Author Topic: 20" Rodman in NYC  (Read 1053 times)

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Offline GGaskill

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20" Rodman in NYC
« on: February 12, 2010, 12:41:00 PM »
Anyone know precisely where this is?
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: 20" Rodman in NYC
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2010, 01:24:15 PM »
     It's about 70 or 80 yards north of Ft. Hamilton in Brooklyn, New York near the eastern ramp for the Narrows Bridge.  

FYI

 Tracy and Mike


At about 1,080 pounds each, you can see more that 26,000 pounds of ammunition is piled up near this huge, 117,000 pound seacoast gun.



This gun was VERY impressive to me close up as I measured it's breech diameter in 2004.  Below you can see how this behemoth is pointed at the 693 foot tall Brooklyn support of the Verrazano Narrows bridge built in 1960 to connect Brooklyn, NY to Staten Island and New Jersey.  The tower is sited on the former, 96 gun, island, fort, Fort Lafayette.  Fort Lafayette guarded the entrance of New York Harbor after it was built in 1812. But with the growth of Fort Hamilton, its larger counterpart on Brooklyn's mainland, Fort Lafayette's military importance waned. During the Civil War, the fort became a military prison. One of its more notorious prisoners of war was Robert Cobb Kennedy, a Confederate spy who tried to burn down New York City. He was hanged on March 25, 1865, on Fort Lafayette's gallows.   See E. A. (Bud) Livingston's book about Brooklyn and the Civil War.




Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline GGaskill

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Re: 20" Rodman in NYC
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2010, 02:32:37 PM »
Near the obelisk about 4th Avenue and 101st Street?
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: 20" Rodman in NYC
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2010, 03:01:26 PM »
     Yes, that's the place.  It's called Fort Hamilton Park and is located at General Lee Street (101st street) and 4th Avenue in Brooklyn, NY.

T&M
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline dan610324

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Re: 20" Rodman in NYC
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2010, 03:10:21 PM »
suppose you dont need a concealed permit for that one  ;D
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline little seacoast

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Re: 20" Rodman in NYC
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2010, 03:30:32 PM »
What exactly were they thinking that the Confederate navy might have that would require such an enormous piece of ordinance?
America has no native criminal class except Congress.   Sam Clemens

Offline GGaskill

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Re: 20" Rodman in NYC
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2010, 03:46:42 PM »
Is the 20" that was in Fort Hancock still there?

I'm going to Jersey next week and thought I might do some cannon shooting (with a camera.)
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: 20" Rodman in NYC
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2010, 04:19:44 PM »
     It sure is, George.  Napoleon Couture stands proudly beside it in the little photo below.  Don't forget to go to the little beach side museum of lifesaving about two or three miles south of Ft. Hancock.  There is a really nice Lyle gun there and a line deploying box which was very, very interesting too.  See Battery Potter too at the fort.  Site of the largest and only two gun, steam lift, for 8" or 10" disappearing rifles of the Endicott period.  Lots of big 1890's shells and bolts lying about and a nifty shell hoist too.  

     Little seacoast,  I think they wanted something to send a Rebel ironclad ram like the CSS Atlanta to the bottom with one shot instead of 3 or 4 or 5 Dahlgren, 440 pound, cored shot as was required by the Monitor Weehawken in Wassaw Sound just south of Savannah, GA in 1863.

M&T


Mike, hamming it up a bit at Ft. Hancock, NJ with the 20" Rodman in 2004.  Nine miles from the 20" in NY.  Could their shot strike if they both fired at once with perfect aim?

Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline GGaskill

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Re: 20" Rodman in NYC
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2010, 04:32:23 PM »
Could their shot strike if they both fired at once with perfect aim?

Perhaps; some sources say the guns had ranges of 5 miles.

Thanks.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: 20" Rodman in NYC
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2010, 04:36:54 PM »
suppose you dont need a concealed permit for that one  ;D

If you were big enough to conceal it, NO ONE would ask you for a permit.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline RocklockI

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Re: 20" Rodman in NYC
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2010, 04:54:08 PM »
Ok ...Tracy you suggest that this Bob Cobb Kennedy was doing something wrong in trying to burn NYC ? Lets think this thru ...? ;D

I suppose ...it's the ox goring who's thinggage .

Do you think that 'maybe' the Union decided     that since we cant hit squat too often .....maybe we need a gun that only needs one hit ?????? ;D

It is a cool gun but like lilseacoast said .....What the heck did those yanks think the south had ? I wonder what the rate of fire was ? or how proficient the crews were allowed to become ...target shooting and all ?

Where they iron shot or shells ? Now that would be scary exploding beach balls !!!!
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: 20" Rodman in NYC
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2010, 05:47:49 PM »
Solid shot, 1080 pounds each.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline KABAR2

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Re: 20" Rodman in NYC
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2010, 11:55:49 PM »
These cannon were all part of a diabolical game called bowling for confederates.......
it was thought that whole battalions would be swept away with one shot,
if fired from the coast inland the shells could reach Richmond and end the war
with three or four shots.........  Lincon's super secret science unit had plans for
building rockets called the V1 (Victory 1) and V2 (victory 2) but the war ended
and the programs were cut...... the plans found their way to Germany years later........
 ::)



Now you know some kid will come along read this and add it to a history paper for
school........... because everything on the internet is fact.............
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Zulu

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Re: 20" Rodman in NYC
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2010, 04:00:22 AM »
I don't know about the Rodman but here is what they expected a 10", 300 pounder Parrott rifle to do.
Click on this.
Zulu

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9902E0D71E3BE63BBC4C52DFBE668388679FDE
Zulu's website
www.jmelledge.com

Offline GGaskill

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Re: 20" Rodman in NYC
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2010, 07:10:10 AM »
For the NYT, that is a pretty accurate article.  Of course, all those writers/reporters have been dead for a century.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: 20" Rodman in NYC
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2010, 01:18:55 PM »
I wonder what the rate of fire was ? or how proficient the crews were allowed to become ...target shooting and all ?

 Now that would be scary exploding beach balls !!!!

     Gary, I read several different accounts of the firing of the No. 1  gun at Ft. Hamilton and, as I recall, only four shots were fired.  All used the 1080 lb. shot and with successively greater powder charges of 50, 100, 150 and 200 lbs. of Rodman's 'Giant' type BP.  Upon the last discharge, the ball was seen to splash in the saltwater a bit more than 8,000 yards south of Ft. Hamilton, more than 4.5 miles away!

     The only beach balls that I am familiar with are those sold by Kmart and Target every summer.  They are 15" in diameter which equals the diameter of the 440 lb. cored shot of the Army's Rodman and the Navy's Dahlgren guns.  I have often thought of making  paper-mache molds for concrete mortar balls by using some of these as the positive and lowering them into a box which could be then filled with sand to resist the pressure of the poured concrete.  A 5" hole cut in the top, a little rabbit fence re-mesh, a couple of simple, steel, shell tong inserts with rebar anchors which could be affixed to the mold before pouring, cured, and spray painted black, and these mortar balls would look like the originals and fly pretty well too!




These cannon were all part of a diabolical game called bowling for confederates.......
it was thought that whole battalions would be swept away with one shot,
if fired from the coast inland the shells could reach Richmond and end the war
with three or four shots.........  Lincoln’s super secret science unit had plans for
building rockets called the V1 (Victory 1) and V2 (victory 2) but the war ended
and the programs were cut...... the plans found their way to Germany years later........
  ::)
Now you know some kid will come along read this and add it to a history paper for
school........... because everything on the internet is fact.............


      Allen, I think most of what we read here came from the recesses of your fertile mind, but, both Mike and I agree with the accuracy of that first sentence in blue, above.

     This is precisely what the Federal Monitor Captains ordered their gunners to do during the Second Battle of Fort Fisher, NC on January 13, 1865.  The Navy's mistakes in Fire Control during the First Battle of Fort Fisher, in which they attempted to subdue this,  'Gibraltar of the South', in December of 1864, were corrected.  No longer were all guns aboard the 58 warships of Admiral Porter's squadron to aim at the fort's flag which was flown from the fort's Headquarters.  A detailed plan was formulated in which each ship had a particular section of the fort's mile-long ramparts to fire at.

     The Monitor's guns were the heaviest in the fleet and they were ordered to concentrate on the heavy, Land-Front guns which stretched across the narrow, 400 yard wide, peninsula.  The Battery Commanders had the gunners aim low where the Atlantic Ocean met the beach 100 to 300 yards from the fort's 40 foot high ramparts.  The huge projectiles cut deep grooves in the beach and also in the soded, sand walls of the fort's ramparts, losing a lot of forward velocity as they bowled up and over the high walls, and then thudded down into the batteries and onto the parade.  This tactic worked very well.  After a few hours of bombardment, most of the Confederate guns had been damaged or destroyed.

     CSA Major General Chase Whiting pleaded with General Braxton Bragg to send as many reinforcements to the fort as possible; but when he refused, Gen. Whiting chose to join the fort's commander, CSA Col. William Lamb, to meet the Union's 10,000 man amphibious onslaught.  Although Whiting had previous problems with drinking during critical engagements, during this battle he was sober and resolute in his courage.  Several reliable witnesses testified to his exemplary conduct as one of these large 15" shells landed 20 feet from where he stood in the 'Pulpit' helping Lamb direct artillery operations during the bombardment.  Puffing vigorously on his cigar, he looked at it contemptuously and watched it's three fuses as they sputtered away, and then calmly, he averted his gaze from it just before it blew up.  He was blown flat upon the terraplein by the concussion, but discovered that he was not scratched by even one fragment as he picked himself up and dusted his uniform off.  :o :o

     Both he and Col. Lamb were both seriously wounded while leading infantry counterattacks on the third and fourth traverses, held by Federal troops, later in the battle.  Lamb was imprisoned locally, but Whiting was sent to a northern prison near NYC.  Guess where?  Think.  That's right, Fort Lafayette, at the entrance to NYC's  Harbor,  across from Fort Hamilton and now under the huge Brooklyn support column of the Narrow's Bridge.  He died from his wounds on March 10, 1865 in the Fort Lafayette Hospital.

     Surviving Marine sharpshooters who were part of the Union Navy's Landing Party assualt upon the Pulpit area, at the fort's 'Angle', testified after the battle that the best protection they had on the beach, near the fort's land face, were the deep ditches and furrows plowed by those heavy, 15" Dahlgren Gun shells, fired from the Federal Monitors, as they "bowled for Confederates".

Much of this is from Confederate Goliath: the Battle of Fort Fisher.by Rod Gragg.

Regards,

Tracy and Mike

     
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline GGaskill

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Re: 20" Rodman in NYC
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2010, 03:21:00 PM »
Well, I made it to Fort Hamilton but the route the GPS gave me let me off in north Brooklyn at 5th Avenue and 3rd Street.  So I had to drive down 5th Avenue to 101st Street which took so long that I didn't have time to drive down to Sandy Hook to see the other Rodman.  I'll post a picture or two after I get back to socal tomorrow.

I have to say that it didn't seem all that large.  Kind of like seeing Phantoms (which could carry a heavier bomb load than a B-17) and then seeing a B-17.  Once you compare the two, you can easily see why the jet could carry more.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill