.356 Winchester

[jcn59]

I've got a Winchester model 94 in .356.    It seems like it would be a good deer rifle but I never hear much talk about these.  They're not particularly expensive as they seem to sell in the $400+ range, but not many seem to have them.

I've loaded some 225 grain bullets & it seems to shoot well enough.  Am thinking about using it for close-range doghair elk.  Any of you shoot an elk with the .356?  I've been using a .35 Whelen with good results, but it's a big, heavy rifle.  I think the Winchester would be easier to use if it has good clobbering characterists.

The Model 94 looks to be a bit more compact & lighter than the .35 Rem Marlin 336.

[JD]

 I see the occasional BigBore here in Colorado for $6-650ish. the 356 is just a rimless 358 for all intents and purposes. As the 308 is the little brother of the '06; so goes the 356/358 to the Whelen. The 356 cases are generally quite thicker/stronger so loading data is different from the 358. Ballistic twins until you get up to 250gr bullets.
 I prefer my Savage 99 for the ability to use the Sierra 225 BTSP and rem 200gr PSP core-lokts.
You will be limited to round nose and the Speer 180 & 220 flat points but thats not a bad thing.

JD

[Sweetwater]

Most of the 356's on the auctions that I have seen are over $600 and then some. Most sell for near $900. Bought mine a long time ago for less than half that - NIB. It's still a virgin, as I love my Persian Carbine too much that I don't use any of the other dozen or so elk capable rifles in my cabinets.

Think I've got a good barrel as factory Winchester 200gr's avg 2286fps on the Chrony. Handloads within the limits of the manuals will easily exceed 2400fps with Rem 200gr Coreloks, as will 220gr Speers hovering near 2450fps. Factory 250's run 2035fps and a mid-load Hornady 250gr RN from the book runs 2050fps. ES in low teens and SD in single digits. Working now on cast loads. 180gr - 228gr at 2100fps to  2460fps, so far.

My BB94 is finicky about bullet shape and oal for feeding purposes. I ran a batch of LBT bullets generously shared with me that didn't feed real well. If I worked the action real quicky, some sizes would go, others wouldn't. They were pistol bullets and a bit proud in the throat area. My next batch is with some Saeco bullets also generously shared with me and they do feed nicely. I'm also playing with non-356 brass. It likes 358 brass and will digest 8x57 brass properly trimmed and sized. I've got some lake city mil-surp 30-06 brass that I was sizing to 35whelen. The ones that split the necks, I trimmed to 356 length and sized accordingly. They seem to feed ok, but I have yet to fire any. Endless projects and a blast.

The BB94 does seem fitter than the Marlins, slim and trim. It's like a compact 348W, so why wouldn't it work the same on Elk? I believe it would. I have read that if you cross-sectioned the brass, you would find 358 and 356 identical, except for the rim. I don't think in performance that you are giving up anything to any other rifle at hunting ranges. My testing shows it should be able to keep up with my Persian Carbine 8x57 quite easily, and I know what that does to Elk at 300 yards. Never shot one further, so can't say what happens beyond that on elk; antelope at 350yards are in the freezer. DRT.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[jcn59]

So do I understand that a standard rimless .358 case might work in the model 94 .356?  I haven't had any ammo supply problems as I load my own & have about 60 cases plus a box and a half factory ammo.  I haven't tried to load anything hot yet.

Mine is a pre-safety 94AE XTR with a stupid looking monte carlo hump on the butt stock and no checkering.   A hunting gun, not pristine, but nice.  First used one I ever saw so I bought it immediately.....a couple years ago.  I've got old eyes so I put a 4X Leupold on it.  Looks goofy with that long scope on it.  Maybe I'll put a scout scope on it.   Or one of those short Bushnell TRS-25 red dots maybe.

[Graybeard]

So do I understand that a standard rimless .358 case might work in the model 94 .356?

Absolutely NOT. The lever gun cannot grab and eject the rimless round and might or might not feed it and hold it properly for firing.

I also am not aware of any 225 grain bullets with noses blunt enough for use in a tube fed magazine. What bullet are you using? The Speer 220 is probably the best suited to this round.

I keep toying with the idea of having SSK Industries turn my Marlin .35 Remington into a .356 Win. for me. I have more than a life time supply of once fired brass to feed it if I should ever decide to do so. But then I have more than a life time supply of .35 Remington brass as well. I really shouldn't had it done when I had two of the Marlin .35s, now that I have only one I hate to turn it into the .356 and not have a .35 Rem.

[jcn59]

220 grain flat nose.  Bought hundreds a while back, came in plastic bag.  Been doing the reloading bit over 40 years.   So far, so good.  Still learning.  I load for .35 Rem., .35 Whelen, .356, & .358, as well as .38 Special, .357, & .357 Max.....and others.

It sounds like Sweetwater is using rimless brass in his rifle, that's why I asked.


Case capacities of the .35 Rem., .356, & .358 are similar.   Primary ballistic differences in these cartridges arises from operating pressure.  Considering that a 336 Marlin was chambered for the .356, then why couldn't it shoot the .35 Rem at the same pressure?  I wouldn't just assume that the .35 could be safely loaded hotter, I would ask one of the gunsmiths who specializes in 336 Marlin what he thinks.

.356 case capacity 2.91 cc  Max. loads listed about 46,300 cup
.35 Rem. capacity 2.85 cc  Max. loads listed about  35,000 CUP
.358 case capacity 3.07 cc Max. loads listed about 52,000 CUP
per "Modern Reloading", Second Edition

[SHOOTALL]

I had one , heavy for a 94 . Factory ammo was high . Still have dies , brass and bullets .

[jcn59]

Ever shoot anything with it?

[jager]

I've got the "post-safety" model. H4198 seems to work well with the 180gr, and either H322 or Win748 for the 220gr (both Speer "flat nose" bullets). I've not tried the 250gr bullets, but would think a 250RN Hornady might work at about 2150fps. I believe the 220gr to be the "optimum" bullet for this cartridge. I've been surprised how pleasant the rifle is to shoot and how accurate it can be!

[SHOOTALL]

A target on a dead tree . Tree was about 12 inches thick clean pass thru. I had a 307 killed deer with it . They were a lot of weight for a 94 . But fun to shoot !

[Sweetwater]

You need to be careful with the 250Hdy RN. The manual lists OAL at 2.775" That will not cycle through any Winchester 94 that I know of. That had to be cranked down to OAL at 2.55" or whatever is needed to cycle properly in that area. It shoots like hot cakes and will run with the Winchester Factory 250's without breathing too hard. Getting back to that shortened OAL. Start at the beginning load and work slowly. You are working at less case capacity than what would be afforded with OAL of 2.775" - it does make a difference.

Rimless cases: I do not need to do this as I have 8 boxes of brass fired from factory Winchester 200gr and 5 boxes of factory fresh Winchester 250gr (purchased before the price skyrocketed). I simply want to.
I have played with this .356 a bunch, though have not hunted with it yet. What got me started was a copy of Legacy of The Lever Gun Winter 2000. Quoting Al Miller on page 65 and continued on page 108, "Whether all angle eject .356s are like the one in my rack, I can't say, but mine feeds, fires, extracts and ejects .358 cases as though their heads were stamped .356. Of course, the action  won't accept .358 factory loads because of the action's length limitations. They won't fit."    SO, I had to see for myself. As explained, I actually started with a shortened 8x57mm case, properly sized to .356 and loaded with a starting load. It fed, fired, extracted and ejected properly. In the magazine, with proper .356 cases mixed with non-.356 brass properly trimmed and sized, the rifle does not react like the brass rim is any different. I expect hot loads might be a problem, but I'm not there. I am presently working (playing) with 30-06 Lake City brass, as explained previously, that I sized to 35Whelen. The ones which split necks, I trimmed and sized to fit the .356W. I haven't fired any yet, but they feed, extract and eject according to Hoyle - so what do I know...

Any of these .356 loads set up for hunting will surely kill a tree target - Aspen will lose their whole back side with very few shots taken. I do not find the recoil bothersome at all - very surprised as the rifle is so light.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Lloyd Smale]

I love mine. Its been professionaly chopped to 16 1/2 and knocks the cork out of deer and bear.