Author Topic: .30-06 OAL question (Read 1623 times)

KeepTryin · « **on:** February 08, 2010, 04:14:03 PM »

Pic here is of a .30-06 round (my first) loaded with 44 grains of Varget which is a starting load from Lee's 2nd edition, page 451. This from the 180 grain jacketed bullet table. CCI 200 primer. The bullet I used is a Hornady #3072, 180 grain BTSP Interlock, .308 caliber. Lee lists the minimum overall length as 3.300". As you can see I'm a tick over at 3.304. The end of the neck brass isn't anywhere near the bullets' cannelure groove. I then took a Remmie CorLockt out and put a calipers to that and you can see it's 3.185 and the cannelure groove is where the end of the brass/crimp is. I realize that the bullet is different and I'm sure the powder is different in the factory round. The difference seemed to be enough that I thought I should ask... as I understand bullets too close to the rifling cause pressure issues, etc. This is for a 700 ADL.

I do have a Lee Factory Crimp Die for this and am perhaps letting the groove/cannelure thing throw me. I have a Sierra bullet chart and it looks like many of their bullets don't even have them.

Have I done something wrong or am misunderstanding something here? Is this unsafe? Noob alert!

Thanks!

sk330lc · « **Reply #1 on:** February 08, 2010, 04:38:41 PM »

3.245" Is the C.O.L. Listed in the Hornady 7th edition Book.

You should think about getting the books For the Bullets your Loading.. Great Info and for what your loading..

Dances with Geoducks · « **Reply #2 on:** February 08, 2010, 07:40:09 PM »

Get rid of that crimp now, change your powder to H-4350

and buy or borrow a chamber length gauge.

Measure your OAL, back off .005, and makem that long.

Ive measured a pile of 06s lately and they all are around 3.30. (Thats why I short chambered my bolt gun to 2.40)

If your a tad off the groove dont worry about it.

All factory loads are made to SAMMI standards which are awful short even for my rifle.

1sourdough · « **Reply #3 on:** February 08, 2010, 08:23:42 PM »

With a case like the 30-06 you can adjust the COL up & down some without any high pressure worries. That's a fine all around bullet. I use H-4350 with it & set it to the 3.25(+/-, no date here) range COL. A few years back I loaded some 30-06 for a relative to use in his Savage 110 30-06. I went with the book COL of 3.30. It ended up right at the length where it would contact the rifling. He found out when he unloaded after shooting a deer, pulled the bullet out. I shortly after was able to measure his chamber. He still asks for reloads, now they are just a tad shorter. So the proper thing to do is measure the chamber to see where you have to be. I don't add any crimp & don't worry about where the 'crimp groove' ends up when I set COL.

drdougrx · « **Reply #4 on:** February 09, 2010, 03:57:37 AM »

OAL is always fun to play with. My Rem 700 KS Mtn Rifle is an ADL and is in 06. I load 180gr bullets at 3.4" and there's still plenty of room in the blind magazine and in the chamber and there's no problems. I'm currently looking for the sweet spot for OAL.

KeepTryin · « **Reply #5 on:** February 09, 2010, 05:08:24 AM »

So, COL=Cartridge Overall Length/same as OAL=Overall Length? Just clarifying...

Geoduck, are you saying don't crimp these rounds in any way? Not needed because it's a bolt action? I'm also going to load for my .30-30 (different bullets obviously) and I imagine I'm going to have to crimp those because of the tubular magazine and all...

Thanks to all for the insight! I'll have to get a Hornady manual I suppose, gee what a way to save money, this reloading...

Dances with Geoducks · « **Reply #6 on:** February 09, 2010, 05:14:52 AM »

COL,. OAL, COAL, all the same thing. Depends on what school of reloading (and decade) you come from.

You never have to crimp a bolt or semi 30-06 round. I run 110gr Barnes at 3500fps, and dont crimp those.

Heck I only crimp cast rounds for the lever guns. Using FTX Hornady's Evo round, I dont crimp those either.

Yes the tubular mag is the reason for crimping, and a little more FPS.

The set up cost for reloading is a tad steep in the beginning, but it will pay off in the long run.

huntducks · « **Reply #7 on:** February 09, 2010, 07:50:21 AM »

Here is what you need.

There are several ways of measuring OAL without a gage ( I did it for years without) this is simple and fast.

Remember to buy the 06 case that threads on to the gage.

If your doing a 30-30 you might want the angle one.

I always start at .040 off the lans and very seldom go under .015

Dances with Geoducks · « **Reply #8 on:** February 09, 2010, 01:34:54 PM »

The bent on is for semi-autos, and does not fit in every bolt gun.

Everyone of my bolt guns is at .005 off the lands. Gas guns at .015
Single shot at .000

KeepTryin · « **Reply #9 on:** February 09, 2010, 04:26:57 PM »

Bear with me guys, I'm having a little trouble dechipering the last two posts... huntducks states there's a way to measure chamber OAL (I think) without a gauge and then he states you want to get the '06 case that threads on the gauge... and then mentions 'the angled one' and Geoducks statement of the 'bent is on' for semi-autos... Then Geoducks goes on to mention that bolts like to be .005 off the lands, I get that part... but the rest of what I'm reading here is confusing me sorry, don't mean to be dense but I'm kind of not getting something here. I do remember reading in an older Dixie Gun Works catalog about melting sulphur (sounds a bit nuts on the face of it) to get a chamber measurement, is that the sort of thing we're talking about here? Pardon me if I sound like an idiot!

OK I looked at those two JPEGS but I'm still a bit mixed up here, how does that thin rod tell me where the rifling starts? Thanks in advance from a noob.

Oh, and by the way, is Varget that bad for the .06? What granule type is 4350?

necchi · « **Reply #10 on:** February 09, 2010, 05:14:46 PM »

Here's a link with better pictures and an explaination;
http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2009/04/09/hornady-aka-stoney-point-oal-gauge-on-sale-at-midwayusa/

It's a $40 tool used with an $8 special cartidge, and then measured with another $35 tool

a straight one is used for bolt's and break actions, the curvy one (a different tool) is used with an auto.

The big deal is it the bullet comparator,,(that's the thing screwed on the caliper) measures the bullet ogive instead of off the point of the bullet. Bullets can be/are different lengths even from the same box.

Dances with Geoducks · « **Reply #11 on:** February 09, 2010, 07:09:37 PM »

Yes what he said.

Extruded powder (cylinders) IMR4350 is military grade, H4350 is civilian blend. H4350 works better in most 180-220 gr bullet applications.

drdougrx · « **Reply #12 on:** February 10, 2010, 03:24:16 AM »

Just do it this way.

1. Take your cleaning rod...slide it down the barrel until it stops at the bolt face...make a mark with a pencil on the rod at the muzzle.

2. Remove the bolt. Drop a bullet into the chamber and push it against the lands with a pencil or other short rod and hold it there.

3. Now take your cleaning rod again, slide down the barrel till it touches the bullet and make another pencil mark on the rod.

4. Remove the rod and measure the distance between the marks and this will tell you how long the overall cartridge will be in order to touch the rifling. Now you know the MAX OAL for that rifle with that bullet.

5. Load a cartridge and seat the bullet .005 shorter and see what you get for accuracy...then you know and can set your OAL as you see fit.

One caveat....some rifles have a short magazine length....for example...my rugers have a max magazine length of 3.36 in the long action, so the longest I can set a cartridge in my 06, 270 or 300win is 3.35 and still have the bullet nose not touching the mag. My Remintons have no such problem. Also, I generally dont pay much attention to cannelures.

GL!!

sk330lc · « **Reply #13 on:** February 10, 2010, 01:48:53 PM »

Quote from: drdougrx on February 10, 2010, 03:24:16 AM

Just do it this way.

1. Take your cleaning rod...slide it down the barrel until it stops at the bolt face...make a mark with a pencil on the rod at the muzzle.

2. Remove the bolt. Drop a bullet into the chamber and push it against the lands with a pencil or other short rod and hold it there.

3. Now take your cleaning rod again, slide down the barrel till it touches the bullet and make another pencil mark on the rod.

4. Remove the rod and measure the distance between the marks and this will tell you how long the overall cartridge will be in order to touch the rifling. Now you know the MAX OAL for that rifle with that bullet.

5. Load a cartridge and seat the bullet .005 shorter and see what you get for accuracy...then you know and can set your OAL as you see fit.

One caveat....some rifles have a short magazine length....for example...my rugers have a max magazine length of 3.36 in the long action, so the longest I can set a cartridge in my 06, 270 or 300win is 3.35 and still have the bullet nose not touching the mag. My Remintons have no such problem. Also, I generally dont pay much attention to cannelures.

GL!!

This is a great way to do it..
Varget is a Good powder for your o6. If thats what you have start with it.
What Kind of Gun are you shooting?
If it's a Bolt you don't have to Crimp. And can use just about any C.O.L.
I have found that the Lengths Listed in the Manuals for the Bullet your using is a Good place to start for the Most part.
After you get a load that shoots ok then Lengthen your C.O.L. to see if you can get better groups.

KeepTryin · « **Reply #14 on:** February 10, 2010, 03:46:28 PM »

Hi all and thanks for the tips.

sk330lc: I'm shooting a Remmie 700ADL.

Am I right in thinking I can go short OAL and all that will suffer possibly is accuracy? The .06 case is big enough to be forgiving of running the bullet deeper into the case without undue pressure issues with a 'starting load?' I'm basically trying to make economical hunting/plinking rounds, not going for some kind of phenomenal award-winning stuff here. And yeah, all I have right now is Varget.

Hey Geoducks... is that pronounced 'gooeyducks?' I watched a Mike Rowe 'Dirty Jobs' show about that, it was kinda messed up, those things are weird!

Thanks Again,
KT

Autorim · « **Reply #15 on:** February 10, 2010, 04:19:46 PM »

drdougrx pretty much has it right. You will have a more accurate measurement with a gauge that spaces off the bullet ogive as bullet tip deformation can affect OAL measurement to the tip of the bullet.

If you seat it deeper from the measured OAL, it should not matter. One thing that does matter is that the ogive is different on different bullets. I determine max OAL with a particular bullet, record it and put a dummy cartridge with that bullet in a ziploc bag with the OAL noted. I have Redding micrometer seaters for most rifle calibers. If you are using a regular seating die, after you have your seater set, you can measure the OAL of the seater die from the face to the top of the seater stem and record that in the ziploc with the corresponding dummy round.

Once you determine max OAL with the bullet just off the rifling leade, you then need then load a few dummy rounds and see if they will function through your rifle from the magazine. You may need to seat deeper to fit in the magazine. I do not crimp rifle ammo. I only load for bolt action and single shots except for a Mini 14 and I do not crimp for it.

I am a particular reloader and I tune ammo for each firearm. It may be overkill, but it works for me. The simple truth is that you probably will not be able to discern any appreciable difference in accuracy with seating depth unless you have a very accurate rifle. I recommend seating them deep enough to stay out of trouble and go shooting.

Ken

sk330lc · « **Reply #16 on:** February 10, 2010, 04:26:05 PM »

If it were Me. I would Start with the starting Load of Varget ( the Powder on hand) and work up in .5 Gr increments up till I Got a good Group Or starting seeing pressure signs. I would start with the C.O.A.L. Of 3.245. I know this length will Funtion in the magazine of the 700BDL It will Not be touching the Lands and it's what Hornady used. Saying that. If I couldn't Find a Load I liked I would Move the C.O.A.L. out and try the powder Load that Gave the best group Again. I would Work out till I was about .005" From the lands. I've found for me and all my rifles that .025"to .015" Off the lands is a sweet spot. If that fails Then I'd change Powders. IMR 4064, IMR4350, and RL-19 Are good choices.. Hornady does Not list Varget With their 180gr Bullets Just so you know. Hodgdon is showing the Sierra 180Gr BTSP in the data they used. I would use this for a starting Powder Load. Or compare it to your Lee Data..

How short are you talking about seating the Bullets??

Steve P · « **Reply #17 on:** February 11, 2010, 11:41:20 AM »

Quote from: drdougrx on February 10, 2010, 03:24:16 AM

Just do it this way.

1. Take your cleaning rod...slide it down the barrel until it stops at the bolt face...make a mark with a pencil on the rod at the muzzle.

2. Remove the bolt. Drop a bullet into the chamber and push it against the lands with a pencil or other short rod and hold it there.

3. Now take your cleaning rod again, slide down the barrel till it touches the bullet and make another pencil mark on the rod.

4. Remove the rod and measure the distance between the marks and this will tell you how long the overall cartridge will be in order to touch the rifling. Now you know the MAX OAL for that rifle with that bullet.

5. Load a cartridge and seat the bullet .005 shorter and see what you get for accuracy...then you know and can set your OAL as you see fit.

One caveat....some rifles have a short magazine length....for example...my rugers have a max magazine length of 3.36 in the long action, so the longest I can set a cartridge in my 06, 270 or 300win is 3.35 and still have the bullet nose not touching the mag. My Remintons have no such problem. Also, I generally dont pay much attention to cannelures.

GL!!

+1

OAL is for your gun....chamber and/or magazine. OAL in books is just record of what they did on the day they did their testing in their test fixture or their test gun. IT IS NOT necessarily the OAL for YOUR gun. In fast most of the time it is NOT.

Steve

Sweetwater · « **Reply #18 on:** February 11, 2010, 11:45:31 AM »

Quote from: Steve P on February 11, 2010, 11:41:20 AM

Quote from: drdougrx on February 10, 2010, 03:24:16 AM
Just do it this way.

1. Take your cleaning rod...slide it down the barrel until it stops at the bolt face...make a mark with a pencil on the rod at the muzzle.

2. Remove the bolt. Drop a bullet into the chamber and push it against the lands with a pencil or other short rod and hold it there.

3. Now take your cleaning rod again, slide down the barrel till it touches the bullet and make another pencil mark on the rod.

4. Remove the rod and measure the distance between the marks and this will tell you how long the overall cartridge will be in order to touch the rifling. Now you know the MAX OAL for that rifle with that bullet.

5. Load a cartridge and seat the bullet .005 shorter and see what you get for accuracy...then you know and can set your OAL as you see fit.

One caveat....some rifles have a short magazine length....for example...my rugers have a max magazine length of 3.36 in the long action, so the longest I can set a cartridge in my 06, 270 or 300win is 3.35 and still have the bullet nose not touching the mag. My Remintons have no such problem. Also, I generally dont pay much attention to cannelures.

GL!!

+1

OAL is for your gun....chamber and/or magazine. OAL in books is just record of what they did on the day they did their testing in their test fixture or their test gun. IT IS NOT necessarily the OAL for YOUR gun. In fact most of the time it is NOT.

Steve

Well Stated!! YES!

Regards,
Sweetwater

wncchester · « **Reply #19 on:** February 11, 2010, 12:01:38 PM »

I first started reloading .30-06 in '65. In those days few books even suggested an OAL and I've not yet paid any attention to any book length when developing new loads. (Very few of us owned a caliper before maybe the late 70s, we just made our OAL what it needed to be to feed, chamber and shoot well.)

Some of our recent generations of books have tried to help by giving starting OALs but they seem to have generated massive confusion instead. (But, to their credit I think, my newest Nosler and Barnes books still do not.)

An OAL variation of .005" in a sporting .30-06 is no variation at all unless you are jammed hard into the lands and there is no need for that.

KeepTryin · « **Reply #20 on:** February 11, 2010, 04:47:01 PM »

Wow, all thanks! Looks like I have more homework ahead of me.

I'll use this info to figure out in some way my chamber length and where my bullet is sitting relative to the rifling and decide accordingly... i.e. I'll get a chamber length and back the bullet out of the rifling something like .005 to .025, which is the range I'm seeing from these responses. Let me toss one out, even though I am NOT going to do it, it's just a question for my own edification...

What I'm understanding here is that because the .06 case is pretty big, (I can hear the Varget sloshing around inside) that seating a bullet fairly deep isn't going to cause catastrophic pressure stuff to happen. So if I went and made rounds like the factory ones that are 3.185 (with a starting grain load) I should be OK and not gonna get in trouble?

Like I said, I'm not gonna do that but am trying to get a handle on safe parameters. Thanks again and bear with me here, I'm new at this and not ashamed to admit it! Just don't wanna blow myself/gun up. FWIW, as far as I can tell my 700 is more accurate than I am with factory loads, off of sandbags.

KT

Sweetwater · « **Reply #21 on:** February 11, 2010, 07:17:36 PM »

You've got a pretty good handle on the situation.
I've had good luck with my 700, also a 30-06 soon to be 35Whelen.
Really doesn't have anything to do with the case being big; with starting loads, you will not sky-rocket the pressures with deep seating. However, IF you are going to work up to a higher level, you do need to establish your OAL before-hand BECAUSE as you go up in powder charge, you will go up in pressure AND if you try to duplicate the book max charges, your deep seating will put your pressures above acceptable ranges.

Go slowly, read a lot, stay safe and, above all, have fun!

Regards,
Sweetwater

Bullshop Junior · « **Reply #22 on:** February 11, 2010, 10:02:36 PM »

I always fit the ammo to my gun. I take a fired case, and push a small dent into the mouth so a bullet will hold. The I insert it into the chamber and close the bolt. When the bullet hits the rifling it will stop, and will push the bullet into the case. When I eject it I have OAL dummy. I then back it in about another 20 thousands. that is where I usually get my best accuracy. I then work the load powder charge (When I start at starting loads I always have to work up to get my best accuracy)

Hope that helps.