not necessary to carry in church... or is it?

[Greeenriver]

I carry a handgun every time I leave my home, and often in the home.

I've got much more to answer to God for than carying in church.

As I suspect that many of us do.

I do most of my talking to God outside, in His church.

Greeenriver

[E Texas Minuteman]

What I am saying is that you can't scare hell out of folks.
Christ message is one of faith not the law, as a means of salvation.
The law should be taught and the Holy Spirit will move on those who are His to mold and correct--but our salvation is not based on our perfection but on Christ. His Holiness is imputed, as a gift, to those who come to him in faith.
Fire and brimstone may scare one but it is the drawing of the Holy Spirit and giving the faith to believe that Christ is who He says He is---God, which leads too salvation..
It is a mixture of love and warnings, cajoling and urging which helps the faithful grow.
Fire and brimstone as a steady diet is not teaching the full council of the scriptures.
Blessings

Thank you William for your response.  It helps me understand your position.

I agree 'we' can't scare the hell out of anyone. 

I agree no man is saved by keeping the Law (that was the error of the Pharisees).

Note how today folks treat the gospel as if it doesn't matter, it's just a matter of personal preference ? 

Isn't one of the primary points of God's Law that is reveals the 'hell' (rebellion) that is already in us, thus paving the way for us to understand just how badly we need forgiveness & restoration by Grace ?   

It is the 'goodness of God that leads us to salvation', amen ?

It seems like the Good News can't be appreciated until we first hear the 'Bad News' - that is a detailed telling of the Law, which reveals our sins.  As Paul said, "I would not have known coveting was a sin, unless the Law had told me, 'Thou shalt not covet...."

If we heard more detailed teaching, preaching & application on the Law, and how far we fall short ('the Law hath concluded all under sin...'), then the Good News of Christ's taking upon him, the awful price of our rebellion, would be far sweeter.

That is essentially what I was trying (& failing ) to say in my earlier post.

"The Good News isn't truly good, until we hear just how awful, the Bad News is: our sins (disobeying His Commandments) condemn us to be separated from Him eternally, but Christ, who had never sinned, was punished for our transgressions (violations of His Law), that we may obtain right standing with God":

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

Proverbs 14:27 The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life (eternal life), to depart from the snares of death (eternal damnation).

It could be said the Old Covenant lays an unbearable burden of the Law upon us, proving our need.  The New Covenant relieves that tension, providing & applying our needs in Christ.........

Now, the Good News can begin to be truly GOOD NEWS !     

Praise God for that, eh ?   

[FourBee]

Fantastic; E Texas Minuteman !
Christianity needs preachers who are not afraid to reveal that testament.

[Sensai]

Virginia law is a bit vague about carrying in church.  The way the law is written I can only carry if I have "good reason", the way that I look at it is that if I ever have to display the fact that I'm carrying the "good reason" will be obvious.  I'm irritated that the "guvmint" is even envolved in this.  It's a blatant violation of the both the first and second amendments of the Constitution.

I agree with you fine gentlemen that there is much too much of what I call buffet religion, where you take what you want and ignore the rest.  The Bible has ALL of the answers in there, but until it's read, or at least heard, they are hidden.

[SHOOTALL]

Yea in Va. who decides ?

[JeffG]

I would like to clarify how I feel about this subject.  I assume people know why one would go armed in church. It really(to me) has nothing to do with God, Jesus, or the other reason(s) that we are in church:
 
 A person who would shoot up a church and harm or kill the parishoners is looking for a high density group of people that he or she can inflict a high body count, rapidly.
The reasons for doing this may be too widespread to catalogue, revenge, mental illness, etc.

Most of the people that are attending church are not able to take on, or defeat a person that is motivated or in the commission of such an act.  (Called the flock.) Nor should they have to be worried that this will occur.

The people that carry (weapons)in church are much more of the mindset to act if something like this were to unfold. They will place themselves in harm's way to save others. This mindset is not rare, but honorable, and I welcome anyone who is of this intent to sit next (armed) to me and be ready as we worship.

[RMulhern]

Anyone that's stupid enough to let a law of any kind interfere with their personal protection or the protection of their family.....deserves to have their arses kicked!!

[SHOOTALL]

so you feel it better the break a law get caught and be in jail ? I know what you meant but the reality is some will get caught and pay . And while they pay in jail who will be there for the family bring home the bacon and protecting them ? Best to stay with in the law or move to a place you can if possble

[williamlayton]

Carried one for over 30 years without a permit.
Not a big deal if you don't act like it.
Blessings

[SHOOTALL]

Not a big deal unless you get caught really . Like be in the wrong place at the wrong time .

[RMulhern]

so you feel it better the break a law get caught and be in jail ? I know what you meant but the reality is some will get caught and pay . And while they pay in jail who will be there for the family bring home the bacon and protecting them ? Best to stay with in the law or move to a place you can if possble

It kinda reads like this:

"It would be better to be in jail......than to be pushing up daisies!" And I do live in a state where CCP are available! Before that....I've carried one for 40 years!!

[mechanic]

In Georgia it's a misdemeanor offense to carry without a permit...unless you are in the process of committing a crime...I don't know about multiple offenses.

[SHOOTALL]

In Va. it is enough to keep you from getting a carry permit. Its a misdemeanor the first time and felony the second time . My point was who protects the family while you do the time ? Better to not go where things are that bad if at all possible . Here for many years if you were working in a bad place you were ok to carry and several police officers told us to . I just hate to suggest there will be no problem in this day and time .

[Curtis]

Shootall, that is one reason I had an 870 with 18" barrel and pistol grip close by any time my family was away from home.  It was still considered a long gun and the perception by some LEOs was likely to be completely different.  It wasn't a perfect solution but at the time it seemed to me a good compromise between the scenario you mention and not being able to protect my family at all.  Now with the stronger castle doctrine in Texas even folks that don't want to get a CCW can still protect themselves in their vehicle.  That ambiguous "travelling clause" we supposedly had for so long was a joke.

Curtis

[pneuby]

We should be wise as serpents, and innocent as doves. So as a Pastor, I would think it wise to task a couple men to walk the grounds during service times. Friendly, polite, willing to point someone in the right direction, but wary. I think a secret service model is better than a swat team model in that regard. I also would have every man in the church in the rotation ... like the swiss national guard.

Exactly.
I'm on our church's team. Of the 8 or so of us currently, only ONE is unarmed. We've not questioned him about his decision, and respect it. However, he surely has no problem with the rest of being armed. Myself and at least one other member carry a C2 as less-lethal response. It's the 'standard' in LE today, so it's higly defendable for us, also. Several of us are of LE background or military, or both.

Currently, there's only one of us patrolling during each of the two Sun. a/m services. We know well that it should be two, one on either side of the sanctuary. Until that time, one of us always has a radio and ear-piece with us during service, Secret Service style. We had several instances of 'street folks' disrupting the service, and other male members stood up to assist. However, it's obviously better to have at least two trained folks ready if needed.

There was a recent large conference for church security teams in our area. Several good suggestions were put forth. One is that you shouldn't necessarily keep things on-the-sly, hush-hush. Of paramount importance is that the armed good-guys need to know WHO the 'other' armed good-guys are. That is to say, even those NOT on the team, but merely attending service regularly. Thus, if we respond to screams of 'GUN!', we're going to have on our minds to I.D. the person wielding it FIRST...prior to immediate action. It was expressed that several 'other' armed church members responded in the Colorado shooting, and there may have been more death or injuries in the confusion of the high-fear situation.

Another idea is base off of the same reasoning. That is, all team members should wear a distinctive lanyard and I/D. Staff, greeters, ushers and the like should all be taught that the lanyard is 'us', and we're the go-to folks. Ideally, officers working your beat during service times should be shown a photo array of the team, and familiarized with the lanyard and badge.

Don't forget the NON-violence issues. Power outages, and the confusion that can ensue. Also, medical emergencies. Does your church have an AED and trained folks that can use it? How about first-aid kits, and CPR training? Do you know WHO the physicians and nurses are in your congregation?

[JeffG]

Good points, pneuby!!