22 rifle vs pistol

[SHOOTALL]

A 10 inch Ruger MK2 would be a nice second gun , even more so if it was "quiet"

[teamnelson]

In an EOTWAWKI scenario, who will be checking tax stamps for your suppressed SBR?

- I will be sick, injured, malnourished or just plain tired within days or weeks of leaving my house - pack light.
- I don't want to carry one thing more than I have to, like a parts kit and tools, or cr123a batteries.
- I don't want a weapon that requires both limbs, or a limb and a support, to operate.
- My ammo may be damaged, lost, or expended. I may need to use yours. Yours may not properaly operate my platform - I've used a lot of different types of .22 ammo in my 10/22s and other semis. Some don't reliably cycle the action. Murphy would ensure that that would be the ammo I found when I was out.
- I don't want to have to implement a clearing procedure in a firefight.
- I don't want to look armed all the time.
- I want my sick, injured, malnourished and tired wife and/or kids to be able to pick up my weapon when I'm gone and there's are no longer serviceable.

[Duane]

Nylon 66 junk how come its not produced today like its competitors like the marlin 60 or the 10/22 they didnt continue to sell well .Thats why like the marlin who is stil one of if not the best seller around in .22 auto The nylon 66 was not reliable of course neither is the marlin without cleaning unlike the 10/22 who is less finiky (spelling ?) Yea you can pass truck on them but hey I dont plan on doing that with a survival weapon.

[mcwoodduck]

In an EOTWAWKI scenario, who will be checking tax stamps for your suppressed SBR?

- I will be sick, injured, malnourished or just plain tired within days or weeks of leaving my house - pack light.
- I don't want to carry one thing more than I have to, like a parts kit and tools, or cr123a batteries.
- I don't want a weapon that requires both limbs, or a limb and a support, to operate.
- My ammo may be damaged, lost, or expended. I may need to use yours. Yours may not properaly operate my platform - I've used a lot of different types of .22 ammo in my 10/22s and other semis. Some don't reliably cycle the action. Murphy would ensure that that would be the ammo I found when I was out.
- I don't want to have to implement a clearing procedure in a firefight.
- I don't want to look armed all the time.
- I want my sick, injured, malnourished and tired wife and/or kids to be able to pick up my weapon when I'm gone and there's are no longer serviceable.

OK in that case you want a handgun.
Now I am picturing my Buckmark the long target / Varmint model with a scout scope mounted on it.  It has target Iron sights incase something happens to the scope.
When I would shoot it with the forearm of the handgun over my left elbow and my left hand holding my right elbow I could shoot it as well as any rifle.
With the scout scope you can get your head back a ways and not have the slide hit you, as well as being able to shoot it one handed with a bent elbow.
But we are back to the gunk in an auto, small parts and springs, mags, and ammo being problemmatic with some autos not liking different bullet designs.
Not sure where you are going to walking from and to but there are all kinds of birds, small game, Medium game, house hold pets, and big game that will be out there to eat as you move and find a hole to rest in and cook something you gathered during your walk.
Another choice could be one of the bull pup stocks on a 10/22 as it will allow you to use it single handed easily. 

[Dances with Geoducks]

Id go with the .22 rifle, our Model 60 Marlin holds 13 rounds.
I can shoot at 1600fps, or subsonic and a noise can over the end of the barrel and its very quiet.
You can also carry a lot of ammo in your back pack. 

[Hooker]

Here are the parameters for this exercise:
- the caliber is .22.
- you will be on foot with only what you can carry for the rest of your life.
- this is an EOTWAWKI scenario.
- your mission is to live, not overthrow a dictatorship or fend off zombie hordes.

If you could only have either a rifle or a pistol, which would you take? why? Identify pros & cons. Is there a particular weapon you'd choose?

H&R Sportster 
Pros                                                                                Cons
It is a simple design.                                                           Ammo not reloadable.
Very easy to maintain.                                                       
A man with minimal skills could make parts if needed.

Pat

[Couger]

In an EOTWAWKI scenario, who will be checking tax stamps for your suppressed SBR?[/[/b]quote]

Ding!  Ding!  Ding!  

If the whole damm world has gone to poop,  who doesn't think the F-troop boys won't also be up to their necks in alligators?

I mentioned the "stocked" Challenger CHARGER  as I think that would afford MAXIMUM versatility, with high-cap mags.  What I didn't mention before is that I'd also have with me several kinds of ammo from CB longs to std vel to Velocitors.


Quote from: TeamNelson  "Here are the parameters for this exercise:
 
                     - the caliber is .22.
                     - you will be on foot with only what you can carry for the rest of your life.
                     - this is an EOTWAWKI scenario.
                     - your mission is to live, not overthrow a dictatorship or fend off zombie hordes

                            Dang.  Zombie hordes are the only thing I was really worried about!  

If you could only have either a rifle or a pistol, which would you take? why? Identify pros & cons. Is there a particular weapon you'd choose?

H&R Sportster  
Pros                                                                                Cons
It is a simple design.                                                           Ammo not reloadable.
Very easy to maintain.                                                        
A man with minimal skills could make parts if needed.

Pat



Before I'd go with a "Sportster" I'd take a Handi-Rifle and my Versa-Pack .22LR bbl that fits my SB2 frame.

I might take a .223 or .30/06 or 12ga barrel on the Handi-rifle, but I guess I'm cheating on TN's exercise.  

[pab1]

I like my 5.5" Single Six, but in a survival situation I would rather have my Contender with a 10" .22lr barrel. Its very accurate and gives higher velocities than the revolver which would aid in taking larger game animals.

[Victor3]

A 10 inch Ruger MK2 would be a nice second gun , even more so if it was "quiet"

 One of my all-time favorite shooters and probably a good compromise between rifle/handgun. I can hit a coffee can all day long at 100 yds with it. Little on the heavy side though...



 Couple more options, but I might have to bring a gunsmith along to keep the 41 working long term...

[Victor3]

- My ammo may be damaged, lost, or expended. I may need to use yours. Yours may not properaly operate my platform - I've used a lot of different types of .22 ammo in my 10/22s and other semis. Some don't reliably cycle the action. Murphy would ensure that that would be the ammo I found when I was out.
- I want my sick, injured, malnourished and tired wife and/or kids to be able to pick up my weapon when I'm gone and there's are no longer serviceable.

 I hear what you're saying about revolvers and their ability to use just about any ol' ammo, but I'd still contend that the Ruger auto is very reliable with most any LR ammo. If you have to scrounge, you'll probably find standard ammo that will cycle the action. That's what most people buy. It would still fire as a single-shot with any that didn't.

 Also, unlike all revolvers, the MKII has most of its moving parts enclosed within the receiver and grip frame where they're not nearly as exposed to dirt and damage if dropped. If you gunk up a revolver's works somehow, it's probably going to require tools and some loose parts laying around to clean well. Field stripping a MKII, you have 4 simple, exposed and self-contained assemblies (no loose parts) that dunking in water should flush out well in most cases, probably resulting in a working gun after you oil and put it back together. No revolver can compare in ease of maintenance in rough conditions IMO.

 If you're going to equip your family with guns also, MKII's have more interchangeable parts and assemblies than any revolver.

[mannyrock]

   I agree with the concept of a Mark II over a .22 revolver.  Again I must ask, who is going to time and tune that revolver after a few years?  And regardless of how strong the frame or cylinder, revolver clockwork is delicate.

[teamnelson]

Been shooting revolvers for decades and in competition. Never needed tuning or timing. All my semis have needed at least one part replaced with less use. None of my revolvers have stovepiped. None have failed to cycle because of unreliable ammo. FTF in a match? Pull the trigger again. FTF with a semi? Stop, drop, rack, clear, replace, rack, pull trigger. Hunting that's acceptable, but not in SD. And Ive replaced numerous 10/22 magazines ... never replaced a cylinder. I've got an 1897 .38 S&W topbreak revolver that has been daily carried by two generations, only God knows how many rounds through it. Still tight and works everytime I pull the trigger. I've had 4 10/22s and all have stovepiped at one time or another on factory lr ammo.

I'm not saying semis are bad; they have known support requirements I choose not to make a necessary part of my survival.

[mannyrock]

Team,

   Good info.

Mannyrock

[Couger]

Team,

   Good info.

Mannyrock

Indeed!    Good thread.

I'm always amazed when perusing "preparedness" or survival sites how many adult give short shrift to .22 firearms and ammo. 

Its quite obvious most contributors to this thread have put a lot of thought into .22's!! And are DETERMINED to survive a crisis.   

[teamnelson]

thread has me thinking ... anybody have some links to real world torture tests on guns? I know we all have anecdotal evidence to justify our preferences, and familiarity breeds bias. However, for guns we're not personally familiar with, is there a good site or resource that dropped a MKII in sand or a 617 into mud?

To me this plays into holster selection for handguns or slings for rifles. If I'm scrambling for my life through rough terrain ... gravel, dense brush, swamp, the candy aisle at walmart  ... is there a better holster/sling choice to minimize exposing the action to harmful elements? For example, I have a bit of experience with the one point slings on the M4 in a sandy environment. The one points are designed for easy of carry, rapid deployment, typically in a standing or walking position. Its a reall pain in the butt (literally) running slung while carrying an anti-tank weapon, or other option. The weapon gets beat up bad climbing walls: have to replace handguards, and dummy cord pec15s and acogs (rail mounted systems). I know too that closed toe holsters that full cover the handgun keep the sand, mud, and moisture out as well ... early issue holsters had a full cover flap for just that reason.

For example, a folding stock 10/22 is real handy on a one point sling. But its highly visible, and if I had to drop prone on a hard surface with little warning I can see my extended mag or optics suffering. I might go flush mounted mag and fiber sights just for that reason. And for a pistol, I like the plastic paddles for rapid deployment, but lots of folks in combat have discovered the limits of the button retention system, and have had to dummy cord their Berettas for fear of losing them. When you're surrounded by a platoon of friends, you can search around for your handgun ... not when you're alone. For that reason, I may go a full body uncle mikes with closed toe and thumbstrap to keep elements out.

[mannyrock]

   As far as handguns, I have never seen a torture test for those in .22 caliber.  However, about 10 years ago I saw a torture test in G&A, for external abuse, between a 1911 in .45 auto, and a S&W Model 19 in .357 (fired double action).

    They dropped both guns, loaded, into water, then into dirt, then mud, then sand, to simulate what might happen if a lawman were to drop his weapon during a scuffle, and then pick it up and fire.  After being dropped into each medium, each piece was picked up and  "tapped" vigorously twice against the heel of the opposing hand.  Then the shooter attempted to fire them.

    The results were:

     Water test:   No real difference between the guns.  Both fired immediately thereafter.

     Loose dirt test.  No real difference between the guns.  Both fired immediately thereafter.

     Mud test:  The 1911 fired instantly.  The revolver had to be hand cleaned with a damp rag for about 10 minutes before it would fire.

     Sand test:  The 1911 fired instantly.  The revolver was out of action for good.  A gunsmith had to disassemble the whole thing, clean it, and reassemble it before it would fire again.

[Couger]

thread has me thinking ... anybody have some links to real world torture tests on guns? I know we all have anecdotal evidence to justify our preferences, and familiarity breeds bias. However, for guns we're not personally familiar with, is there a good site or resource that dropped a MKII in sand or a 617 into mud?

Interesting thoughts and concepts ......  I'm not aware of a specific site or source for what you're asking TN.

I've always thought many .22rimfire applications would require a certain amount of finesse - for delicate work, altho some designs like the M17, M18, M34 S&W's and their respective wheelgun "families" are tougher than other designs. (vs. the M41, 422. 622 S&W's for example).

The Buckmark does not strike me as "tough" as a Ruger Mk1 or 2 or 3, or even a Hi Standard or Colt Woodsman.  Altho a the old USAF (original) designs look tougher and more durable than subsequent designs.

Some folks have bantered back and forth about the Rem Nylon-66, and while that design is fugly it durable as hell!  Altho I sold the one copy I had because I wanted more than 13 rounds - loaded through the stock (another example!).

As for holsters and sling applications, I'd guess one would have to derive "experience" from what works well (or badly) from other real experiences and firearm applications.

Of course real input from as many [good] sources has got to be a good thing too, methinks.

I have noticed i believe, some hesitation from you about the M10/22.  I've noticed some problems with old and worn M10/22's regarding their magazines, but also have seen a couple such rifles "repaired" to become quite reliable again.  Maybe things would have to be examinewd on a case by case basis, but along with any durability or torture-tests I'd also be interested on how easy or difficult it might be to "service" survival .22's.

Hopefully others have many ideas they'll share too.   

[Couger]

What about starting other threads about "What would be the best .22 WHEELGUN in a SHTF scenatio?"  or ".22 autogun?"

Listing specific models and their attributes, I would be curious what others would want regarding specific features they wanted in a wheelgun, or rifle or singlshot .22 (barrel length, type of sights, required mag capacity, etc., etc., etc.).

Models and ammo choices I've made fit many scenarios I've envisioned or tried to envision regarding SHTF scenarios.  No doubt I have NOT thought of them all!  Of course I'm always learning.   

[teamnelson]

Mannyrock, Have to confess I wouldn't have expected those results. Given the number of moving parts, and the nature of failures at single-stack PPC competitions I've been too, I am shocked. I baby my 1911 compared to my wheelies. I definitely would be hesitant to project those results on a beretta 92s for example; they are very finicky when they're not clean & dry.

Couger, as I've read through the survival discussions here and elsewhere, the 10/22 is touted as the king of the hill. And its one right handy gun, that's no lie - its why I've had 4. And if its all I had, I wouldn't feel ill equipped at all. I think I can do better, though, that's all.

The closest comparison I've had to in-field service is in combat; I was an armorer awhile back, and recently did 2 tours in Iraq. Maintenance and repair of weapons in combat requires expertise and a logistics tail that I won't have in my survival bag. But the type of torture test those are put through I would say roughly compares to a survival scenario. Trying climbing a 6 foot wall with everything you own on your person, weapon slung, under fire - its neither quiet, nor elegant, and that's in place where you're supposed to be armed. Next time you see a picture from the front, zoom in on the weapon and count the number of zip ties employed to keep accessories on the rails. Notice how the buttstock and forearm pieces seldom match from frequent replacement. I honestly don't know if my 10/22 could put up with that type of abuse, never mind the plastic hi-cap magazines, wal-mart optics, and plastic stock.

[mannyrock]

  Hard to tell how scientific the 1911 vs. Model 19 test was.  I do recall that when they dropped the guns in the mud, and then later in the sand, they did not bury them in it, or grind them into it.  They just dropped them from about 4 feet, to simulate a dropped weapon, and then picked them up.

Mannyrock

[Couger]

...... Next time you see a picture from the front, zoom in on the weapon and count the number of zip ties employed to keep accessories on the rails. Notice how the buttstock and forearm pieces seldom match from frequent replacement. I honestly don't know if my 10/22 could put up with that type of abuse, never mind the plastic hi-cap magazines, wal-mart optics, and plastic stock.

[/b]

I'm not arguing with you TN.  And I think you well illustrated what I said in an earlier post that many .22's would be needed to be "finessed" in some of the roles I'd use one.  Some of my mag purchases take attrition into account.

Whether the M10//22 is "king" is a matter of opinion I'm sure, but it certainly is one of the easiest and most convenient arms to accessorize besides the AR15 family and even the M870! (to a degree)

Going through several .22 models (in my mind), I'd wager the M39A, Nylon66, and even the BL22 would all be more durable than the M60/M70 family, M9422, and even several bolt .22's.  I said "wager,"  as it appears like with tools and other sporting equipment, some guns look rugged and durable and others do not.

Some models like the singleshot NEF's and the USAF M6 have minimum parts to go bad, but even the AR7 that started life as a military survival piece is not a gun I'd want in a hard fire fight (even if a .22 had a role in a skirmish).  I've never been in combat, but many of the optics and accessories I've noticed (that you alluded to TN) the troops using don't look too indestructable!

Also going back to one of your original criteria (and joking aside), I'd try like heck to never have to rely on a .22 for a combat piece, and limit the .22's role  to foraging or hunting or practicing,  altho I could see (in a pinch) using a .22 for last-ditch defensive duties.

I have Velocitor ammo for two reasons - besides being a Gold Dot-like manufactured boolit, its the most powerful .22LR round going, certainly for its full 40grain weight.  Plus mimicking the Gold Dot those 40grn slugs will penetrate and mushroom reliably.  The Velocitor I believe would be a top choice for personal defense if necessary (big "if"), and for slaying critters than 30-40lbs, altho a .22WMR would be better and a CF cart would be better than that!

Choosing a wheelgun in .22, the Ruger Single Six designs are NOT always super accurate with both LR's and Magnums, but they ARE SOLIDly designed and made.  S&W K-frame 22's are also top choices as well in a wheelgun.  I have long thought a K-frame M17 or similar in .22LR would be a must have gun (as a training and practice piece)  if I was into handguns more than I am rifles and shotguns!

Too bad the "buntline designs" aren't more convenient to use with their longish barrels.

Still if I couldn't pick a M10/22 or Challenger  CHARGER   I'd still pick an 8 or 10inch Ruger SA pistol before a wheelgun, myself.  I want the quick reload capabilty even if limited to 10shots.  But thats me!  ADDED:  I also mentioned Tactical Solutions who's located in boise, ID.  They make make precision-made aluminum upper assemblies for the Ruger semi-auto .22 pistols as well as the Browning Buckmak's.  Combining a Tac-Solutions.com upper with a Ruger M22/45 makes a VERY lightweight .22LR pistol with bbls from 3 to 8 inches, with or without an optic or red dot.

Along with your earlier question suggestion Team Nelson, about finding a source that evaluates how well a .22 survives a torture test,  like Boston T. Party does in his "Big Green Gun Book" and evaluates a couple dozen battle carbines and rifles (and military cartridges) used since before and during World Wwar One until present - yr2010, I wish someone had compiled a similar book about all shotguns, all handguns and all rimfires!

BTW;  Those of you who are M10/22 fans ..... The firm Tactical Innovations out of Bonners Ferry, ID ...... makes solid ALUMINUM magazines for the M10/22.  They're pricey but VERY SOLID!

[kmittleman]

I like the idea of carrying my scoped Buckmark however, I know that I'm way more accurate w/ my 10/22. If I could choose anything, it would be like a CZ .22 bolt action w/ iron sights and a scope. Or maybe a Marlin or Savage in stainless w/ a synthetic stock. The advantages of the bolt would be:            

1. Easier to maintain, fewer parts
2. Probably more accurate than an auto
3. Easier to shoot other types of .22 rounds ( LR, L, Short, CB, etc )

I agree with the concealment issue though. If that would be an issue, than maybe a Marlin Papoose breakdown model.

-Kevin

[The Hermit]

Colt Frontier Scout in .22 LR purchased new in the 60's for $49.
Second choice is Ruger .22/45 Target model.  Colt goes in the packbasket.  Ruger on the hip.
Can I carry Two?       


    The Hermit

[45-70.gov]

ruger  single 6....probly

this  was the stupidest gun  i ever  saw
now  me and  my son  have  one

it  is amazing  how  accurate
and  with  the 50 round clips  has the throughly spray and pray  option

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4IK8EV6g3Q
a few more trips to the range  and  i may  swap  the  single 6
 [actually will keep both   the  44 mag  is for any one says  otherwise]

no  others  favoring  the charger

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7PF8tRZ6j8

[teamnelson]

45-70, i bet someone makes an archangel drop in pistol stock for it. It's more like a handy carbine.

[Couger]

Couger, you're right!  Maybe a T/C Contender is the way!  If you start with a pistol frame and a .22 10" barrel, and then get the carbine stocks and a 16" or even 21" carbine barrel, you could have a great setup.  The black plastic stock set weighs less than the wood one, so you could have a very lightweight setup.

Don't know if you're interested WoodChukHntr, but on another site one fellow who lives in Florida has posted MANY TIMES about how he and his 21inch T/C Contender with CB Shorts has put a significant dent in the FL wild pig population!  Usually shoots them inside of 30ft and only where the spine meets the skull.

He includes pictures in his posts and his reports seem quite consistent in his claims.

PM me if you want details on the other board and finding his posts.   

As for a T/C firearm I'd try to have a rimfire barrel fitted to an Encore rather than a Contender.  I did get lucky in finding a Versa-Pack .22LR barrel that snaps right onto my Hand-Rifle frame, but thats still a rifle and not a HG.  Whats funky about it is that the Versa-Pack barrel is stubbed and canted [downward] just enough so the centerfire pin strikes the rimfire rim.  But I agree a Contender makes a great rig with smaller cartridges.  (The Encore can handle a .30/06!!).

[Victor3]

 I don't have any real world experience using either revolvers or autos that have been dropped in mud/sand/dirt/snow. On the rare occasions it's happened, I've stopped shooting for fear of damage to the gun (or to me, from a plugged bore). Using both types in blowing sand/dust, neither has failed on me.

 My reading on the subject over the years has generally indicated similar to what mannyrock posted. I once read that during the Civil War, if a Colt revolver was dropped, it often had to be discarded due to damage or dirt.

 I'm no expert, but I have a background in mechanical design, failure analysis, and I play with guns a lot.

 Some points on revolvers that make them subject to a failure that would be difficult to remedy in the field:

 1. Two precisely fitted and exposed pawls and mating features on cylinder/frame that regulate position/lockup of chambers in relation to bore/firing pin.

 2. Delicate internal mechanism that's difficult to access for repair/cleaning.

 3. Cylinder fixed by pin and crane; prone to damage if dropped with cylinder open.

 4. Precise gap at front/rear of cylinder.

 5. 'Open frame' design allowing debris easy access to 1 - 4 above.

 6. Relatively low strength at frontal area of frame to resist distortion via bending/torquing (like if you fall or sit on it).

 In adddition to the above, you can have problems reloading. More than once I've not been looking at the gun when I dump a cylinder and have one shell stay in and get the rim under the ejector as I try to use a speedloader. That's a time consuming stoppage.

 As far as Ruger autos go, I admit being biased toward them. I'm not alone though; they've been adopted by the US, Israeli and other military/govt orgs for covert operations pretty much since they were invented and are still used for the same kinda things today...

[jlwilliams]

  Some great stuff here.  I'm really enjoying this one.

  Give the OP parameters, and it's a really specific set of parameters.  I'd have to say a pistol.  The portability/concealabilty of a handgun is unchallenged.  Given the TEOTWAWKI flavor of the discussion, I'd add a few features that would require tax stamps under normal conditions.  A silencer would go a long way to avioiding confrontation.  Keeping your shots from drawing attention seems wise.  I'd also make up some sort of a removable shoulder stock.  Maybe a bent wire item or the like; possably incorporate it into the carry system like the old Broomhandle Mausers did.  That way I would have the option of using it as a rifle.  With the possabilities suggested in the OP, I can see the scenarion of being tired, malnourished and hurt and needing all the stability I could get to make a shot at something to eat.  A shoulderable weapon is just easier to shoot well than a pistol.

  All that said, I'm thinking that a Ruger MK semi auto pistol would fit the bill.  They are popular as suppressor hosts for a lot of reasons.  Adding a detachable stock or a folder would take some inginuity, but it's been done and could be done again.

[Almtnman]

This has been an informative topic and I have also enjoyed it. To make things a little quieter shooting you might want to do what I did and that is to buy up some boxes of Aquilla no powder loads for your pistol. They are very effective at short range and quieter than a regular 22 round. I have even shot them in one of my 22 rifles, the one with 20 inch barrel and it does good in there and sounds like a pellet gun in it. I tried a round in a longer barrel and the bullet didn't make it to the end of the barrel, so I had to push it out with a brass rod. One thing about those torture tests that has me puzzled is, I have been carrying a handgun now for over 50 years and haven't had a problem with any of my revolvers, but have had a few stove pipe loads in my semi-automatic pistols. As a reloader, I found that the semi-automatic wants to have the bullets set at a certain distance in the brass to prevent stove piping and I worked all that out with mine. One thing taught me early on is keep your guns clean, if they get dirty, sand, mud or lint or built up oil or gunk on them, clean them. That has worked for me in all the time I have been carrying a pistol and I highly suspect that it will continue to work until I kick the bucket.

Anyway, as I have already stated, my old single six with extra 22 mag cylinder will be my best bet. I killed more game with it than I can keep track of. The largest being a couple of beavers that were approx. 35 lbs or more in size, a lot of squirrels, rabbits plus numerous other game animals. One thing to take into consideration if you aren't a good pistol shot is use a shooting rest with it. Just prop the barrel into the rest, take time to aim and you will be surprised at how much farther you can shoot with it if you concentrate on the sights, target and breathing. 

[jlwilliams]

  Those 22lr/22mag convertable revolvers are certainly versatile little items.