American Handgunner article

[david.bergen]

I just finished reading a John Taffin article in the july/august 1987  American Handgunner magazine.
Very interesting but also a bit confusing.

In the article he mentions a 260 grain bullet at 2350 ft/s in a 12 inch gun.
Also a 400 grain bullet at 1600 ft/s
The load data for the above  isn't included.
Tha data that's included isn't light either.
340 SSK lead bullet at 1806 ft/s in a 10 inch gun most other stuff is above 1600ft/s



In the article there is also a claim from Wayne:
How far can you go in loading up the 454?
The advise is to use all the powder you desire among the conventional powders 2400, H110,W296 and W680
"There was no way I could possibly hurt the 454 Casull revolver. I might ruin some cases but the gun itself could not be hurt."


Now I don't have any intentions for duplicating these loads but am questioning " Is this valid info?"
I also have the May/june 1989 Handgunner and it also lists heavier loads as compared to themost recent loads .
It seem that the loads are lighter now than they were in the past
David

[Ken ONeill]

David,
The loads in general use today, and those that are published in loading manuals, are indeed much lighter than some that were claimed and published early on, in the mid 80's.

John is my friend, so don't misinterpret this, but he has published some heavy loads in various calibers in the past, and I note that he has passed this "invincible period" and is using lighter, saner loads in general now.

My own strongest .454 loads run a FA 260 @ 1725 fps from a 7 1/2" ported barrel, and various 300's @ 1550 fps from the same gun. I used those loads in african hunting quite a bit. Several years ago I noted that the 1550 fps loads offered no apparent difference in killing power over 1375 fps loads on several head of game and no discernable field improvement in trajectory. SOOooo.... I began to save my knuckle.

I believe that the trend away from "How much can I use without blowing it up" in a given cartridge to "how much does it take to do the job well" has been a worthwhile and proper trend. Personally, if what I'm using in a given cartridge isn't adequate, I pick up a gun in a larger caliber.

[Graybeard]

I agree with Ken there is no need to see how fast you can push the bullets. No matter how fast you move them out compared to even the lowly .30-30 they are gonna be moving slowly. Velocity is NOT what handgun hunting with straight wall rounds is about.

If you need more go to a larger diameter and heavier bullet not more velocity.

My favorite .454 Casull load pushed  bullets from my Lyman 452651 (I think that's the right mould number) over 28.0 grains of W296 and in my gun delievered 1550 fps. The bullet is listed at 325 grains but from my alloy weighted 318 grains with GC and lube on them.

By the book it was a fairly mild load and while stout the recoil wasn't unpleasant and it did everything I ever asked of the round. Accuracy was excellent.

[Humbo]

I just can't get enough powder in a .454 case to reach velocities like that. What's the trick? I'm not going to try it, but 28-29 grains is about absolutely max of what I can get into a case loaded with for example a 300 grain bullet. And that is with a LFN with max nose length. I use Vihta powders, do the Hodgon powders fill the case that much less?

[Graybeard]

I sure don't understand that. I seem to recall I've gone as high as 32 grains of W296/H110 (NOT A LOAD RECOMMENDATION) but found recoil to be more than I wanted and accuracy wasn't as good as with less powder perhaps due to the reduced recoil.

All that is from memory I'm not looking back at my logs but I loaded so many of them I'm quite sure that 28.0 W296 and the Lyman bullet was my standard back then. I used it in both my FA83 and RB454.

[david.bergen]

I am not searching for such heavy loads, it's just nice to know that the gun can handle it.
Sort off,  the shooter becomes the weak part due to recoil.
What intrigued me is that there is a difference between the performance then and now (and the reloading data)
and off course the "brave" statement that the FA can handle it.
Sure I agree that the 454 is still more than powerfull enough for all the uses.
I am a 1200ft/s shooter and was amazed with the publiced velocity's
David

[Ken ONeill]

Humbo,
My 1550 fps load with 300's was 31 gr of 296 with Rem 7 1/2's, and a bit more would have fit in the case, but it may be that it would have had to be a bit compressed. The difference in volume may be different cases (mine were FA) or different bulk levels in the powder, or seating depths or....

[david.bergen]

Humbo,
Are you using Vith N11O powder ?
That's a different one than the H11O.
You have to use less off the Vith powder than the H110

[Lloyd Smale]

some of those original 454 loadings used duplex and triplex powder loading with two or three differnt burning rate powders and some ungodly pressures. They did prove though that the gun is about indestructable with any slow powder but like was allready posted here theres a line and its not a fine line between what works and what is just bragging rights. There is absolutely no reason to ever push a cast bullet past 1500 fps and we all know that real handgun loads have cast bullets in them. Now about the only use i can see for even pushing a jacketed bullet past that is if you want violent expansion on larger varmits but i have better guns to do that kind of hunting with.

[swampthing]

Maybe he crimped the bullet in the last lube groove, by the gas check!!  Over as much powder he could stuff in there and compress. Sounds like a recipe for the disaster of ones wrist... and possibly ones face.

[Bearbait in NM]

When LilGun first came into vogue as the end all for the 454, I decided I needed to give it a whirl.  As there was no pressure or real load data for the big heavies, 335 and 360 I used the tried and true handloader method.  X powder equals y velocity at weight z, therfore j powder, yielding y velocity at z weight needs x+too much   Needless to say, when Hodgdon finally published pressure data for these heavy lead bullets, I had a major ruh-ro moment. 

If there is such a thing as a FA proof load, I think I had them.  Lots of them   Not a single stuck case or irregular looking primer.  So yes, I suspect JT's data is correct, for what he was doing.  And I can attest that at my insane level, the gun was indestructable.  BUT, there has to be a line somewhere, and I can't even image the formula for shrapnel velocity for the formula x indestructable gun + y too much powder divided by steel fracture point.............

Craig

[HHI 812]

In my early FA 454 Casull experimental days, I chronoed a load at 2000+fps with the FA 300 GC cast bullet. Cases easily ejected right out. I use to call Dick Casull at home, and he gave me a few tips to try. I would not carry these loads for hunting though. A friend locally found out the hard way, that too hot loads can get you in trouble. He was hunting moose with his FA 454, and all of a sudden saw a couple cubs roaming around. He was just thinking where mom was, and the bear was right on him. He got of I think shots in the rumble, and a bullet jumped crimp, and tied up his gun. Luckily, the bear decided to leave. F&G never found a wounded bear, and friend wasn't sure if he hit her? Now days, he I shoot, is in my 4 3/4" FA 50AE, with 21.0 gr of 2400 with a 325 gr Speer(thanks for the load Ken O'Neill). Not the hottest, compared to all the bigger cartridges out there, but its accurate, and controllable for me.

[BigMuddy]

I like everyone else have noted how the earlier loads in 454's were much hotter. I "suspect" that the change came when guns other than Freedom Arms became available in the caliber. Correct me if I am wrong, but the cartridge did not have any SAAMI specs at one time, but now it does.

[Graybeard]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the cartridge did not have any SAAMI specs at one time, but now it does.

Certainly in the early days when Dick Casull was experimenting around with triplex loads in .45 Colt cases there were no SAAMI specs. Just when after the case length was extended andd the new name assigned it got SAAMI specs I'm not sure. Even today like then some folks just can't live with the limitations loading manuals place on them. Some think the FA83 is indestructible which like anything mechanical it is not. It's strong but it can be broken like everything else.

The smart thing to do is to stay with pressure tested loads from loading manuals and not get your load data from the internet and other unreliable sources.

Now days, he I shoot, is in my 4 3/4" FA 50AE, with 21.0 gr of 2400 with a 325 gr Speer(thanks for the load Ken O'Neill). Not the hottest, compared to all the bigger cartridges out there, but its accurate, and controllable for me.

While there is probably nothing wrong with your load from a safety standpoint Dennis I look at 325 grain bullets in .50 caliber kinda like I do 200s in the .45 caliber. They are rather light for caliber and have very low sectional density. Thus they are not the best for penetration. It still might work fine should you ever be called on to shoot a bear with it and for sure I have no experience shooting bears. But if I were to put myself into a situation where I might need to do so I'd not want to have a light for caliber jacketed bullet on tap for the chore.

[Ken ONeill]

It's not a brown bear load and was never intended to be so. It's an accurate, fun load. And, it will kill large hogs like a bolt of lightening.

[HHI 812]

Bill,

The 325 is a light bullet for a .50 cal, and even the 454 bullet I designed many years ago(and you tested) is a 345 grain bullet. I also had a couple molds made for the 500 S&W, when I was playing with them, and the lightest mold was a 440, and had a 500 grain, and shot some of the 700 grainers of a local fella, Ranger Rick. But lately it seems them heavies are not fun to shoot any more for me. When I was playing with the 500 Linebaugh, old friend John Linebaugh told me he had a fella shoot 2 elephants using 400 grain bullets. He said lots of folks are starting to get carried away with heavy bullets. I don't have the experience to say what it takes for them big bears? I have spoken to quite a few folks who have switched from the really big heavy bullets to lighter ones, because most can't handle the recoil, especially if one had to shoot one handed and with wet or bloody hands.

[Sweetwater]

JMHO - I believe a lot of us have gotten wiser as we've grown older and gotten past the "biggest and/or baddest" stages of our lives. We find we aren't 10ft tall and bulletproof and start realizing it's not screaming velocity with or without screaming pain (from the recoil) that makes these guns work. We see a lot more usefull data published today than ever for loads that work and are reasonably pleasant.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Graybeard]

I certainly don't handle recoil today as well as I did 20-30 years or more ago but then I never did go crazy over the really big stuff anyway. I also don't live or hunt in places where I need to be concerned about defense from big heavy and dangerous animals. My needs are different than someone in Alaska where a grizzly or coastal brown bear might be a realistic threat or a moose that might come charging around the corner of the house when going out to get in the truck in the morning.

I've really cut back to mostly the .44 mag as my heavy these days and in reality 240-300 grain bullets are all I'll need for my personal uses. In the .454 my favorite is the Lyman 454651 which drops at 318 grains with my alloy and for a real heavy the LBT 320-330 LFN are my choices. In the .480 Ruger I still have the Lee 400 mould and it works well as do LBT 420s. If I wanted/needed a more serious self defense gun for dangerous game I'd chose from those.

I wasn't trying to disparage the choice listed just saying I'd not consider it a deep penetrating serious stopper choice if that's what it's being carried for.

Rather than trying to push things as fast as they can be made to go I find velocity of 1000-1250 fps far more user friendly and they seem to get the job done when used with the right caliber and bullet weight. For fun shooting larger than rimfires the .357 mag and .44 mag have always and likely always will be my personal choice for fun guns. I use them with bullets I cast at around 1000-1100 fps and get accuracy and mild recoil in a load that is fully capable of taking anything I'm likely to need to shoot.

[david.bergen]

I went to the range yesterday and intrigued by all the reading I loaded myself 15 hotter loads.
I consulted the Hogdon reloading manual and saw they laungh a 360 gr bullet at plus 1400ft/s.
Because i use the WLN and a lot off the bullet weight is out off the case I had to use 28.5 gr H110 to get the same speed. This is with my powder lot, that seems to be slow burning. Velocity was 1480 ft/s es 68
No flat primers and very easy extraction. Group size  is 4.2 inch at 50 m with open sights.
So at first glance everything is ok untill I checked the knuckle on my middle finger. There was a small mountain on it. I shot 4 more shots but it clearly was to much for me. Flinching took over and my finger even hurt more. A friend of mine also shot 5 rounds with the same result. It was fun to try it (except for my sore finger) but do I need those loads...of course not , for me they are not very practical.
I enjoy shooting the gun with medium loads and going to stick with them.
I am glad I have a fantastic piece off equipment that can deliver the horsepower if I want , but as said earlier and in many off the above posts you don't need it.
David