Trail boss & Lee Dippers

[Hodr]

I am intending to load trailboss under some 400 grain flat nose copper jacket bullets in my 18" H&R 45-70.  I have dies for my Lee Press and brass clean and primed.  What I do not have is a conversion of grains of trailboss to lee dippers.  I called Lee and they are sending this by mail and will NOT tell me over the phone or email according to the lady I talked to. 

Loads considerd are 12 - 14 grains of trailboss for a nice slow easy to shoot load.  Any help will be appreciated as the range is open tomorrow and the day after.

blindhari

[MZ5]

I'm sorry that I don't know.  If you have almost any kind of light-weight-range scale (even a postal scale will work), you can calculate this for yourself if you like.

[quickdtoo]

Here's Lee's conversion chart. I would double check the calculations.

Tim

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/VMD'S.pdf

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=19884.0

[Hodr]

Thank You Thank You Thank you

blindhari

[shot1]

I would get a powder scale and weigh those charges. I still use a Lee dipper to dip the main charge and place into my scale and then trickle in to be exact. When I first got a powder scale and started weighing my carefully dipped and scraped off dippers full it scared me to death. There was as much as 1 gr difference with some powders. I guess that is the reason that most of Lee data that comes with their dies is pretty low on the powder charge.

[Hodr]

I have a lee powder scale.  I must confess though that I trust the scale less than I do the fixed capacity of the dippers.  My math I distrust even more.  I feel comfortable reloading only when i have a fixed load by volume that works well enough.  I freely admit that this means I must learn to use a sub-optimum loading.  My comfort zone shrinks the closer I get to max loads even established factory loads.(Buffalo Bore, etc)  I will use them but only if situation calls for them.  I have the irrational belief that underload MAY hurt firearm or shooter, however overload can destroy a gun and obtain a posthumas Darwin award for the overconfident.  

Thanks again for the help

blindhari

[MZ5]

If your methods work well for you, use them!  I would suggest cross-checking your specific lot of powder vs. what the VMD chart says, though.  I've found enough difference sometimes that, in a small pistol cartridge, I won't blindly trust the chart.  Trail Boss may be mild enough that this won't be an issue, though?

[gray-wolf]

I must learn to use a sub-optimum loading

If you are going to put the effort in to learn anything, why not direct it in a way that will advance your learning? If you don't have the time to do it right ? when will you have the time to do it over?

I must confess though that I trust the scale less than
I do the fixed capacity of the dippers

Without a scale how do you know what the capacity of the dipper is? or how your technique will effect it. Get a scale that is easy to use. A simple balance beam and a set of check weights. This will help with confidence and perhaps make you feel better about the whole proses.  No math involved--zero the scale on a level surface--check it with your check weights and you should be OK.

I feel comfortable reloading only when i have a
fixed load by volume that works well enough

 
Volumetric powder charges are best left to black powder loading--back to the scale--don't let it scare you.  The lee scale is not the easiest to use--back to a simple balance beam, RCBS, Hornady, Lyman,
Redding.

I have the irrational belief that underload MAY hurt firearm or shooter, however overload can destroy a gun and obtain a posthumas Darwin award for the overconfident. 

You are so correct, so why do something that will lean you more in the direction you do not want to go in.  Back to the scale--that darn scale it keeps coming up Eh.
  I would find a scale that I could afford and that is simple to use and sit with someone while you both looked over the directions.  kick the tires, look under the hood and don't let it defeat you.
  It is smaller than you and has less moving parts.

[stimpylu32]

I am intending to load trailboss under some 400 grain flat nose copper jacket bullets in my 18" H&R 45-70.  I have dies for my Lee Press and brass clean and primed.  What I do not have is a conversion of grains of trailboss to lee dippers.  I called Lee and they are sending this by mail and will NOT tell me over the phone or email according to the lady I talked to. 

Loads considerd are 12 - 14 grains of trailboss for a nice slow easy to shoot load.  Any help will be appreciated as the range is open tomorrow and the day after.

blindhari

I just did a quick test with a can of TB and my dippers .

3.1 CC = 13.2 / 13.2 / 13.3 grains

2.8 CC = 12.4 / 12.3 / 12.5 grains

2.5 CC = 10.3 / 10.4 / 10.3 grains

These were weighted on my RCBS digital scale

stimpy

[Hodr]

Thanks Stimpylu32
I got out my lee material and went over my powder scale for practice.  I also have 2 high end digital jewelers scales from former lapidary work.  I just seem to have a gnawing doubt with these items that does not occur when I am using a cubic capacity volume measure.  Some people don't like insects, arachnids, reptiles, heights or tight spaces.  Me, I distrust any machine subject to Murphy's law and failure points.  If I have a choice I use the tool with the least moving parts in an attempt to eliminate failure points.  That's probably why I like the H&R breech loaders as much as I do.  I buy factory loads simply because it makes me nervous to load that high.  I am at an age where shooting is for relaxation and comfort and not competition or survival.  When I do go hunting it is not really for the game but more for the places I go to hunt and the people I go with.  When I go out for targets it is with a 1/4 sheet of sheet rock and a target scribbled on with a grease pencil using stepped off (WAG) yardage.  For me it's a perfect day when everyone comes back with bragging rights on something.  I want most of my handloads to be like my favorite house shoes, a known quantity to me that I am comfortable with.  Factory ammo is for when I have to get serious and work at what should be fun.

Thank you all for letting me bend your ear,

blindhari

[PowPow]

Amen on simple machines: Lee Classic Loaders and Handi-rifles.  If it ain't there, it can't break.

[Autorim]

I agree that you need to buy a good scale. IMHO it is a basic tool to all reloading. Volumetric measuring is used in measures, but I would never use a measure or dipper without checking the load with a reliable scale.

Ken

[351 power]

i'm fairly new to reloading. but within my reloading likes/needs the dippers are very consistant. and i've trusted the information that lee provides with the dippers. the key for me is that volume in the case seems to be as important as the weight for accuracy and safety. so i stay within min/max loads. i can combine different dippers to go up and down the load range by .1 cc at a time. have always stayed about 2-3% below max. i know that bench rest guys may need more refinement but to them they probably have to re-evaluate between powder manufacture lots and stuff like that. COL has given me more options for accuracy improvement than anything else so far

[wreckhog]

I bought a used RCBS 505 scale on GBO for $25 to calibrate my $10 set of dippers.

[Huffmanite]

blindhari,  I use the 2.8 or 3.1 Lee dipper for Trail Boss loads in my 43 Spanish caliber Rolling Block for lobbing a 370 grain cast bullet downrange.  Hoot to shoot.  Load data for 45-70 (trapdoors) and the 43 Spanish are very similiar.  Since you are useing a H&R 45-70 rifle, I'd recommend the 3.1 dipper for a start load.  Neat thing about Trail Boss, Hodgdon states, "it's impossible to overcharge any cartridge with Trail Boss......impossible to get enough into a case to exceed maximum chamber pressures for that cartridge."  By the way, be prepared for a up to a 10" drop in POA for 100 yard targets.

If I remember correctly when I determined Lee dipper grain capacity with Trail Boss,  I used a digital scale, compared its readings to my Lee Balance beam scale and then rechecked with the Lee's VMD info.  So, the below should be fairly accurate.  Difficult to get same reading on a digital scale when checking charge dropped by a Lee Dipper. 

.3cc=1.38 gr          1.6cc=7.37       3.1cc=14.27
.5cc=2.3 gr            1.9cc=8.75       3.4cc=15.65
.7cc=3.22gr            2.2cc=10.13     3.7cc=17.04
1.0cc=4.6gr           2.5cc=11.51      4.0cc=18.42
1.3cc=5.99gr          2.8cc=12.89      4.3cc=19.8

[MZ5]

Blindhari, I'm glad you got the help you needed here.  I love this board!  I, too, like my Lee dippers, and I use them regularly.  Your Lee scale (same as I have) qualifies as a dependable, quality scale, and you know how to use it if/when you need to.  Use your dippers and have fun shooting!

[Hodr]

I called Lee and they sent me a new dipper slider no charge, still no trail boss listing.  Using Huffmanite's listings I marked the new slider to reflect that trail boss was 1/2 the weight of Herco by dipper volume, hedging on the low side.  I am back in business with a cardboard slider and dipper loading.
Thanks everyone for the help.

blindhari

[cbourbeau32]

I have a lee powder scale.  I must confess though that I trust the scale less than I do the fixed capacity of the dippers.  My math I distrust even more.  blindhari

I have a Lee powder scale and mine is right on the money. Every now and then I test mine with known weights. I have some 58 grain Hornady bullets for my 243 and each time I check my Lee scale against one of the bullets it checks out. JMO but I like my Lee scale. Not the fastest but accurate none the less.