Author Topic: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test  (Read 1538 times)

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Offline LouisianaMan

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.38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« on: February 14, 2010, 04:49:40 PM »
A while back I posted some penetration tests on .38 SPL 200g and .32 S&W Long 115g bullets vs. water-filled milk jugs. Since I recently re-equipped my wife & daughters with sets of 2" and 4" barreled revolvers in caliber .38 S&W (NOT .38 SPL), I thought I would share some initial results against milk jugs.

TARGET: 5 water-filled jugs, backed by 2x12.
RANGE: approx 10 feet
GUNS: S&W Mod. 32-1 (2") and S&W 33-1 (4")
LOAD:
   a. BULLET: Lee LSWC-TL, .358--158g nominal size. I "beagled" the mold to produce a fatter bullet when casting, as my revolvers' bores slug at .359. Outcome of casting was .359-.361, 161g with 50-50 WW-Pb + 4 oz. tin per 20 lbs. alloy. Estimated BHN = 7-9. COL: 1.155"
   b. Powder: Win 231. Charge: 3.0g. Chrono'ed velocity for 5-shot string: 708.2 fps avg, with SD slightly over 12 (i.e. very consistent). NOTE: this powder charge is derived from Lyman 49th for 160g bullet, but my charge IS IN EXCESS OF RECOMMENDED LOAD. USE A RELOADING MANUAL TO WORK UP YOUR OWN LOAD. In previous tests, I have noted that my lot of Win231 appears to be slower than average, which lot variation has been noted by Ed Harris as characteristic of this powder. Therefore, I start with recommended data and then work it up over the chronograph to vels similar to published velocities. Ed considers 700fps max for a 200g bullet in this gun, so I'm very comfortable with the same velocity from a bullet about 20% lighter.

OUTCOME: both the snubbie 2" and its longer-barreled 4" twin put their bullet thru all five milk jugs in an absolutely straight line, then buried themselves into the 2x12 behind the jugs. Interestingly, the bullet from the snubbie is buried up to its base, whereas the bullet from the 4" gun is embedded "only" halfway into the board. (See photos) Perhaps a measurement of barrel-cylinder gaps on the two guns will explain the difference, or perhaps it's a result of the slight out-of-roundness in each bullet caused by the "beagling" process in casting--perhaps one obturated more fully than the other.

NOTE on photos: the groups fired were from a 2.9g load at 40' from sandbags. The group size is largely a result of my marksmanship, which is adequate for defense but no record-setter  :-) Note that the group sizes are completely adequate for close-range defense, which is our chosen purpose for these guns. The additional hole visible in the board was caused by my earlier .38SPL 200g LSWC-K test, fired thru 6 jugs (not 5).

200g bullet tests with these revolvers follow soon.
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2010, 07:32:04 PM »
I really do enjoy your post.
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Offline Mikey

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2010, 12:09:53 AM »
I would like to see how the heavies shoot in those two revolvers.  If nothing else, all these penetration tests are sure keeping us healthy drinking all that milk.......

Offline Siskiyou

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2010, 06:07:03 AM »
Good report!  Reports like this have me saving jugs.
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Offline LouisianaMan

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2010, 06:19:49 AM »
Thanks to all for your interest! I'm about to step out & load up some 200s, and will report back ASAP. We've been saving milk jugs for months now. . .lucky for "ballistic science" we're not lactose intolerant!
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Offline LouisianaMan

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test with 200g bullets
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2010, 02:42:05 PM »
OK, folks, step right up & help make the world safe for the lactose intolerant!

Update, 15 FEB 10, for heavy bullet fans.

TARGET: 6 water-filled jugs, backed by 2x12.

RANGE: approx 10 feet

GUNS: S&W Mod. 32-1 (2") and S&W 33-1 (4"). Chronography done from 4" bbl. approx 3" from muzzle.

LOAD:
a. BULLET: Lee GB mold 358430, LRN, 197-98g with 50-50 WW-Pb + 4 oz. tin per 20 lbs. alloy. Estimated BHN = 7-9. COL: 1.270"

b. POWDER: Win 231. Charge: 2.7g. My charge IS IN EXCESS OF RECOMMENDED LOAD FROM LYMAN 49th. USE A RELOADING MANUAL, CHRONO, etc. TO WORK UP YOUR OWN LOAD. In previous tests, I have noted that my lot of Win231 appears to be slower than average, which lot variation has been noted by Ed Harris as characteristic of this powder. Therefore, I start with recommended data and then work it up over the chronograph to vels similar to published velocities. Ed considers 700fps max for a 200g bullet in this gun.

CHRONO RESULTS (10-shot string): LO 624.4, HI 651.9, AVG 639.0, ES 27.54, SD 8.54.

PENETRATION OUTCOMES:

1. 4" bbl. chrono'ed for this shot at 662.7fps on this shot. Bullet tracked straight thru 2 jugs, then began curving down and left. Broke extreme bottom of 5th jug and did not impact 6th jug. Bullet not recovered.

2. 2" bbl. chrono'ed for this shot at 624.2fps. Bullet tracked straight thru 2 jugs, began curving down & left. Came out extreme bottom left of jug #4 and failed to hit #5. Bullet not recovered.

ME & free recoil calculations in 20 oz. gun for .38S&W:
Factory: 146g @ 685: ME 152 fpe. Recoil: 3 fpe, 12 fps.
Handload: 161g @ 709 (see yesterday's post): 180 fpe. Recoil: 4 fpe, 13 fps.
Handload: 198g @ 639fps (see yesterday's post): 180 fpe. Recoil: 4 fpe, 15 fps.

NOTE: all milk jugs are 6" wide, so my .38 S&W snubbie LRN penetrated 24" and the 4" with LRN penetrated 30". Earlier tests with a .38 SPL 2" with LSWC-K penetrated 36" with some power to spare. So did my LSWC .38 S&W 161g bullet from both 2" and 4" guns (see yesterday's post). Previous tests with 200g LRN in .38 SPL demonstrated similar deviation in penetration path as did the .38 S&W LRN. One theory about the old Super Police 200g LRN was that this tumbling increased effectiveness vs. straight LRN penetration, which tends to poke a self-sealing hole to some degree.

I'll soon try 200g LFPs (a .35 Remington bullet) and in August will receive Landric's group buy LSWC. I'll post those too, after testing. Not sure about the LFP, but the LSWC will doubtless penetrate straight.

See photos below, which include my personal primary (625-7, 45LC), both secondaries (M-67 and M-15, 38SPL), Colt D.S. .38 SPL, as well as one of four sets of M-32-1 and M-33/-1 in .38S&W. (My set for fun, three sets for my girls. Now, everytime they shoot one, it's reinforcement training for their own guns.)
Ammo shown: .45LC factory GDHP, 255g LFP handload. .38SPL 158g LHP+P "FBI Load," handloaded 200g LRN, handloaded 200g LSWC-K, , .38 S&W 200g LRN and .38 S&W 161g LSWC.
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Offline Merle

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2010, 02:58:41 PM »
Very interesting!
Looks like I need to get my casting equipment out of mothballs!

 ;D ;D ;D

Offline LouisianaMan

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2010, 03:34:36 PM »
Merle,
I'm a "functional" caster, just like I'm a "functional" shooter. Not expert, but pretty effective. I just started casting last summer, and enjoy it so much that I'll probably cast thousands more bullets than I'll ever shoot!

Not sure why the commercial ammo manufacturers simply dropped the heavy bullet loads in .38. (Perhaps hard to market them when trend was towards lighter JHPs?) I believe my LSWC-K 200s are at standard pressure still at 750fps from my 4" guns--they're certainly more pleasant to shoot than +Ps. Anyway, those heavy SWCs cut a swath thru something, there's no doubt. Before long I'll do a penetration test with them in 4" barrels--previously I only tested with 2" at 718fps--and line up about a dozen jugs & see how many leak aferwards.

If I still had a .357, I'd load a 900fps heavyweight & hollowpoint it in a soft alloy. At that vel, soft alloy would expand.
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Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2010, 03:48:05 PM »
i  love  shooting  milk  jugs  with  every thing i own

i have  some  180 grain  WFN  the  mold came  from  LBT

you want me to send you a few  slugs  and  you  duplicate that  test  and write  it up??

might  be a good  plug  for verel
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Offline LouisianaMan

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2010, 01:26:36 PM »
.45-70,
Sure, you send 'em, I'll shoot 'em! Happy to write it up, and will try not to get addicted to another bullet weight. . . :-)

Will PM my address.
Thanks,
Dana
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2010, 07:21:28 PM »
These are really interesting, not sure why, but it is fun to read them.  Real world would be about one milk jug = thickness of one person (unles he is really fat), so I guess  you could line up 4 bad guys and get them all?  I would say that after one milk jug that the rest of the damage would be "un-desireable"? Is there some "milk jug standard" study that I haven't read about or many milk jugs equal one bad guy?   Larry
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Offline mannyrock

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2010, 05:00:34 AM »

   

      Very interesting tests.  But to get a better approximation of body penetration, I would re-run the test using jugs filled with wet stiff-mixed oatmeal.  I'm betting that your rounds won't go through 5 jugs of that. :-)

Best,

Mannyrock

Offline LouisianaMan

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2010, 02:07:33 PM »
If y'all want to spring for the oatmeal, I'll shoot it!   ;D
Otherwise, I'll have to stick to water. I realize milk jugs aren't likely to initiate an attack on us, but it provides me with some idea of the relative penetration potential of different calibers & loads.

As far as overpenetration goes, here are a couple of thoughts. First, everybody has his own needs. Someone living in an apt. has to SERIOUSLY consider how to deal with shooting inside one, period. Almost anything will penetrate a couple layers of sheetrock into the neighbor's bedroom.

For my situation, more penetration is better. I'm very rural, have potential 60' indoor shot, and heavy leather furniture in an area where a BG would very likely seek cover. If he does, I want to root him out of there. Layout of my house & family otherwise restricts me very slightly--mostly it's "free fire zone," if necessary. I want my bullet to go thru a leather sofa, then thru a thick, upraised arm wrapped in a winter coat & two hoodies and a t-shirt, followed by shoulder, torso, and thru the vitals--preferably out the other side. More leakage is better.

You may have seen the saying, "Shot placement is king, penetration is queen, nothing else matters." I personally presume an engagement in my home would be against an intruder who is alert, juking & jiving to evade and/or shoot back. Therefore, my shot placement will be aimed center mass at whatever part of the BG is presented, and I'll be darned lucky if it hits there (stress, low light, movement, return fire, etc.) If I can hit him, I want it to go thru everything possible--I do not presuppose a full frontal exposure of a stationary target. If I could guarantee that type of shot, I would feel comfortable with a lightweight, reliably expanding bullet. (But why does Hornady find a market for its new Critical Defense line? Because expansion isn't fully reliable thru clothing & at lower vels.)

One other thought. . .when would you really take a shot with one kind of ammo, that you wouldn't with a different kind of ammo? If the background beyond the target is full of good guys, would you shoot a light JHP? What if you missed altogether?

So, I'm not criticizing the ammo selected by others. I'm just saying that with the low vel cartridge my wife & daughters will be shooting, expansion is ruled out altogether, and the potential for tissue damage & incapacitation of BG limited thereby. Therefore, I want them to have something that will really penetrate, damaging all available tissue--maybe 24"+ if it hits at certain angles--and it's nice to see that I can load .38 S&W to do that. (For my personal HD .45LC, I felt very happy with 250g Speer GDHPs, until this humongous leather behemoth in the living room followed my wife home. Since then, I load a 255g LFP.)

I don't know if Martin Fackler's ideas are the absolute latest & greatest, but until I find something better, I find him extremely persuasive. He doesn't necessarily argue for hyper-penetration, but he shows some of the crucial factors in handgun wounding effects that really make me doubt that a handgun bullet or two, of any sort or size, is likely to *physically* incapacitate an attacker immediately. That only happens when CNS is struck. First task of bullet is therefore to get all the way into the CNS, otherwise you must bleed him out or break him down (pelvis, etc.) I'll take a heavy lead bullet as a very good way to accomplish all of those three. According to Beartooth Bullets "PERMANENT WOUND CHANNEL" info, my .45 will create a hole over .80" wide, and I suspect it will be thru the sofa AND all the way thru the BG--maybe into CNS, maybe causing massive blood loss from long wound channel, maybe breaking down pelvis, or some combination thereof. The GDHP's hole will be over 1" wide, but will it be thru the sofa AND all the way thru the BG into his boiler room? If I carried the .45LC concealed or openly for SD, I'd choose the GDHP. In my home, it's heavy lead bullets.

As some say, you pay your nickel & take your chances. Hopefully we'll never have to try out any of these theories!
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2010, 06:32:38 PM »
If milk jugs are the standard then my guess is that an arrow from a cross bow will kill a lot more of them than any pistol will.  Next time someone changes living room funiture  I think we need a sofa penetration test to see how things work out.  Larry
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Offline Mikey

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2010, 01:46:19 AM »
Oh no, first milk jugs and now to living room furniture.  What next........ oh, btw, oatmeal sets up like concrete, not good for testing.........

Offline billy_56081

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2010, 02:16:28 AM »
The Brits had good luck with the 200 grain lead, but the 170 grain jacketed. Were found to be lacking.
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Offline LouisianaMan

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2010, 11:41:25 AM »
Larry,
Hey, if you want to donate a leather sofa to ballistic science, that would be OUTSTANDING! You would most definitely be my hero, and no milk jugs would be safe behind it. I can assure you that I will do my utmost to make them pay for their temerity.

And with all due respect to our medieval forebears & their crossbows, I prefer something that makes a nice loud "bang" when I launch it. :-) For HD, however, I will consider one if you can make it handgun-sized and capable of at least 5 shots in rapid succession!!

In the meantime, I'll have to settle for being able to slay no more than 6x6 milk jugs, i.e. a platoon of 36, if they ever make their way into the house uninvited. Well, at least until I pull out another .38. . . !

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Offline LouisianaMan

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2010, 11:51:06 AM »
P.S.--just be glad that USMA didn't let me bring home that M1A1 Thompson I'm shooting in the avatar photo. Imagine how many milk jugs I'd be raving about then!! Wahoo!

On a more serious note, I've heard the Brits liked their 200g lead bullet load, but that nobody was terribly impressed with the 178g (?) jacketed load they decided they'd better use. I would love to read original British reports on the topic, if anybody knows where to point me.

Mikey, if you're out there, can you point me towards a good place to find COL Askins discussion of this cartridge? (I'll try to Google it.) I've been impressed with your mention of his experience in shooting an enemy soldier T&T with the .380/200 at 25 yards, to include thru the guy's rucksack. That doesn't sound like a weak-sister load to me, for certain.
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Offline Merle

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2010, 03:04:51 PM »

   

      Very interesting tests.  But to get a better approximation of body penetration, I would re-run the test using jugs filled with wet stiff-mixed oatmeal.  I'm betting that your rounds won't go through 5 jugs of that. :-)

Best,

Mannyrock



I'm now saving up my juice bottles, since they have a screw cap instead of a snap-on cap. I intend to try either play-doh or modelling clay, whichever is cheaper. Since they are drier than oatmeal, I expect to get several shots per bottle, if I repack the clay & tape over the hole.

 ;D ;D ;D

Offline LouisianaMan

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2010, 05:15:24 PM »
On the .38 S&W front, I've loaded up some RCBS 35-200 slugs that weigh 214-215g with my alloy of 50-50 WW-Pb + 4 oz tin/20 lbs. After studying this .35 Remington bullet next to a Lee group buy 358430 200g slug, it turned out I was able to seat the 35-200 perfectly in its crimp groove using the same die settings I used with the 358430, which I crimp in the top lube groove. The 35-200 has less bullet inside the case and a slightly longer COL of 1.275" vs. 1.270".

I'll chrono it tomorrow with my starting load of 2.5g Win231--I reduced the 2.7g I used with the 358430, just for a safety margin. I'll try to develop something in the low-mid 600fps range and then try the obligatory milk jug test!

Photo shows (L-R): .38 S&W 161g LSWC; 358430 LRN 198g; 35-200 LFP 215g; .38 SPL 193g 358430. (All wts. as-cast, rather than nominal.) Bullets are tumble-lubed and arrayed above respective loaded cartridges, with crimp locations aligned to facilitate comparison. Guns are Police Positive Special and Mod. 33-1.
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Offline Mikey

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2010, 01:53:54 AM »
billy - you're right, the Brits were not too happy with the effect of the 170-178 gn slugs in the 38-200 as the reductionin weight made the cartridge that much less effective.  The 200 gn slug was heavy enough to carry on through. 

Dana:  you may wish to Google for Askins and see if you can find the names of the books and articles he authored.  I believe he wrote for Guns and Ammo in the early years, maybe even Shooting Times.  I believe he wrote for the Am. Rifleman as well but I believe he wrote about  his 'exploits' somewhere.  Askins credits himself with being the first man to use a 44 Magnum in Vietnam, in the early years and as I recall it was a interesting read.  And you're correct, the 38-200 ain't no 'weak sister' load.... jmtcw.

Offline LouisianaMan

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Re: .38 S&W vs. milk jugs--penetration test
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2010, 11:18:23 AM »
RECOIL TESTS (1st try) and 215g LFN penetration test:

I tried the 198g LRN in .38SPL with 3.0g Win231, seated in crimp groove. Average vel 574.6, so I'll probably need to try a 3.2g load to get velocities about the same as my .38S&W/200 load.

Apparent recoil in the Colt Police Positive Special, cal. .38SPL, was approximately the same--perhaps a bit stronger--than the .38S&W/200 fired from a S&W Mod. 33-1. Both barrels are 4".

Free recoil in the Colt .38SPL: 3 ft-lbs, 12 fps. In the S&W .38S&W: 4 ft-lbs., 14 fps. In other words, the .38SPL should have felt like it kicked less than the .38S&W.

In all likelihood, the somewhat stronger felt recoil of the .38SPL was a function of two things: the roundness of the Colt grip isn't as stable for me as the S&W grip, and I was in an extreme prone position as I fired over my chronograph.

Will post further recoil comparisons after I up the .38SPL/200 load to about 630fps, and fire it slow and rapid fire alongside the Smith .38S&W/200.

Although no milk jugs were injured in conducting the experiments above, 6 paid the ultimate price when I test fired one of the .38S&W/215g RCBS 35-200 cast from 50-50 WW-Pb + tin. An 8-shot string chrono'ed as follows:
LO 596.4, HI 668.4, AVG 622.8, ES 72.03, SD 21.44. Excepting the HI and LO shots, the other six were from 605 - 627 fps.

The bullet tracked STRAIGHT through 6 jugs and embedded itself into the stop board 2x12, which was backed by other jugs. Clearly, the flat nose provides straight-on penetration, rather than the curving & apparent tumbling of the 200g LRN. Note that it is deeper in the stop board after 6 jugs than the 158g after 5 jugs.

Photos below show embedded bullets (2 x 161g LSWCs, 1 x 215g LFN); revolvers and 50' targets--probably the first time these two minty guns were ever fired. POI was +7". The very clean LRN bullet in the photo of the 4" gun was found next to my line of jugs--it was one of those previously shot thru the jugs and originally not recovered.

7 of my 8 .38S&W revolvers are shown; #8 is in active service w/daughter. . . :-)
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