Author Topic: Anyone damage their cap and ball revolver in a multi discharge? (Read 2727 times)

His lordship. · « **on:** February 12, 2010, 05:46:56 AM »

I had two instances where my 1851 Colt had more than one cylinder go off when the Crisco grease oozed out on a hot day, one of the balls hit the wedge. I have shot the gun over the last several years and it did not seem to affect it. I now keep Crisco for cooler days and use felt wads on a hot day. But my gun really got banged pretty well when the extra bullet hit the frame area.

Anyone ever damage their revolver from multiple discharges?

El Gringo · « **Reply #1 on:** February 12, 2010, 12:19:10 PM »

That would surely shake one up a bit!
From what I've read this is mainly caused from a nipple to nipple jump, so be sure that the caps you use are a good fit.
I use over the powder wads also, and still sometimes put some grease in the cylinder holes.

Are you getting a nice ring of lead shaved off when you seat the balls?

bilmac · « **Reply #2 on:** February 12, 2010, 01:02:05 PM »

I had a multiple once but it just left a streak of lead on the front of the frame, no harm to the gun.

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #3 on:** February 13, 2010, 04:26:09 AM »

I've had two multiples with Remingtons. Both occured when I didn't use grease or wads. Never had one when I used grease or wads.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #4 on:** February 13, 2010, 04:58:46 AM »

I've never seen it in person but I did get to examine a brass framed .44 which had been totally destroyed when all chambers fired at once. A young lady had bought the gun second hand with no instructions but a brief word of mouth from the original owner. She really didn't even know enough about it to answer my questions with any degree of certainty so I really don't know how it happened but all chambers fired with the very first cap. The recoil force was enough to drive imprints of the nipples into the brass of the recoil shield. It sheared off the cylinder base pin and the gun was in three pieces. It looked like the barrel and cylinder were still usable but the frame was junk.

His lordship. · « **Reply #5 on:** February 13, 2010, 07:13:45 AM »

El Gringo...as I recall, there was some lead shaving when seating the balls.

I have not shot the gun for over a year, but hope to take it out soon. On several occasions over the years I have shot a cap and ball without any grease or felt wads by accident and the gun did not chain fire, I guess it is not a guarantee of problems if you skip that part, but I make sure it is done now.

FourBee · « **Reply #6 on:** February 13, 2010, 02:40:44 PM »

Hey Chris:

A cylinder with well made chambers should trim off a ring of lead from the ball when it is seated, sealing off said chambers. Extra safety measures of adding a wad between the powder and ball, or grease over the ball are used by many BP gunmen. Caps should be well seated flush against the nipple. Loose caps can be squeezed a little between the thumb and finger to make a good seat. But the #1 unseen culprit in chain fires is a fractured chamber that leaks fire to or from an adjoinging chamber.

Even if the Crisco did melt and run, the ball should have been wet enough to douse a spark. If all the nipples were covered I'd suspect a thin wall between chambers that has cracked. JMTC

4B

coyotejoe · « **Reply #7 on:** February 14, 2010, 04:01:12 AM »

I have to disagree with that "trim off a ring of lead". I very lightly bevel the chamber mouths of my revolvers so that the oversize ball is swaged into the cylinder, not cut to fit. Swageing the ball into the chamber gives it a smoother surface with less tendency to lead the bore, does a better job of centering the ball and provides a tighter fit. Many years ago bullet sizing dies for cast bullets had a sharp shoulder which sheared metal off the bullet to reduce it's size. It was soon found that a gentle taper to swage the bullet down to size made for more accurate and cleaner shooting. All bullet sizing dies made in at least the past 50 years have used the swageing method. It only takes a very slight bevel, just breaking the sharp edge of the chamber mouth, to go from shearing to swageing.
I also disagree with the advise to squeeze caps out of round to make them fit the nipples. If caps don't fit they just don't fit and you should change nipples or caps to find a combination that does fit. Squeezing caps out of round to make them stay on the nipple is OK with singleshot guns but is not a good idea with revolvers, loose caps are a likely cause of chainfires.

madcratebuilder · « **Reply #8 on:** February 14, 2010, 05:14:59 AM »

I'm fortunate to not have had a chain fire in all my years of shooting black powder. A tightly swagged ball or a ball that shaves a complete ring seals the chamber. I like my RB to be .006 larger than the chamber mouth, this gives me a .003 ring. The caps need to fit the nipples tight, not squeezed to fit. Most chain fires are from poor fitting caps. This has been recognized since the first revolvers started being produced. Sam Colt wrote about it more than once, Manhattan has patents concerning it. Greasing round balls gives you a false sense of security from chain fires.

Chambers with cracks, poorly sized, or out of round should be repaired or destroyed. Nipples are easily modified with a drill and file for proper cap fit, take the time to do it.

Just my .02

P.A. Myers · « **Reply #9 on:** February 14, 2010, 10:50:53 AM »

About 25 years ago I had two go off at once. The centered one and the next one to the right. This gun is a 1851 brass frame in 44. A gun like this is doomed from the start but this finished it. Nothing broke or bent but it got very loose. It makes a pretty display piece.

Gatofeo · « **Reply #10 on:** February 15, 2010, 04:02:06 PM »

Bought my first cap and ball revolver about 1970, when I was 15. It was Italian made: brass-framed 1851 Navy in .44 caliber. Roughly finished but it was a good learner.
On three separate occasions I had multiple discharges with it.
In those days, I was using a .451 ball, DuPont black powder (FFFG), probably Remington caps and Crisco over the seated ball. It was the common advice.
1st Discharge: ball at 2 o'clock (as you're holding the gun away) went off. Missed the frame, from what I could tell.
2nd discharge: Ball beneath the rammer and the same 2 o'clock chamber went off. No damage to rammer noted.
3rd discharge: Ball hit rammer again, and this time the chamber at 10 o'clock went off. Rammer damaged. After that, I junked the gun. I no longer trusted it and it didn't ram properlly besides.

In those days I wasn't pinching the caps into an oblong, to make them cling to the nipples. I now believe that the caps were knocked off by recoil, or fell off just before firing, and the extra chambers were ignited by flame entering at the rear, not around the ball.
I no longer believe that multiple ignition begins at the front, by flame going in around the ball.
Since I now pinch the caps, use .454 or .380 balls, employ a greased felt wad between ball and powder, I have had no multiple discharges. And note too, when I use greased felt wads, I don't put grease over the ball. There is no need.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #11 on:** February 15, 2010, 05:57:48 PM »

Started reading this post and said to myself, "self, this boy makes a lot of sense!" Then I looked at the author... no wonder!

kid buckskin · « **Reply #12 on:** February 17, 2010, 01:58:32 PM »

just a thout but dosent anybody pre dent the caps to the nipples? becuse if the are dented and they fall off you knowit before you shoot it. this is a common pratice with our gunslingers, becuse when they chain fire in the middel of a gunfight and you get a flamin ball of fire coming to get ya , well lets just say it will make a person pay attion, ofcorse we are shooting blanks (bp, florafome, packed tight )

Bigeasy · « **Reply #13 on:** February 17, 2010, 02:16:42 PM »

A cap and ball revolver will flash fire a second chamber. When I was a kid, I had it happen on a Remington style 44 revolver. Was loading with crisco over the ball as lube, no problem. Ran out of crisco, but kept shooting. Not long after, had two chambers fire at once. All balls were proper size, and the caps were pinched for good fit. I remember checking the fired chamber, and the cap was still in place, and not fired. I was lucky it did not hit the frame, and never happened again as I always used grease or a lubed over powder wadd before firing. Now I know why they say to never hold your cap and ball revolver by the lower frame with your left hand when you have a shoulder stock attached...

Larry

fatoldfool · « **Reply #14 on:** February 17, 2010, 02:24:41 PM »

What does this mean? "just a thout but dosent anybody pre dent the caps to the nipples? becuse if the are dented and they fall off you knowit before you shoot it. this is a common pratice with our gunslingers",

FourBee · « **Reply #15 on:** February 17, 2010, 04:44:58 PM »

kid buckskin

Quote

pre dent the caps to the nipples

Hey kid buckskin : Like fatoldfool said.................
I never heard of this before. Can you give us some details !?

4B

gcrank1 · « **Reply #16 on:** March 23, 2010, 12:11:20 PM »

Failure: A very nice Lyman 1860 Army, new C&B shooter. Muti discharge, wedge lost, barrel blew off. He filed up a new wedge, stuck it all back together and did it again. This time it blew the cylinder pin out of the steel frame with the barrel.
My analysis in inspecting the revoler some years afterward: As this was two distinct incidents and I could only see the results after no.2, the damage is cumulative, but......
He didnt wipe the cylinder chambers dry and snap a cap on each before loading. A hang fire or contaminated load did not allow a ball to exit the barrel. A follow up shot hit the bore obstruction, bulging the barrel (there are two bulged areas). A chain fire ensued, c/w "quite a ball of fire" and he was left standing, grip in hand, with only the frame left.
Loose caps popping off likely cause the chain fire, but if you experience a squib load, or see no indication of your ball having exited the arm, carefully make sure you didnt stick one in the bore.
This revolver has been disabled and is used as a 'prop' for re-enactments and also a 'dont do this at home' show and tell.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #17 on:** March 23, 2010, 02:47:34 PM »

Your analysis gcrank1 may well be spot on. Since most of the events happen to new shooters they often don't know what they may have done wrong and maybe can't even explain their loading process in language we can understand. That was the case in the one blow up I have examined. This couple had bought a second hand brass framed 1860. The first time they fired it all six went with the first hammer fall.
The amazing thing is that nobody was hurt. They brought the gun to me to see if I could tell them what went wrong. The cylinder had been driven rearward with such force that the imprint of the nipples was pressed int to recoil shield. I queried them about their loading procedure and tried to keep it in layman's terms but as best I could make out it sounded like they did it by the book but who knows.
I once sold a '58 Remington to a young guy and I repeatedly stressed to him that it was blackpowder or pyrodex ONLY. He went to a sporting-goods store, where I knew they stocked pyrodex, and fortunately showed me what he had bought. It was Hodgdon HS-6. A chamber full of that would spell disaster with a capital D and imagine the chainfire if six of those loads let go at once.
Sorry, it seems I told the blow-up story before, well at least I told it the same way! CRS you know.

Dave_C · « **Reply #18 on:** March 23, 2010, 05:19:47 PM »

I have only had a multiple discharge once and that was with a 44 Army Colt style revolver (steel frame) 4 went off at once after I had fired twice. That particular revolver I noticed would have the balls dislodge from the cylinder from recoil and I never could figure out why I only had problems with that particular pistol, Maybe a tapered chamber, I'm not sure. The loads did tend to loosen up in that gun as you fired it though and I believe that is why it jumped from chamber to chamber and ignited.
It did no damage to the gun or me except to surprise me.

Rex in OTZ · « **Reply #19 on:** March 24, 2010, 10:20:09 AM »

Ive not encounterd any unintended discharges so far, is it fools luck or have I just settled on a good combination, I would imagine Sam Colt would have encounterd this problem and addressed it in some sort of Colt circular of proper operation??

For me I stock one size ball for all the .44's and they are actually for a .457 rifle they shave good rings
the caps I use I have to firmly seat them to even allow the cylinder to index.
I dont use any greases, puttys or waxes & wads that allot of folk use and havent encounterd this problem.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #20 on:** March 24, 2010, 01:50:31 PM »

I got my first C&B revolver, a Navy Arms Yank, in 1962 and have never been without one since, excepting a few years overseas with the Army. I've tried out most of what's available since then and have never had a chainfire nor have I witnessed one. "Doing it right" certainly reduces the odds but some people who have had that exciting experience insist they did everything right so I just accept that it can happen.
The "greases, puttys, waxes & wads" are not so much about chainfire protection, although they certainly can't hurt, but lead bullets need to be lubricated to reduce lead fouling of the bore.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 24, 2010, 02:59:32 PM »

+1 that, and a soft lube over the ball sure helps keep the BP fouling under control in the bore.

Flint · « **Reply #22 on:** March 25, 2010, 02:48:17 PM »

Coyotejoe's comment on the powder reminds me of an incident where the poster was advised by the salesman at the gun counter that all the powders were black.... Be careful that the people working at your local store know something about the subject.

I was present some 50 years ago where my boss (a shooter who started me on Civil War era guns) was shooting original vintage revolvers, a Remington 44 and a Starr 36. The Remington fired two chambers, leading one side of the frame, the Starr fired 3 chambers, as it had too much endshake and the caps struck the breech. Neither gun was damaged.

Elijah Gunn · « **Reply #23 on:** March 26, 2010, 04:27:53 PM »

Here is a link to an article where they intentionally set off an out of battery discharge (aka chainfire) www.brimstonepistoleros.com/articles/capping.html
I would have posted this sooner but I couldn't remember where it was. Also check out the article about static electricity and black powder.

FourBee · « **Reply #24 on:** March 26, 2010, 04:50:34 PM »

Quote

Here is a link to an article where they intentionally set off an out of battery discharge (aka chainfire)

Elijah; I've got the slowest Dial-Up in Oklahoma. So please Tell me, how'd they do it..

coyotejoe · « **Reply #25 on:** March 27, 2010, 04:51:44 AM »

4B, it was a test only of what would happen if a chamber should fire while being capped. They did that by modifying a nipple to accept a length of cannon fuse. I've never heard that anyone has been able to reproduce a chainfire at will.

FourBee · « **Reply #26 on:** March 27, 2010, 05:04:52 AM »

Quote

I've never heard that anyone has been able to reproduce a chainfire at will.

Me neither, Joe. They could cram a ball down the barrel of a loaded gun, then fire a round into it, and the back blast would more than likely set off a few chambers...

coyotejoe · « **Reply #27 on:** March 30, 2010, 05:55:04 AM »

On the History Channel I saw a pepperbox fire all barrels at once, well not exactly at once, it was more like full auto. I believe that was faked, I think the gun was modified to do that. The caps on that peperbox were pretty well shielded from each other and I can't imagine that the muzzleblast from one shot would reverse direction and run down those 4" barrels past a patched ball to ignite the powder of another barrel, much less all six.

trainsteeter · « **Reply #28 on:** May 17, 2010, 04:10:15 PM »

I replaced nipples in an 1851 navy and found out the hard way that they were too long shooting into water it looked like a shotgun blast. Over the years I have fired many cap and ball pistols with and without lube with no problem, I would guess that a proper fitting ball (and caps) is the best insurance.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #29 on:** May 17, 2010, 04:17:50 PM »

Quote from: trainsteeter on May 17, 2010, 04:10:15 PM

I have fired many cap and ball pistols with and without lube with no problem,

Welcome aboard Larry!

I'm always glad to have another brain to pick regarding my newest passion!

When I first saw your screen name I thought it said "train steeler!"

As you can imagine, we pretty touchy about that here in Kennesaw, Jawja...