Hornady XTP bullets and lack of knowledge

[anweis]

I keep reading and hearing stories and comments about people using Hornady XTP bullets failing, blowing up, etc.
I believe that it is the fault of the operators, not of the bullets. I also believe that if someone shoots or hunts or uses equipment of any kind they need to become informed and familiar with what they are using and what they are doing. Same about bullets and muzzleloading. One needs to know for what velocities bullets were designed. I've seen so many people not being able to shoot properly a muzzleloader because they were ignorant that i really hate to think of all the injured deer. The dummest one was the guy who was trying to make his rifle shoot like the points and hash marks on his tactical scope.

So, if you insist on using 3 pellets of whatever, realize that those bullets will fly at over 2000 fps (the 250 grainers do 2200 fps). If you are using 2 pellets, you will be shooting about 1700 fps.
This makes a difference when choosing the right XTP bullet, because there are two types of XTP bullets: the regular variety and the Mag variety. These have different jackets. In the 250 grain variety there is the 240 grain Hornady XTP Mag, .4515" diameter, designed to hold together and expand at velocities over 2000 fps, and this is what you should be using if you are shooting 3 pellets or 100-120 grains of powder (which you don't need to and no deer on the planet requires, but if you insist...).
On the other hand, there is the 250 grain Hornady XTP, .4515" diameter, designed to expand at lower velocities, UP TO 1700 fps, which you should be using if you are shooting 70-90 grains of powder (2 pellets). These expand well at quite low velocities, because of softer lead and thinner jackets, or both, but will fragment if pushed too fast, or will expand too quickly and fail to penetrate enough.
On the contrary, if you are shooting 60-80 grains or 2 pellets and longer range, it would be a bad idea to use the XTP Mag or the TC Shockwave (same bullet but with plastic tip), because these bullets are designed to expand at higher velocities. They will penetrate, but may fail to expand.    

[DennyRoark]

It's a good line of reasoning and I'm not disputing any of it, but.....there are other factors that happen such as the wrong contour of loading jag crimping the end of the bullet and causing it to not mushroom.  Discussed in this thread  http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,193762.0.html
Also, buried in here somewhere are other discussions concerning minimum velocities for Hornady bullets.  I personally called Hornady two different times and got 2 different answers from 2 different techs.  My Omega X-7 wouldn't group well with over 80gr of powder and I was concerned.  Also that year my wife shot one at ARO 150yds with 80grs that broke the front leg bone, got both lungs and a pass thru and that buck ran well over 200 yds full out.  I'm pretty well sure that bullet didn't mushroom after all that!  But a glancing blow off the leg could have done that.  I also have a close friend that has several copper "flowers" from 250SW's that the core passed on thru.  I kept telling him to slow it down, but he switched to bonded and problem solved.  Generally speaking, you are right, but it's not all black and white.

[anweis]

Generally speaking, you are right, but it's not all black and white.

Exactly. But people should at least try. And unexpected stuff happens.

[Forestclimber]

I like the 300 grain Hornady XTP with 100 grains of 2F.  The bullets always pass through. 

[Bucker]

I sot the 300 graqin xtp/mag this year. I took a doe at 120 some yards and it went into the the body behind the shoulder and out threw her neck, sort of quartering shot. DRT and blood everywhere.  Loved it.  I have shot the xtp/mags and am very happy w/ performenac on them.  I shoot 110 grains BH209 on supplied sabots. Last year I shot a 10mm/200 grain xtp/mag over 110 BH 209.  Every xtp mag I have shot and been anble to find a bullet has mushroomed nicely and not blown up on the deer. I am pushing them hard and hopefully fast (I have no chrono) enough to perform.  I will also say I have never drilled a deer w/ them at less than 100 yards so that might change the equation somewhat....

[chefjeff]

I shoot savage ml  44 grains 5744 with MMP sabots,and the 250 gr. XTP(.452) with great results. Have a handful of beautifully 'shroomed recovered bullets. Most are pass thru. I tried the 300gr. Mag XTP and found they keyholed.They are a bit longer than regular XTPs and I suspect the MMP sabot petals were too short to stabilize them. Good Luck!

[alsaqr]

I have used the 240 grain .430 bullet XTP bullet on hogs and deer since 1999:  That bullet has accounted for about 20 deer well over 100 hogs.  Some of those hogs weighed over 300 pounds; most were bang flops.

Using two Pyrodex pellets or 100 grains of Pyrodex RS; the 240 grain .430 XTP bullet usually exits a deer hit behind the shoulder.  It usually does not exit a 200 pound hog that is hit low behind the shoulder.  An exit wound is not a big deal to me because my shots are picked carefully.   

Late last year i sighted in one of my guns with the 300 grain .430 XTP bullet.  Have used that bullet to kill 8 or 10 hogs and it knocks them flat.   The powder charge is 100 grains of 2F Goex Pinnacle.  The bullet exited a 275 pound boar that was hit behind the shoulder. 

[Huntsman1]

I have no experience with the XTP other than paper targets. I do however used the SST 300 & 2540 gr sabots and had the same results with losing core, blow up etc...
Still its been almost a 95% bang flop with every deer. These were the older SST's with hard plastic tip. The new Flex-Tip ones I got complete pass thru.
My hunting partner uses the 300gr XTP (bulk pack) and 90grs T7. We both have noticed core separation, complete jacket disruption, excessive lead fragments thru wound channel.....still though, IMO if you can detect, examine and compare the bullet after the animal is down then the boolit did its job.
The biggest fault I think with bullet/core separation is powder charge, there's no need for 150gr(120gr loose) magnum loads. Although they kill the animal they also kill the boolit.
My next venture is with cast boolits for my inline.

[Two Bears]

Some where on here I posted a picture of a XTP MAG that was the first ever bullet recovered from a pile of deer taken with this bullet and it was shot with 80 grains of powder.
It mushroomed perfectly. Retained well over 90% of its weight ( dont recall the exact % but 92-93% sounds right).
So even with a light load the XTP Mag performed very well which tells me this bullet which is designed to do well at high velocities does in fact do very well at low speeds.

I to believe that these stories about failing XTP's are operator error and even some are BS or BS added to the story to make one believe that they did not screw up themselves and it was the bullets fault.

Picture of bullet

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/album_pic.php?pic_id=1108

[anweis]

The biggest fault I think with bullet/core separation is powder charge, there's no need for 150gr(120gr loose) magnum loads. Although they kill the animal they also kill the boolit.
My next venture is with cast boolits for my inline.

Huntsman1: if i were shooting 120/150 grain charges, i would not use anything but premium copper or A-frame, or Partition type bullets. But, i shoot 80 grains of loose BH 209, and that is just dandy with the regular XTP bullets.


I considered cast bullets, but i found that the soft lead TC Cheap Shot were inexpensive and very accurate in my rifle.

[Huntsman1]

Anweis, have you taken any game with the Cheap Shots?

[anweis]

Anweis, have you taken any game with the Cheap Shots?

Not me. A friend who lives close by. He called me to help him lift and hang the deer. I got to see the wound. It was a broadside shot at 50-60 yards. Complete penetration, pass-trough. Clearly the slug had expanded violently (pushed by 90 grains of 777). The exit side of the rib cage had a hole of about 2.5" diameter.
The internal organs were very badly damaged, and the deer ran 10 yards. I don't know about lead fragments inside the body.

I have about 50 Cheapshots, and would not hesitate to use them. Someone here on this board reported a good kill with Cheapshots and 50 grains of 777, at 50 yards. I believe them. In fact, i am convinced that the TC Cheapshots are, in fact, Hornady XTP bullets without a copper jacket. I have the XTPs as well, and they are identical. 

When i wrote very accurate, i meant 1.5"-2" 5 shot groups at 100 yards, shot from a CVA Wolf, 80 grains of 777, with a 4x scope. That is accurate enough for hunting big game out to 150-200 yards, tough, i have no idea what their trajectory would be that far.   

    

[Two Bears]

The cheap shot bullets are not made by Hornady, I found the maker and they almost sold me a thousand of them but the guy figured out that he made a mistake and that he could not sell them to anyone except TC. He did send me some samples of them to "try out" but I can't get them in bulk.

[DennyRoark]

My wife has taken one with a cheap shot and target shoots with them a lot.  The one she got was front to back at 15 yds and was found under the hide at back of hind leg.  Tore that deer UP on the inside and picture perfect mushroom with only 70 gr Pyro RS.  The bad thing I notice with them is that they come with the MMP "longer" sabots and it is easy to damage the petals while loading.  I wish they sold them with the short sabots, instead of having to buy them seperate.  IMHO, great short to mid range hunting bullet.  I would have thought that at that close range, that bullet would have been smashed, but mushroom was comparable to XTP and Shockwaves I have recovered from 75 to 150 yds kills.

[Semisane]

There's nothing wrong with clipping a little off the sabot petals with scissors or large nail clippers.

[anweis]

The bad thing I notice with them is that they come with the MMP "longer" sabots and it is easy to damage the petals while loading. 

I did not think of it, or noticed. I use a starter ball with the appropriate shaped tool for starting them.
I did notice that if i replaced the MMP sabots with Harvester "crush rib" they are easier to load and perhaps slightly more consistent on target.   

[vabowhntr]

I really liked the cheapshots over about 75-80 gr of t72f.  Worked everytime on broadside shots.  Last one I shot with it at about 50 yards with 80 gr of powder, complete passthrough and great bloodtrail.