating it to propagate their beliefs and biases. Christians should not be able to force their beliefs on non-believers (and they can't). Likewise, atheists should not be able to force their beliefs on others. Yet they do today. Schools propagate the lies of evolution all over our country, yet no one can speak of intelligent design or other alternatives. We are losing the freedoms given to us by our founding fathers to godless men who hate God and can't stand it that anyone believes in Him.

You say that now that you are an unbeliever "it has become possible for me to realize that I am responsible for my morality." What does believing or unbelieving have to do with this? We are all responsible for our actions. What Christian would deny this? You say you "do not do so to incur the pleasure--or ward off the wrath--of an omniscient superbeing." I don't either yet I believe firmly in this "superbeing." Not all theology is good theology. What you stated is bad theology. God is not some fickle resident of Mt. Olympus waiting to reward us or zap us based on His current mood (and our good or bad behavior). He is the Creator Who loves His creation and wants only the best for each of us. He loves so much that He blesses even the unbeliever in the hopes that His kindness will lead everyone to His kingdom. He completely respects our freedom. If we don't want to be with Him, if we want eternal separation from Him, then He lets us make that choice. He doesn't impose it on us. His desire is for the salvation of everyone.

I'm sorry that your experience of Christianity was such a poor one. Mine was too for most of my life. There is a lot of bad theology out there (just like there's bad science). However, God in His limitless love showed me who He really is. I discovered the real God of the Bible. I discovered what His words really mean, and it has made all of the difference. Atheists can rant and rave all they want against God; however, it makes no difference to those who know Him and have experienced him. How many times through history has some lonely scientist discovered something by his research that defied the "learning" of the times. He saw it and believed it and nothing could change his mind. Eventually the rest of the world agreed. It's the same with those who know God.

BisleyMan · « **Reply #67 on:** June 12, 2012, 03:04:14 PM »

I am somewhat angry toward religion. I feel that I was duped by it for so long and so deeply, and that a large part of my life has been wasted studying the bible, praying, going to church and bible studies, taking courses on religion in college and many other religious activities. I was very involved.
No one is more cautious of scientific findings than scientists themselves. They do not accept anything unless it has passed all tests- and every hypothesis is subjected to every possible test to attempt to disprove it. If it cannot be disproven, then it is elevated to the status of theory. Even as a theory, it is continually tested and modified as new evidence becomes available. Evolution has passed all tests that would disprove it. Every time a fossil is found (for example) evolution could be disproven if the fossil were to be found in the "wrong" sedimentary layer (a mammal in the Precambrian for example). This has never happened and evolution is now one of the most strongly supported scientific theories. Scientists are not desperate to prove this; they are very interested and passionate about getting at the truth. They would reject evolution overnight if it were disproven by some new piece of evidence, such as a fossil mammal in the Precambrian layer.
Though it is a common misconception, our constitution was not written by god-fearing men. Many of the founders were deists, which was about as close to atheism as most people got in those days. I won't belabor the fact, but I felt the need to point this out.
What I meant by me realizing that I am responsible for my morality is that I do not rely on a god to tell me what is right or wrong; I must use my reason, logic, and other faculties to determine the right course of action. There are no god-given laws or morals upon which I can depend. Nor do I want there to be. This is the prerequisite to true freedom; true responsibility. The morals laid out by the biblical god seem petty and far too heavy on the agricultural side (all the stuff about oxen and donkeys and whatnot). Additionally, there are stories in the bible- that are meant to demonstrate morals- that cause a secular moralist to raise more than an eyebrow. They are what we can reasonably expect from bronze-age tribesmen.
“Schools propagate the lies of evolution…” Seriously? I had to laugh when I read that. Evolution is sound science; at least as sound as the theory of gravity, the germ theory of disease, or the theory of general relativity. Please read Jerry Coyne’s book “Why Evolution is True” to see the evidence laid out clearly and distinctly. We atheists are among the most hated groups in America; we are in no position to force anything on anybody. On the other hand, the christians have been forcing their agenda on us since the first person admitted they lacked a belief in gods. You used to kill us (inquisition), but now you use your majority vote to pass your beliefs off as laws such as by blocking stem cell research, banning abortion and gay marriage, trying to get the laughable idea of intelligent design (I know it is laughable because I used to be a firm believer in it and studied it extensively in a christian college during my undergraduate work) taught in public schools, and many other “faith-based initiatives.” I would like to hear of even one item that atheists have gotten passed into law. There have been a few cases (not nearly enough) of atheists demanding that the constitution be enforced in the case of church and state not being separated, but this is the only thing I am aware of of this nature.
I have no use to rant or rave against god. It is as pointless as ranting and raving against leprechauns or invisible pink unicorns. I will continue to protest against the faith-based initiatives that Christians push for because they are too often based on ignorance and are very often damaging to certain populations.
Veral: I am much happier as an atheist; no need to be sorry for me. I have been freed from the chains of religion and could not be more content. I do appreciate your concern though. I remember what I thought of atheists when I was a christian, and I do sympathize. A little.
Darwin did not recant his theory on his deathbed, that is a myth started and propagated by christians. But even if he had, it would not matter. His was a discovery of the way things actually are- like Newton’s discovery of the laws of gravity. Evolution is unambiguously true, regardless of who recants or denies it. I have spent much time acquainting myself with the evidence for evolution, and I can tell you that it is fascinating, mutually buttressed (all areas of scientific inquiry support it), extremely well tested (thanks in part to the creationists pointing out any weakness), and absolutely incontrovertible. It can confidently be considered a fact. There is some confusion though about what this means. It does not mean that everything having to do with natural selection and the other mechanisms through which descent with modification happens is understood and explained, it does mean that it is a fact that we and all other life forms are here because we descended from simpler ancestors. That evolution happened- and still happens- is an incontrovertible fact. The theory describes how it happens.
I have much more hope and joy as an atheist than I ever found as a christian. In fact, I felt depressed and hopeless when I was a christian, which I was for the vast majority of my life (so far). I would no more “try god again” than I would volunteer for the slavery I felt as a christian.
I am not abandoning god, I have admitted to myself that I have a lack of belief in god. These are two very different things. I am being honest with myself. I do not believe and am no longer trying to pretend that I do. Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.
- George Bernard Shaw

NIL · « **Reply #68 on:** June 18, 2012, 06:10:03 PM »

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a large part of my life has been wasted studying the bible, praying, going to church and bible studies, taking courses on religion in college and many other religious activities.

I always felt that even if God didn't exist that following His ways were good for me and good for society. To me a life lived as if He existed (even if He didn't), was the best possible way to live. How can you disagree with that? Which of Christ's commandments and teachings are harmful to man? Which of them lead to a wasted life?

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[/size]Evolution has passed all tests that would disprove it.

If that's what you believe, then you have more faith than I do! Scientists cannot not even begin to replicate the conditions that might create a single cell (which is phenomenally complex), let alone something like an insect, or a mammal! You use the fossil record to prove it, but the same record can say something completely different to someone approaching it with a different set of predispositions. The facts are always approached with a bias. If you think otherwise, you are naive.

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[/size]Scientists are not desperate to prove this; they are very interested and passionate about getting at the truth.

I never got this impression, especially after all of the "missing link" hoaxes they've tried to foist on the public. They are an embarrassment.

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[/size]I must use my reason, logic, and other faculties to determine the right course of action. There are no god-given laws or morals upon which I can depend. Nor do I want there to be. This is the prerequisite to true freedom; true responsibility.

Without an external set of principles and laws, man is doomed to come up with his own idea of right and wrong. History has proven the folly and tragedy of this over and over again. You think the morals and values you've come up with are right. Well so did Hitler. So did countless other incredibly wicked men throughout history. I'd rather not leave the decision of what's right and what's wrong in the hands of a man. Anyone who thinks he's capable of being right in this area has an incredibly large ego, and that alone makes me afraid of him. What is your definition of true freedom? Is it merely freedom from a guilty conscience for violating the commandments of a just God?

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[/size]We atheists are among the most hated groups in America; we are in no position to force anything on anybody.

Are we speaking of America here? Who hates you atheists so much? Have you ever seen the documentary Expelled? Atheists run the vast majority of our education institutions. They systematically discriminate and "expell" those who don't see things the way they do.

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[/size]Evolution is sound science; at least as sound as the theory of gravity, the germ theory of disease, or the theory of general relativity.

Maybe to you, but not to me, and not to many credible and qualified scientists.

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[/size]You used to kill us (inquisition)

Research how many people were killed by "Christians" versus atheists (Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, and many others up to the present). There is no comparison. You should google the debates between your recently deceased spokesman Hitchens and Dinesh D'Souza. Even your atheist friends were dismayed by the outcomes. Mr. D'Souza argues very effectively against this same argument make by Hitchens.

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[/size]blocking stem cell research, banning abortion and gay marriage, trying to get the laughable idea of intelligent design (I know it is laughable because I used to be a firm believer in it and studied it extensively in a christian college during my undergraduate work) taught in public schools, and many other “faith-based initiatives.”

Either every life is precious and sacred, or no life is sacred and precious. If you want to read a chilling portrayal of a godless society ruled by science, read Brave New World and 1984. Every American should read those classics. I teach young people and every day I encounter the pain they live with because of parents who follow the beliefs you hold to. Talk to the women who have had abortions and live with the emotional trauma they have caused. What is wrong with "faith based initiatives"? Aren't these generally humanitarian efforts aimed to better the lives of the unfortunate? As I've mentioned, I grew up with natives in the middle of the rainforest. They had no electricity or plumbing or most of the things we think necessary for life. Yet they were more noble and happy and healthy than most of the Americans I'm surrounded by here in this country. We told them that many Americans believe that people descended from apes. They laughed and said, "They're stupid!"

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[/size]I would like to hear of even one item that atheists have gotten passed into law. There have been a few cases (not nearly enough) of atheists demanding that the constitution be enforced in the case of church and state not being separated, but this is the only thing I am aware of of this nature.

Once again you seem sadly ignorant of your own country's history. Not that many years ago, when my mother went to public school in New Jersey, every day was started with a reading from the Psalms and a prayer. Legislative sessions today are still begun with prayer. You don't know your own founding fathers. You don't know the spirit of your own Constitution. I believe the writers of it would be completely repulsed by secular and godless attitudes like your own.

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[/size]I will continue to protest against the faith-based initiatives that Christians push for because they are too often based on ignorance and are very often damaging to certain populations.

You must be seeing things that I don't see. What damage are these initiatives causing? What are you doing to help deal with the problems they are targeting? How are you being more effective than they are?

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[/size]I have much more hope and joy as an atheist than I ever found as a christian. In fact, I felt depressed and hopeless when I was a christian, which I was for the vast majority of my life (so far). I would no more “try god again” than I would volunteer for the slavery I felt as a christian.
[/size] I am not abandoning god, I have admitted to myself that I have a lack of belief in god. These are two very different things. I am being honest with myself. I do not believe and am no longer trying to pretend that I do. Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

My experience has been the exact opposite. Life without God was hopelessly dark and miserable. I honestly don't know how people make it from day to day without the hope, peace, and joy I get from a God Who loves and cares for me so deeply He knows how many hairs are on my head. Liberty is finally being and living who I was made to live and be. I think most men dread it because they would rather be their own god.

HL · « **Reply #69 on:** June 20, 2012, 01:12:48 AM »

Snopes is not as reliable as a lot of people think. They have been shown to be in error just as much as correct.
The whole snopes thing is just a guy and his wife sitting at home at their own computer reporting what they find on the internet, in the way of information. It's not an organization of qualified researchers. Snopes was exposed on either 20/20 or 60 minutes several years back.
So for me, I don't put a whole lot of stock in conclusions made by Snopes.

darkgael · « **Reply #70 on:** June 22, 2012, 11:36:43 PM »

I am always curious about discussions such as this one....and usually disappointed in them since they general have the same content, exhibit the same passions, quote the same inaccurate examples and ignore the basic issues.
In discussions such as these....there is usually a story about Einstein or Newton (this thread has both)....whether the story (-ies) is true or not is beside the point.....Albert Einstein for all his brilliance as a theoretical physicist is no more an authority on issues of faith than you or I (in fact, the use of such anecdotals as proof of anything - an "appeal to authority", is fallacious. And the fact that Newton was or was not a minister is equally beside the point). There is the obligatory example of the simple person of deep and enduring faith who successfully trumps the logical (and not very nice) "person of science" who would subvert his faith.
Faith - great, deep, unquestioning, enduring, passionate faith is admirable. It is also not logical......one of the problems in discussions like these occurs when folk start to apply logic to faith. One cannot prove that God (or Jehovah, if you wish) does not exist...science cannot do that. One cannot prove that HE does exist, either......acceptance of that is taken on faith.
(Puh-leese do not go down the path of trying to prove that either of those ideas is incorrect....they aren't).
One of the elements of this discussion and others like it that I find disturbing is that "Science" is perceived as an entity that is actively engaged in underming the faith of upright Christians (or other fundamental people of faith). There is no such entity.
Evolution always shows up and is either endorsed or debunked by whoever chooses to believe it or not. Those who do not are frequently armed with antique stories of "hoaxes". Kinda dated, those stories. Personally, I do believe in evolution as the process by which we humans, and other living things, have arrived at our present state. I see no contradiction with Christian belief in my acceptance of evolution. (puh-leese don't go down the "missing link" path - get some new material if you want to argue that point).
My personal difficulty with these discussions is related to arrogance - probably both sides are guilty. people of faith, seemingly do not recognize that their belief is irrational (THAT is not a criticism) and keep trying to prove otherwise. On the other side are people whose arrogance is fostered by the "can't you see the facts? They are right there in front of you."
I find myself almost always in the second group.
In my experience, those of you who have that deep and unquestioning belief do not understand how someone cannot believe as you do. Everything is so clear to you that you do not understand the skepticism of the agnostic or atheist. Quoting Scripture is a good example......scripture as proof of anything only works if you already believe. if one doesn't, then it is a collection of archaic and somewhat outlandish stories. Please don't let your faith take offense to that description: it was not intended to be so.
One of the "things" about "science" that I like is that it allows for error...it admits when it is wrong - that is what the scientific method is all about. Religion, on the other hand, never admits to error - God cannot be wrong. (that's why "creation science" is not science.
In any case...I'm gonna have some breakfast.
Pete

NIL · « **Reply #71 on:** June 27, 2012, 02:58:10 PM »

Hope it was a great breakfast, Pete.

A long time ago I heard this Newton quote and it has often come to mind: "In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God's existence."

Here's an interesting article titled "Proof of God in the Palm of Your Hand!"

Religion (specifically Christianity) does not deny science. How could it! Christianity and science fit very well together. What doesn't fit is the hokey scientists with a huge god-denying agenda. God and science were both very logical to many fathers of modern science. If you consider yourself better or "more evolved" than they were, well, you're entitled to that. I personally cannot find a shred a logic in evolution (look at the complexity of life, of just a single cell....an accident?....look at how everything works together in logical relationships.....observe how species remain their own species.....just consider the statistical improbability of it all just happening....nothing just happens without a reasonable and justifiable cause and effect relationship). All of the evidence I see points to a story that God made things perfectly, and very quickly we decided we knew better. Things have been going downhill every since. Consider too the social implications throughout history of an evolutionary worldview....marxism....the way the English treated the Australian aborigines since they weren't fully evolved....

darkgael · « **Reply #72 on:** June 29, 2012, 04:00:52 PM »

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....just consider the statistical improbability of it all just happening....nothing just happens without a reasonable and justifiable cause and effect relationship).

Improbable things happen all the time.
"Nothing happens without a ........" Nothing? Where did God come from? As well, the possibility that life as we know it in all its myriad and wonderful forms may have arisen from a single cell sparked to life in the primordial ooze ......why do you, evidently, consider such an event lacking a reasonable and justifiable cause and effect relationship?

About the complexity of life.....yes, it is marvelous....magical. Accidental? I don't see why that possibility is such a turn off for many people of faith.
As for me being "more evolved" than anyone. I don't know why you wrote that.
Many of the fathers of science were men of faith. So? Is their belief more of a testimonial than yours?
Than mine?
Pete

NIL · « **Reply #73 on:** June 29, 2012, 05:34:38 PM »

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Improbable things happen all the time.

But that has nothing to do with what I said. What I said was that things don't happen without a cause. As you pointed out, however, there is the exception of God. With evolution too there had to be an initial force or cause. Where did that come from? What was it? To my puny mind it takes a whole lot more faith to believe in evolution than it does in God. If I was walking around in the desert (where I live) and I came across a ruined wall of adobe bricks, I would immediately know that it had been made by someone long ago. Organization, even of such simple things as a brick wall, point to an intelligent cause. How infinitely more the organization of life!

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[/size]As for me being "more evolved" than anyone. I don't know why you wrote that.

I consider these men to be far more intelligent than most if not all of us today. They made groundbreaking discoveries, the magnitude of which we don't appreciate today. Our science is merely standing on their shoulders. Yes I place a whole lot more credibility in their faith than I do in the non-faith of today's academics and pseudo scientists.

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[/size]So? Is their belief more of a testimonial than yours?

To me it has a whole lot of credibility, just like the beliefs and philosophies of our country's founding fathers, which we are so set on distorting and ignoring today. They left behind plenty of writings to show us how they thought. Why do we think we know better?

I believe our "civilization" is just following the pattern of every other one in the past. We're approaching the nihilistic twilight of God-rejection. We just did it a whole lost faster than most of those other groups....because of the explosion of technology and communication.

ironglow · « **Reply #74 on:** June 29, 2012, 11:23:02 PM »

Seems an exercise in futility to devote so much space to George Bernard Shaw.. George Bernard Shaw's claim to fame was as an actor & playwriter... G.B.S. the first letter is for "George"..the rest is for B.S.
Oh, by the way, Tom Cruise is divorcing Katie..

Sometimes we wonder ahy disbelief and liberalism go so well together..like macaroni & cheese, or bacon & eggs..
A contemporary of Darwin, Thomas Henry Huxley (zoologist,biologist,athiest, UK) put it quite succinctly when he spoke of Darwin's ..Origin of the Species..he said;
" Every philosophical thinker hails it as a veritable Whitworth gun in the armoury of liberalism"

That was of course true, but as developments have shown..though the Whitworth gun was hot stuff in the 1860s.. it is quite obsolete now.
Thomas Huxley successfully passed his error on to his progeny. This famous family also produced Julian and Aldous, Thomas' grandsons. Julian was a disbelief advocate as was his novelist brother. Aldous did admit that his main reason for staying in the athiest camp was because if he were to be a Christian, it would place a limit on his political, sexual and libertine activities; a limit he did not want.
Evangelical zeal can be intrusive as practiced by some, but certainly so is loud misic, aroma of lilacs or diesel exhaust.. but in the case of evangelical zeal, it is an honest attempt by someone who believes he/she has found great treasure and would like to share it..actually an act of love..which can in some rare cases, lead to irritration.
Over all there is the question; When we walk that last mile and we do enter that dark abyss how will the believer/unbeliever fare ?
1) If the unbeliever is correct, the true believer will have lived a decent life and left "happy tracks"..

2) ..But if the believer is correct..where does that leave the one refuses to believe ?

darkgael · « **Reply #75 on:** June 29, 2012, 11:39:32 PM »

Nil: You write very well.
My reference to improbability was a response to the idea that "statistical" improbability is a reason for disregarding a set of beliefs like evolution (I do not wish to argue the whole "evolution" thing.).

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With evolution too there had to be an initial force or cause. Where did that come from? What was it? To my puny mind it takes a whole lot more faith to believe in evolution than it does in God.

That is a testament to your faith. You are willing to accept the existence of a being even when that existence contradicts your own belief that "nothing happens without a reasonable and justifiable cause and effect relationship". God is the exception. For many believers, that is fundamental. Faith is a great gift, isn't it? Faith allows acceptance of a being who has existed without cause, existed outside time, is everywhere at once, can create universes from nothing......
I do not find that that set of beliefs is at all easier to accept than the set of events that we call evolution.
There is no real argument here. Faith, as I noted previously, does not depend on facts or logic. (not meant as a criticism). Logic has little to do with faith.
I still am wondering about that reference to my considering myself more evolved or better than other thinkers......and why you would write such a comment.
I am hoping that you notice that I am not attacking your beliefs, nor the belief of anyone else. I am simply trying to put some perspective to my own difficulty with faith.
Pete

Swampman · « **Reply #76 on:** June 30, 2012, 12:07:41 AM »

I see no reason to reject God or science. When you know how all this started and where it'd headed you also know that they agree with one another.

NIL · « **Reply #77 on:** June 30, 2012, 05:04:13 AM »

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Over all there is the question; When we walk that last mile and we do enter that dark abyss how will the believer/unbeliever fare ?
1) If the unbeliever is correct, the true believer will have lived a decent life and left "happy tracks"..

2) ..But if the believer is correct..where does that leave the one refuses to believe ?

An excellent point often referred to as "Pascal's Wager."

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Evangelical zeal can be intrusive as practiced by some....can in some rare cases, lead to irritration.

Unfortunately true. And of me too many times. Wish I could shut up more than I do.

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I see no reason to reject God or science. When you know how all this started and where it'd headed you also know that they agree with one another.

Absolutely. It all starts with the presuppositions one has when approaching the evidence. And everyone has them. Nobody is completely objective.

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Faith, as I noted previously, does not depend on facts or logic. (not meant as a criticism). Logic has little to do with faith.

I have to completely disagree with you. Faith has very much to do with logic. It is a fallacious trick to separate faith and science into opposing camps. I have faith the chair will hold me, so I sit down on it. I have faith that God exists, so I base my life on it. We all look at the evidence and interpret it one way or another, basing our lives on those assumptions.

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I do not find that that set of beliefs is at all easier to accept than the set of events that we call evolution.

We would agree that there had to be something to begin with. Primordial ooze? Where did it come from? And if you subscribe to the big bang, where did the material for this come from? And where did the force to cause the bang come from? And what outside force was there guiding all of the amazingly miraculous mutations....that certainly aren't happening any more? Not just mutations within species, but mutations across the boundaries of species. It's all too fantastic, too illogical.

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I still am wondering about that reference to my considering myself more evolved or better than other thinkers......and why you would write such a comment.

Sorry if I was offensive. I see an attitude today that we know better than those "old guys." And it really bugs me, because I don't agree with it. I shouldn't have said it.

darkgael · « **Reply #78 on:** June 30, 2012, 11:19:58 AM »

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We would agree that there had to be something to begin with. Primordial ooze? Where did it come from? And if you subscribe to the big bang, where did the material for this come from? And where did the force to cause the bang come from? And what outside force was there guiding all of the amazingly miraculous mutations....that certainly aren't happening any more? Not just mutations within species, but mutations across the boundaries of species. It's all too fantastic, too illogical.

Where did those things come from? Don't know. They were, as far as I can see, always there.
Mutations not happening any longer? Since mutations occur on the scale of geologic time, how can you tell?
Too fantastic? Too illogical?
That is a good example of what I meant about people of faith not understanding the point of view of a person who does not have the gift. You find the examples that you cited as fantastic and yet don't blink an eye when accepting a being about whom similar questions could be asked.
Where did God come from?
Pete

NIL · « **Reply #79 on:** June 30, 2012, 02:05:08 PM »

Thank you for your honesty, Pete.

At least it's obvious we're both living from a place of faith..... You have faith in the unknown; I have faith in God. The "ooze" was always there; God was always there. Which makes more sense? I'll go with God. Not only does it make more sense logically, my knowledge of Him has enriched and blessed my life beyond what words can express.

Again, I appreciate your honesty.

Swampman · « **Reply #80 on:** June 30, 2012, 02:11:47 PM »

Mutations are pretty common and happen frequently even to mammals and birds.

NIL · « **Reply #81 on:** June 30, 2012, 02:53:21 PM »

Any scientist will tell you (and it's very easy to observe....on the farm or in the wild) that mutations in nature are never good. They always mean a rather quick death for the creature. And mutations are never of the consistency and magnitude that evolution requires.

Microevolution is obvious....when a species makes slight adaptations to a specific environment. Macroevolution, however, is a different story. That would require positive mutations (which don't happen), and huge changes that turn one species into another. This crossing of species is something that is genetically impossible.

Some of the very top geneticists know that evolution is impossible. They have come up with alternatives to God though. Anything but God.....

Swampman · « **Reply #82 on:** June 30, 2012, 02:57:35 PM »

Positive mutations happen all the time. That's why we has so many sub-species.

darkgael · « **Reply #83 on:** June 30, 2012, 03:02:24 PM »

Nil: I don't have faith in the unknown. I only accept the fact that there are things about the universe in which I live that are unknowable. I have come to believe that it is not important for me to know those answers.
I live in a universe that has always been there. You live in a universe created by a being who has always been there.
The difference is that you have endowed the creation of that universe with an Intelligence that I do not find logical.
Pete

PS - makes me think about the voice of God in scripture "I am Who am."
Or ....the universe is and always was.

NIL · « **Reply #84 on:** July 01, 2012, 01:27:34 AM »

Swampman, here's a short article explaining the scientific reasons that mutations cannot lead to progressive evolution according to the Darwinian model.

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I don't have faith in the unknown. I only accept the fact that there are things about the universe in which I live that are unknowable. I have come to believe that it is not important for me to know those answers. [/size]I live in a universe that has always been there. You live in a universe created by a being who has always been there.

[/size]The difference is that you have endowed the creation of that universe with an Intelligence that I do not find logical.

You believe in logic proceeding from chaos. I believe in order and logic coming from an intelligent source. In the day to day cause and effect world we live in, the laws of thermodynamics demonstrate that order never comes about by itself. It must be created and imposed by an outside force. That is logical. A universe that has just always existed, or a universe that has created itself, even though no new matter or energy is ever being created, is illogical. You do seem to have faith in the unknown. You believe that it somehow unexplainably all just happened.

Dee · « **Reply #85 on:** July 01, 2012, 02:35:37 AM »

The earth is balanced in the universe as to the point of a ping pong ball balanced on the edge of a straight razor. The moon for example, has an orbit so precise, that were it to vary even slightly the tides would become confused to the point that the seas would become stagnant and dead. Evolution did not happen to create such a diverse planet with everything working far finer than any well made watch.
To try and blend science and evolution, into the Creationism of God All Mighty is blasphemously flying in the very Face of God, and His power to do what He says He did, which was to create the Heavens and the earth in 7 days. Evolution is a man's attempt to bring God down to his level, whereupon man can appear knowledgeable and in control of his environment, which he is most certainly not. Anyone trying to make such a blend has no real understanding of God's word, or he or she, would not make such a statement. It is a show of heathen ignorance of the WORD ITSELF, and the denial of God's Power makes it blasphemous to God, and attempts to STEAL HIS GLORY. Perilous ground indeed. God in His Word says that Satan is "The Prince of the Air" and is at the present "running earth". He is however at times held back by God, but is solely responsible for the sorry state of affairs here on earth today. That is the reason God says; we as Christians are "in the world", but are not to be "of the world". We are to separate ourselves and be a "Peculiar people" attempting to become more "Christ like".
Therefore in the end, there is not one single atheist in Hell today. Upon arrival, he automatically becomes a full fledged believer, a fact due mostly to his sudden and extreme discomfort

Swampman · « **Reply #86 on:** July 01, 2012, 02:48:47 AM »

God created science. Everything he does is science. Religion is foolishness. God isn't.

darkgael · « **Reply #87 on:** July 01, 2012, 07:03:04 AM »

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A universe that has just always existed, or a universe that has created itself, even though no new matter or energy is ever being created, is illogical.

You are telling me that belief in the quoted ideas is illogical but that belief in a being that has just always existed, creates everything that there is out of nothing, knows everything and is everywhere at once...that is logical. Is that correct?
Pete

NIL · « **Reply #88 on:** July 01, 2012, 10:09:36 AM »

Just that belief in an extremely intelligent cause behind the wondrously organized effect of the universe is logical.

darkgael · « **Reply #89 on:** July 01, 2012, 02:51:46 PM »

NIL: That response begs the question. (I must repeat....I am not attacking anyone's faith nor am I belittling a belief in a deity. I am trying to reinforce the point that faith is ultimately irrational. That in itself is also not a criticism only a recognition of the nature of belief.)
I have not said what I believe, only that I have great difficulty with the idea that a universe that has always existed is illogical whereas a God who has always existed is not.

Pete