MikeP,
Thanks for weighing in! One of your posts from several years ago played a role in getting me to re-think my view of this bullet weight in .38 caliber revolvers. Mikey's did likewise. I thank you both for that! Now, the .38/200 bug has stuck with me about 18 mos., with no sign of slacking off.
I've been posting these "tests" on several forums, with various responses leading the discussion in different directions, but I can sum it all up by saying that I think the .38 S&W cartridge has gotten a bum rap, no doubt due to weak factory loads provided on a lowest-common-demonimator basis: the weak break-tops. Additionally, the development of a police requirement to shoot through cars changed the equation in a way that left low-vel LRNs wanting. Another negative influence was the apparent weakness of the Brit service cartridge, the 178g FMJ bullet that allegedly failed to penetrate overcoats! See below for what a 200g LRN loaded to Brit military velocity specs does to a pine tree at 58 yards, and I think the overcoat story is an irrelevancy based probably on some instance of faulty wartime ammo, not the real potential of the 200g blunt lead bullet. On top of the that, the wartime DAO Enfields were so hard to shoot well that users weren't exactly enamored with the entire package.
Add to this mix the "magnumizing" trend, plus the rise of lighter-weight JHPs as the method chosen for development, and you have the 200g LRN, LFN or LSWC relegated to the proverbial dustbin of history. Unjustly, I believe!
There have been so many tales of the 200g LRN tumbling, that I find it very hard to discount. I doubt this reputation as a tumbler arose from thin air. But since the Winchester-Western pointy LRN and the Colt .38 New Police LFP/Brit service round differed so much in profile (see Brit diagram), I also suspect that the LFPs "drove straight through," as the British applauded, whereas the pointy LRNs may have curved or destabilized altogether, and often tumbled thru their targets. I suspect that whenever it tumbled, it tended to have the much-remarked "manstopper" effect, but when the pointy bullet simply curved, it probably had the same unreliable effects of the 158g LRN. Now, if the lead heavyweight hit bone, I think it was "all chirote" for the target.
Here are some additional results from today:
1. 200g results @ long rangeAttached photos of 50-yard target fired off of sandbags, prone, with the 358430 bullet in .38 S&W (vel. c. 630) from S&W Mod. 33. Bullet weight was 197-98g, cast .360 from 50-50 WW-Pb + tin. See also "better" target with .38 SPL @ 725fps, 192-93g, cast from straight WW, sized .358, fired from S&W Mod. 67.
I've plinked with autos at 75 yds before, but this is the first time I've fired a 50-yd. target with revolvers. Although my marksmanship is nothing to brag about, it would not have been fun to stand in front of the targets, especially since there was no keyholing at all. :-) I presume the difference in accuracy was due primarily to better fit, sights, weight of M-67, esp. since Mod 33's sights are nickel--a bit of a strain in sunlight.
I also fired .38 SPL into a live pine tree at 56 yards and my probe touched the base of the slug 1" deep, so the nose of the bullet penetrated about 1.8" into the wood, plus 1/4 to 1/2" of bark.
When I fired the .38 S&W slug into a different live pine tree at 58 yards, my probe found the base 5/8" deep, so the nose penetrated about 1.5" into wood, plus 1/4 to 1/2" of bark.
So, the .38/200 supposedly bounced off of an overcoat?
Anyone expecting his overcoat to stop this bullet had better be wearing blue tights with a big "S" on his chest! :-)
2. Water-filled milk jug penetration test with 150g LSWCBULLET: Lyman Ideal 360271 LSWC, nominally 150g, but 157g as-cast with 50-50+tin, sized .361
LOAD: 2.5g Win231. COL = 1.086" Crimped in crimp groove.
REVOLVER: S&W Mod. 33, 4" bbl.
CHRONO: LO 694.6, HI 713.7, AVG 703.9, ES 19.08, SD 6.85
POI @ 60' approx. +2"
PENETRATION @ 10 FT." (with both 4" and 2" guns)
a. Mod 33, 4" bbl: Shot chrono'ed at 690.3 fps, drove straight line thru all 6 jugs, halfway-exited #6 and buried up to shoulder in 2x12 stop board. Note deformed bullet nose in photo.
b. Mod 32-1, 2" bbl" Shot chrono'ed at 581.2 fps. drove straight line thru 5 jugs, cracked hole barely in front of #6, and stuck horizontally between #5 and #6. Note undeformed bullet nose in photo.
PHOTOS:
#017: Mod 67 .38 SPL with 50-yd. target
#018: Mod 33 .38 S&W with 50-yd. target
#004: Mods. 33-1 and 32-1 used for water penetration test of 150g LSWC, with recovered bullets at respective muzzles. Other cartridges shown, with nominal bullet wts. (L-R): Lyman 360271 LSWC 150g; Lee LSWC-TL 158g; Lee GB of Lyman 358430 LRN 195g; flat-pointed Lee GB of Lyman 358430 LRN 195g; RCBS 35-200 LFP, 200g.