Author Topic: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)  (Read 3395 times)

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Offline bearmgc

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2010, 06:17:12 PM »
LOL. Still love reading it, always brings a chuckle. ;D

Offline Bigeasy

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2010, 06:33:03 PM »
R/E car-

Yes, that would be a nice ride.  I have been thinking of my old high school car - a 65 goat.  To much money these days, but if I can find a 65 Tempest or Le mans in decent shape, maybe do a GTO fake - same body.  The 65 was nice as it was a one year body - cleaner then the 64, and not as long and awkward looking as the 66/67.  Just not many of the non Mustang/Camaro bodies left that are not rusted badly.

Larry
Personal opinion is a good thing, and everyone is entitled to one.  The hard part is separating informed opinion from someone who is just blowing hot air....

Offline mattri

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2010, 04:10:15 AM »
Ok let me see if I'm catching all of this.

Use your rifle first, its already in your hands and ready to anyway.

Also carry pepper spray- can't hurt.

Double action revolver .357 or bigger. 

As an aside my mom drove a Tempest in high school, got it from my uncle when he picked up a Road Runner.  She says she didn't like it, too fast. 

Offline Winter Hawk

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2010, 05:01:06 PM »
You are out there with a high powered rifle, probably .30-06 or bigger.  A bear charges you.  You empty all four or five rounds out of the rifle into him without stopping mr. bear.  By now he is on top of you, and you think you are going to pull the revolver out and start shooting?  You will be better off being very sure of your aim with the long arm!  

When I came to Alaska in 1966 I bought a .44 magnum.  The old timers all said to save the last cartridge for myself in the case of a bear attack!  We had a presentation at the University by one of the Fish & Game people and he was asked about carrying a handgun.  His response was that, what they had seen, the people with pistols tended to push the personal space of the bears and got into trouble more.

Then remember also that the .44 magnum is ballistically equivalent to the .30-30.  Grizzlies have been killed with .30-30, but most people wouldn't carry one for bear protection.  Now I know, lots of bears have been killed with the .44 in a self defense situation.  However, a lot of bears have only been wounded which then makes them even more dangerous.  When I was at Cape Yakataga working, some guy saw me walking the beach on my time off.  He was staying in one of the mining cabins there, and called me to ask if I could help him look for a bear which he had shot with his pistol.  It had walked by the cabin the night before and he wanted to chase it off so he shot it.  We were working on a new water line to the White Alice site, and this meant we had to have a rifleman on the job to make sure we weren't attacked by a wounded bear!

Later on I worked on a survey crew with a guy (his last name escapes me after almost 40 years) who had been backpacking off the Denali Highway with a friend when they were charged by a grizzly.  Now Roger had been a major in Special Forces in Vietnam and had enough fruit salad on his uniform to feed an army; he was cool under fire.  He carried a .44 magnum, loaded with five rounds and the hammer on the empty chamber.  He emptied all five into the bear, then was able to reload three rounds while the bear was killing his friend.  The bear then came at him and he got all three of those rounds into it before it finally fell dead a foot from his toes.  Fish & Game found all eight rounds were within 8" of each other in the bear's chest and any one of them should have killed it, except it didn't know it was dead....

Incidentally, a head shot is NOT advised on a bear.  The skull is thick and sloping and can deflect the bullet.  The US Forest Service teaches to put all the rounds into the chest cavity.  I was a qualified rifleman with them in SE Alaska.  We had to have at least one rifleman with each crew working in brown bear country, and that person was issued either a 12 ga. pump shotgun or a .375 magnum rifle, no hand guns allowed.

Okay, that's about what I have to say about the subject.  Carry a .30-06 or larger rifle with 180 grain (or larger) bullets and save the weight of carrying that pistol.

-Winter Hawk-
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Offline dscp

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2010, 05:33:45 PM »
::)      You know there are more things involved than those mentioned . If he packs a pistol then he has some peice of mind knowing that its there . I do not know the fellow but if he has to take nerve/sleeping pills because he doesnot have one ?? Maybe he should pack the BIBLE . Can you convert a bear at full charge or do you gotta do that earlier ? And the making a head call , etc would be easier with a 44 than an 06 or bigger .
      How much is a good peice of mind worth ? regardless of whether it based on the truth or not !      Think about it .
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Offline Sweetwater

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2010, 07:12:14 PM »
::)      You know there are more things involved than those mentioned . If he packs a pistol then he has some peice of mind knowing that its there . I do not know the fellow but if he has to take nerve/sleeping pills because he doesnot have one ?? Maybe he should pack the BIBLE . Can you convert a bear at full charge or do you gotta do that earlier ? And the making a head call , etc would be easier with a 44 than an 06 or bigger .
      How much is a good peice of mind worth ? regardless of whether it based on the truth or not !      Think about it .
dscp


+1  We are talking a lot here about personal comfort zone and what it would take to stay in it in Bear Country. Only the OP can answer that definitively, hoping that some of our suggestions will weigh in his choices. If he is gathering wood for supper/campfire, is he going to be packing the rifle along? I might, but I would have my 41mag revolver regardless of what else I had. Not that it would for sure kill a bear, but it DOES give me confidence to stand my ground AND makes a lot of niose. The less fear you show the more apt the bear is to leave you alone. Every encounter will yield a different set of circumstances. So far, so good. We have always been able to part with our dignity intact. Still, without my handgun, I doubt I would have had the nerve to see it through without panic taking over. I wasn't hunting and carrying a rifle was impractical.

Hope is some way we have made your decisions easier.
Regards,
Sweetwater
Regards,
Sweetwater

Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway - John Wayne

The proof is in the freezer - Sweetwater

Offline mattri

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2010, 02:15:24 AM »
Wow you guys have given me a lot more to think about than I had planned.  There is a lady at work who's boyfriend works for F&G here, I'm going to ask him about this as well.  When I have a more deffinite plan of attack I'll let you all know what it is.  Thanks again for all the great replies, whichever way I go it will be a better plan than I had. 

Offline S.E.Ak

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2010, 06:32:52 AM »
The 10mm semiauto has a bit of following in Alaska also

Offline scootrd

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2010, 09:00:56 AM »
::) Maybe he should pack the BIBLE . Can you convert a bear at full charge or do you gotta do that earlier ?

Didn't someone try to convert a bear once. I believe it half worked .
If I remember correctly the bear stopped for a few moments to put
his paws together to state -

"I wish to thank you Lord for the Food I am about to receive"
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Offline Sweetwater

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2010, 12:11:04 PM »
Might have been mistaken for the bear Davy Crocket tried grinning to death - that didn't work either. Seems in either circumstance, it takes more than a pretty smile to get the point across.....

God Bless!

Regards,
Sweetwater

Regards,
Sweetwater

Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway - John Wayne

The proof is in the freezer - Sweetwater

Offline mattri

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2010, 04:49:34 AM »
Been doing some research into this and have come up with the following.

In WY anyone over 21 and legally allowed to own a firearm can sell a pistol to anyone else who is also over 21 and allowed to own a gun.  Both parties should have a bill of sale for the gun and it is reccomended but not required that the bill of sale be notarized. 
I grew up back east and let me tell you that is NOT the case where I'm from. 

The other issue hasn't become much clearer though.  Out of all the people I talked to, hunters, ranchers, F&G employees etc they seemed pretty divided on pepper spray vs a handgun. 

Guy at work has a .357 double action revolver that he's willing to trade some work on his truck for.  Would this be an effective choice or would it be like peeing in dark pants, warm feeling but not much else? 

Offline S.E.Ak

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2010, 06:42:51 AM »
If its a quailty gun I would get some 180gr Bufflao Bore and pratice alot with cheaper stuff.I live in Alaska and have a Ruger Alaskan in 454 but often just carry my SP 101 with the Bufflao Bore 180's

Offline mattri

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2010, 07:41:56 AM »
ok thanks for the reply.  So lets say that I get the gun.  I have about 6 mo before even going scouting in bear country.  Whats the best way to practice for shooting a bear? 

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2010, 08:39:37 AM »
Simulate stress, maybe a hundred yd dash. Immediately turn 180 degrees and shoot three targets two shots each at twenty, ten, and two yards. M.ight also do the same from a field dressing position.
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Offline S.E.Ak

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2010, 11:17:40 AM »
Just pratice 15 yards and in with 4" inch or less double taps on target. Shoot at least a couple of the big loads each pratice to make sure they hit in the same place. Bounce a basket ball size ball down a hill towards yourself and start shooting at 15 yards will give you some real idea of it all

Offline mattri

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2010, 05:11:53 PM »
Great suggestions thanks.  The bouncing ball is a great idea, think I'll try that one soon. 

Offline mattri

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2010, 02:52:06 PM »
The .357 isn't cocking right.  Have a line on a 45 long colt.  Is this an effective bear back-up?

Offline bearmgc

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2010, 03:04:09 PM »
Yes, loaded stoutly. Good to see you're still working on it. See you in the field, stalking bear. I'll give ya first shot. ;D

Offline charles p

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2010, 03:16:34 PM »
After you empty your elk rifle on a charging grizzly, a life insurance policy might be a smarter investment than a holstered handgun.  If your rifle is not dependable or capable, get a new rifle instead of a used handgun.  I do not know of a 5-6 shot revolver revolver I would prefer over 4 rounds from a magnum elk rifle.

I hunted in Montana a few years ago and a sow grizzly with two cubs crossed a snow covered logging road sometime prior to my return to the truck.  I've only been to MT one time in my life, so living in bear country for 17 years is no assurance of your future safety.  Neither is a holstered revolver that you can't shoot accurately.


Offline mattri

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2010, 03:02:29 AM »
Thanks bearmgc, I'll let you know how it turns out. 

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2010, 03:30:45 AM »
mattri, there are some guys that hunt with just handguns, that is there primary and secondary gun. I have hunted black bear with only my handgun, in and out of the woods, dark and long trails. You just have to get mentally prepared. In a survival situation, you use what you have available.

When I hunted in Alaska, we were definitely in Grizzly country, the second day we were there, we got a visit from a 700 plus pound Grizzly.  We used our heads and backed out of camp and got about 200 yards away from the Grizzly, he knew we were there and he decided to leave, which was great for us. My first weapon of choice was my 300 Win Mag rifle. But let me tell you, I felt under gunned when I saw the actual size of him. I brought a custom 2 1/2 inch 454 Casull with me, and I sleep with it on my chest all night for the remaining 8 nights. Did I feel under gunned with the 454 Casull, I sure did, but it gave me a piece of mind that I had some kind of a fighting chance.

We never seen another Grizzly in the last 8 day, but we did have a pack of wolvers come into our camp at night, which will get the hair on your neck to stand up as well.

I practice by shooting a lot. Get to know your gun and how it operates. The 45 Colt is a lot better round then the 357 Mag in my opinion.
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Offline mattri

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2010, 03:54:50 PM »
Redhawk1, thanks for a great reply, you hit the nail on the head. 

I've hunted deer all my life, mostly whitetails back east.

Now I hunt mulies and last year was my first time in elk country.  We never saw a bear but we saw some sign that made your toes curl.  I hope to never be anywhere near a bear, don't hunt them, don't want to eat them. 

If I do happen into a situation where I think I actually have to shoot the rifle is plan A, and I would like a viable plan B. 

Part of my original question was about buying a handgun used, which doesn't seem to be an issue here.  As I learn more about this I may just end up biting the bullet and buying one new.  Hate to pony up that kind of cash but its kind of like insurance: no-one wants to pay for it but when you need it you need it to be good. 

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2010, 05:45:16 PM »
mattri, get the biggest handgun you can shot well. The 45 Colt can be loaded from mild to wild, same with a 44 Mag, shot 44 Specials for practice, and getting use to shooting, them move up to full house 44 Mag loads.

My back up gun now is my 4 inch S&W 500 Mag, I shot it well, and it will kill anything I shoot with it, as long as the bullet is placed right. Penetration is out of this world, and that is the least of my worries. Big holes and hard cast bullets.

One thing is, the peace of mind one gets having it. No one can deny that.
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Offline Siskiyou

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2010, 06:05:08 PM »

I can understand you wanting to carry a handgun in bear country.   I only deal with black bears.   Now that bear season and deer season open up the same day taking care of a problem bear is easier from a legal stand point.  Many times getting a deer out of a nasty location requires putting the rifle aside while moving the deer.  It seems that some bears think the sound of a rifle is the dinner bell and come looking for a meal.

I was setting at the base of a juniper tree watching a side hill and turn around and spotted a black bear coming at me at full speed.  I stood up and brought my rifle to bear on the bear.  When I stood up he did a 180-degree turn and went the opposite direction.  I am guessing that the bear spotted movement at my location and thought it was a meal. Another nano second and I would have fired.
I can image not seeing the bear and it rolling me from behind, and separating me from my rifle which normal rest in my lap when I am glassing a hillside.  At that point a holstered handgun earns its keep.

I admit that at times I do not carry the best handgun to deal with bear.  In my neck of the woods grouse season is open the early part of deer season and I like fresh grouse and they are legal take in my state with a .22 pistol.  (May not be legal in some counties.)  But there is one area I forget about the .22 and carry a 357 full time. 
I feel very comfortable with a .357 because I have had a lot of training and practice with it.  If I was going to buy backup handgun for bear country I would purchase a 4-inch, .44 S&W Magnum.  A secondary choice would be a 4-inch 41 Magnum.  There are more powerful handguns but both are controllable.  The heavier gun you buy the more likely you are not going to carry it in tough country. 

I did encounter a Griz while fishing in B.C. and retreated back to the boat and spent the day out on the lake fishing instead of a very productive stream.

Whatever you get I suggest you practice.  You might have some fun.
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

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Offline Ak.Hiker

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2010, 06:50:44 PM »
If its a quailty gun I would get some 180gr Bufflao Bore and pratice alot with cheaper stuff.I live in Alaska and have a Ruger Alaskan in 454 but often just carry my SP 101 with the Bufflao Bore 180's
Same with me. I just think of the SP 101 as a last ditch save my bacon gun. The BB 180 grain hard cast will penetrate similar to a good 44 Magnum 250 grain cast load.

Offline S.E.Ak

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2010, 09:54:41 PM »
The .357 isn't cocking right.  Have a line on a 45 long colt.  Is this an effective bear back-up?

In a strong 45 colt it is. Most of the Colt clones won't handle the heavy loads.Most of the Rugers are OK but their new cowboy gun is lacking in full power strength

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2010, 06:33:12 PM »
WITH  ALL THIS BEAR  EXPERTISE

WHY  CAN'T SOME ONE EXPLAIN  HOW A BEAR REACTS TO  EXTREEM MUZZLE  BLAST???

HAS  NO  ONE EVER  SEEM  A BEAR REACT TO MUZZLE BLAST...NEAR OR FAR

SEEMS LIKE THE MUZZLE BLAST  FROM A FEW FEET WOULD DISORIENT ANY ANIMAL

ESPECIALLY  A 2 INCH  357  IS LOUD
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

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Offline S.E.Ak

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2010, 07:37:30 AM »
WITH  ALL THIS BEAR  EXPERTISE

WHY  CAN'T SOME ONE EXPLAIN  HOW A BEAR REACTS TO  EXTREEM MUZZLE  BLAST???

HAS  NO  ONE EVER  SEEM  A BEAR REACT TO MUZZLE BLAST...NEAR OR FAR

SEEMS LIKE THE MUZZLE BLAST  FROM A FEW FEET WOULD DISORIENT ANY ANIMAL

ESPECIALLY  A 2 INCH  357  IS LOUD

If you were in a fire fight for your life would muzzle blast deter you?

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2010, 02:57:33 PM »
POLICE  CONTINUE TO USE THOSE FLASH/BANGS  FOR SOME REASON

i have hears a bear can be  intimidated  be yelling
i  just  dont'  know

don't want to speculate

does any one  KNOW
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline S.E.Ak

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Re: need a backup for bear (can I buy a handgun 2nd hand?)
« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2010, 04:11:58 PM »
Ok most leave and you never even know they were there. Others will leave once they see and hear you. Some will leave when you use pepper spray. Some will try to maul you no matter what you do so your choice is roll in a ball or shoot to kill.Brown bears are more likely I believe to maul and some live through it.Black bears seem to figure eat what you kill and hate to just walk away from fresh meat.
Question if the perps threw a flask bang back at the cops would they break it off and leave