Fillers for light loads

[Dixie Dude]

When reloading pistol power in a rifle cartridge for cast bullets, can you put grits or cream of wheat behind the powder to keep it near the primer?  I've heard you could do this.  Like .357 cast bullets in a 35 Whelen.  Or, is there a commercial filler you can use? 

[Smokin7mm]

I am sure Veral could answer this far better as to exact loads than I can or even will.  I will say certain powders lend themselves more to reduced loads than others.  If you are using a filler of any type you need to be sure the powder doesnt mix with the filler.  Some powders like trail boss are so bulky they do not require a filler.  Other good powders for some reduced loads are those like 4227, 4759 & unique depending on what you are using them in.  Always refer to a good reliable loading manual for these reduced loads as some powder are downright dangerous to use in reduced loads.
Bret

[Dixie Dude]

I have the Lyman reloading manual, I have lots of Unique powder, and I am getting into casting as I came upon a lot of lead a friend gave me who is no longer casting.  So, I see where you can use 13 to 19.2 grains of Unique in .35 Whelen with a cast 195 grain bullet, but it doesn't fill the cartridge very much.  This is the same for .308 and 30-06.  I have read where some use grits behind the powder as a filler.  I just want to verify this. 

[boommer]

Grits and cornmeal on a bottle neck cartridge would be a not burn off and just pack up in the shoulder and neck  and just probably cost you your FACE, hands and life in a bottle necked shell.Grits and corn meal is used as filler in strait cases Dacron is is a filler that is used in bottle necks.
I don't use fillers except for blowing out and fire forming cases. My theory is use a powder to fill the cases where you don't need a filler or just use a another CALIBER for the purpose your looking for.
 
USING THE CORRECT POWDER AND VOLUME IS CHEAPER THAN THE HOSPITAL OR FUNERAL
 
Those lite loads can ring your barrel and then you have a junk barrel.     

[Veral]

  I normally hit delete for answers that come in ahead of mine, fellas, but will leave the above two in place, with the following comments.  (Also, the word theory, and all theory is forbidden on this site!)  Just the facts and facts only!  My 'theory' is, better to say I don't know and seem ignorant than to give a theory and be known as wrong!

  Fillers work fine, like cornmeal and grits, if they are really dried well, but they are hydroscopic and the moisture they contain in damp weather, if not dried with heat before use can mess things up with the powder.  Because of this I recommend granulated plastic shot buffer.  However I don't recommend filling more than 1/3 of the case with it.  If the powder being used takes up less than 2/3 of the case, use it without filler, if it's and easy to ignite flake like Unique or the other pistol powders, or switch to a powder that better fills the case, to at least 2/3 of capacity and filler that. 

  Do NOT USE DACRON OR ANY FUZZ BALL FILLER!  THEY ALMOST GUARANTEE A RINGED AND RUINED BARREL!

  My main use for shot buffer filler is when the gas check of the bullet wanting to be used, must protrude into the powder room, or if leading problems arise before I reach the velocity level I want.  The plastic filler keeps the gas checks from inverting and wipes up any leading, when used as stated above.

  Whenever using a filler, ALWAYS use some compression so there is no mixing of powder and filler.  Also, don't just ad filler over a charge that is developing some pressure signes and pressures will absolutely rise dramatically when filler is added, due to much faster ignition and powder burning rate from the powder confinement.  Back the charge off a few grains, filler it and try the load.  Work up as seems prudent by heeding pressure signs.

  My experiance with the Lyman cast bullet manual.  I've found VERY FEW loads that could be worked up even close to their maximum without heavy leading and wild inaccuracy, with any bullet, but especially with any of the Lyman designs.  The fast powder loads prooves the worst offenders for me, except with the lightest loads given, or close to the lightest.  If you have lots of Unique to burn, and want to do it with a rifle, do it with light plinker loads.  Buy some slower powder, preferably ball type, for heavy loads.

  A neighbor who owned a garbage service 20 plus years ago brought me two large cans of Unique someone threw out.  I liked it because it was free, but used it slowly because I don't like it good enough to buy it for anything.  I think I proabably still have most of it, if it wasn't stolen back there when calamity hit us 11 years ago.  Still don't have all that sorted out yet.

[Dixie Dude]

Veral, what pistol powder do you use?  I bought Unique because I have a 9mm, 45acp, 357, and a 44mag.  It seemed to be a universal powder across the this spectrum.  I have a 35 Whelen and 45-70 also.  It can use the 357 loads.  I am also getting into casting.  I guess I am going to have to buy some different powder. 

[Smokin7mm]

Veral,
I appologize for stepping on your feet.  I had not intended it that way and tried to only list basic facts and safety on reduced loads and leave the specifics to you as I stated.  In the future I will keep my comments until after you have replied.
Bret

[boommer]

    Veral   I 'm sorry about the (T) WORD didn't know. My rule is just use a another caliber.
  If you dry your filler cornmeal or such? How do you get in the case fast enough that it don't pick up the humidity in the air?  some of us live in humid areas. Now if you fill a 30-06 case 1/3 of capacity put your finger over it turn upside down and tap it a couple of times to settle it, take your finger off and whats in the neck comes out and whats in the case body hangs there,now That"s settled not compressed.
Now if you pour cornmeal  in to funnel fast, it just hangs there. This is to just show very simply how sharp edged granules will bridge and bind together and restrict flow. This is fact.
I guess my point is, I"m not willing to gamble my well being on how much pressure on a consistent basis  it will take to blow through compacted bridging granules and a bottle neck cartridge and send it down the bore. Just because of free powder or I have a lot of it or a mouse fart load.

  Veral   I'M not saying your wrong here, But a material that does not burn well and bridge and bind together you cant rely on pressures in bottle neck cartridges not to spike,especially in large body small neck cases.  I have seen guns with ringed barrels, don't know how it happened, but how many guns and people have been damaged from mouse fart loads using fillers and incorrect powder for volume of case.

Maybe I'm off base here? I know guys that use that puf-lon and in this day and age with the powders we have. why fillers and the problems you can have.                                                       

[Veral]

   Quite frankly, I don't use the cereals for filler but they work fine.  To dry, just put it in a cake tin in the oven at a bit over 200 deg for an hour or so.  It won't pick up enough moisture to be a concern, even on the most humid days, unless it is left exposed to the air for at least 12 hours.  The granulated plastic buffer is inexpensive and eliminates all that.

  About compaction in the bottle neck case.  Yes indeed it compacts hard as a board, and leaves the muzzle that hard.  The buffer comes out as a solid piece of plastic.  That's what makes it work so well for scrubbing lead out of the barrel.  But I can't say the restriction in the bottle neck causes any measurable rise in chamber pressure.  The major jump in pressure that comes when a load is fillered is because it burns so much quicker when compressed, as this causes high primer fire pressure, and heat around the powder.  If you are chronographing you'll realize that by the extreme consistency in velocity variation when you filler.

  The reason puff ball fillers cause ringing is the same reason double bullets, or ice or mud in the muzzle causes the barrel to bulge.  The puff ball starts the powder burning fast, but also acts as a projectile/piston on the air between it and the bullet.  The ringing will happen real close to the chamber.

  In truth, it is wise to consider that I'm beginning to write more and more with a survivalist mentality, so shooters will be able to cobble accurate and safe loads from about anything available as things get less and less available.

  If you bought Unique.  It is unique in it's flexibility, but it burns hot and dirty, which is my main reason for not liking it as well as some other powders.  My favorite light load powder is Hodgen Universal, as it will produce close shot to shot velocities with charges as low as 3 grains in a 30-06 case, with the least smoke of any powder I've ever used.  There are many new powders which I've never had the opportunity to use though, as I haven't reloaded for the last 11 years, since the Feds tried to knock LBT into oblivion and claimed they owned my right to firearms.

[JDNC]

I use a filler product called Puff-Lon which I've been using for several years with good results.  I don't have to worry about humidity problems and it is as light as a feather.  If anyone is interested I can find the link and post.

JD

[Veral]

  Seems I've read that puff lon is a fiber?  If so I definately recommend against it's use, or at least if it is used fill the case full rather than place a wad over the powder with space above, which is what rings barrels.  A dead air space between wad and bullet.

  I failed to mention a thing which has become a solid rule on my loading bench.  Never use a load which the cartridge of interest can hold two of.  It is completly safe to do so if one is never distracted and if every case is checked in some way to be sure it isn't double charged.  I had a 44 Ruger blackhawk, which was stolen, which had one cylinder cracked and bulged till it wouldn't let the cylinder rotate.  From a double charge of bullseye behind a heavy cast bullet.  The case had a blown primer and fit the chamber awful tight so I just filed the cylinder till it would spin freely inside it's window and kept on using the gun for I guess 15 years.  This probably speeks more of Ruger strength than it does of my common sense, but it was the last time I used less than half charges in my ammo without being VERY careful about double charging.  With about 25 more birthdays since that incident, which helps me understand quite throughly how easily distracted we get with age, I would like to be able to DEMAND that no older person or anyone who is easily distracted use half charge loads.  But I can't so I only recommend strongly against it.

  Schutzen shooters for years have obtained their best accuracy with less than half charges of 296.  However, so many rifles have been blown up with it, and shooters try to blame it on the manufacturer, that Winchester recommends against using it with light loads in rifle cases.  Yet Hodgen makes no such recommendation with their 296 powder which they call H110.    Everybody beside the shooter knows a double charge which he doesn't want to take responsibility for was his problem.  Keep in mind that no attorney will take a case for damage caused from reloaded ammo.  It will be thrown out of court if they did.  No one has ever won such a case, to my knowledge.

[JDNC]

Veral,

Puff-Lon is 100% natural cellulose(about 1/10th the weight of water, 1cc = about
15gr. of gunpowder in volume).  I have been using it for several years and have never quite understood why it doesn't show up on the CB forums.  I just thought it might be the cost (500cc is about $26) or something.  I too would not recommend filling half a bottle neck case with the stuff.  I have use it in my 45/70 pp load over a heavy chg of H4895 and then a OP wad.  I fill the remainder of the case (over the powder) with Puff-Lon to the top of the case, place the OP wad then seat the bullet.  I love the stuff!  It is so light, I have to watch how I breath or it will be all over my bench.  If you would like I'll send you a sample.  When I first contacted the company they sent me a free sample to try, you can't beat that.

http://www.pufflon.com/index.html

[Veral]

  Sounds like a good product if you are filling the case, but I would insist on a measurable compressive force, not just fluf holding the powder back.  If the company selling it recommends it for that purpose, I can't fault it, except for what appears to be a very high price.  Granulated shot buffer is quite inexpensive per charge, and so effective that I can't recommend anything else as long as it's redily available.  Precision Reloaders is where I bought my last batch.
  I appreciate the offer, but don't send me any, as the feds don't allow me to reload any more.