Author Topic: 357 max loads  (Read 1232 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Nobade

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1927
357 max loads
« on: February 16, 2010, 01:57:23 AM »
This might not be the place to post this, but it does deal with NEFs so I thought I'd give it a go. Last weekend I was trying a 215 grain paper patched bullet in my 357 max handi rifle,and lemme tell ya what, it is working GOOD! Air cooled wheelweights, loaded over a stout charge of Lil' Gun, I was seeing groups at 200M less than 3 inches at better than 1850 fps. I hadn't gotten anywhere near this level of power/accuracy out of it before, it seems that the shallow NEF rifling likes paper jacketed bullets just fine. Next time I want to try it with 158s and see what kind of speed it can generate and still shoot well. Anyone else here play with paper patched bullets in their NEF? With these results I see no reason whatsoever for jacketed bullets any more.
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."

Offline OSOK

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 339
  • Gender: Male
Re: 357 max loads
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2010, 11:08:01 AM »
Not yet. I want to try some 500 grain paper-patched bullets out of my .45-70 some time. Go down to the Paper Patched forum and post there...but be warned, it is really slow there, nothing like this forum!!!
“A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.” Sigmund Freud

Offline 44 Man

  • Trade Count: (28)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2419
  • Gender: Male
Re: 357 max loads
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2010, 11:38:06 AM »
Paper patched bullets are intriguing, and a very neat subject.  But having read about them in several publications (usually written by Ross Seifreid), they look like WAY too much work to me!  That sounds like great performance, and I'm glad it works for you and you are pleased with the results, but I'm going to stick to regular cast bullets and alox lube.  44 Man
You are never too old to have a happy childhood!

Offline mechanic

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (32)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5112
  • Gender: Male
Re: 357 max loads
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2010, 11:48:50 AM »
Like 44 man, it's just way too much work for me.  I barely have time now for loading and shooting, and with more than acceptable accuracy with gas checked cast, I hang with it for paper.  I have some Rem. Cor locs loaded for game.  I'm happy.
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline Jacko

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 295
Re: 357 max loads
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2010, 08:22:22 PM »
Nobade I'm intrigued with the concept of paper patching, can you tell me what your .357 max cast bullets are sized at before and after patching. I'm also curious as to what mould you are using. Am in the process of getting my casting gear. Plan to give paper patching a real good try for my .357, .44 mag Lever rifles and for a 45.70 Handi I'm buying soon

regards Jacko
"To my deep mortification my father once said to me, "You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family."

                                                      Charles Darwin

Offline Nobade

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1927
Re: 357 max loads
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2010, 01:53:15 AM »
This particular bullet mould was made by BRP and throws  .351" with wheelweights. Then they're patched up with drafting vellum to .360" and run through a .359" Lee push through die. But special bullets are not required, any 35 cal. bullet cast pretty soft can be patched with thin paper and then sized, using wax for lube. I use the Lee 358-158-RF patched with tracing paper and sized to .359" as well, and it works just fine unless you harden the bullets. With paper patching there's no need for really hard bullets anyway, especially at the speed a 357 max will generate.

All the calibers you list should work great with paper patching. Depending on what throat you have in the 45-70 you might have to seat the bullet pretty deep in the case. But the SAAMI throat for the 357 and 44 mag are just perfect as is, a big funnel that lets you seat the bullet out pretty far. As for diameter, as big as will easily chamber is the way to go. Just make sure your belling die is big enough so you have adequate neck tension, but not too tight to tear up the patch.

As for tools, a paper cutter is a must. A hot plate for drying the patches really helps. A push through size die for sizing, and a cigarette roller for rolling them on. Pretty much all you need. No lubrisizer, no gas checks, very simple. It took me about a year to figure out how to really make it work, my first attempts were dismal. But I slowly learned how to make it work, and now I am seeing a whole world of shooting open up to me that was unavailable before. The performance these things are capable of is far beyond what is possible with grease grooved bullets. For example, I have finally gotten my 375 Taylor to throw a 265 gr. bullet at 2600 fps and hitting a 6 inch disc at 385M most of the time is not hard. This kind of thing was simply not possible until I learned how to paper patch properly. 
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."

Offline rdlange

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (52)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1122
  • Gender: Male
Re: 357 max loads
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2011, 03:25:01 PM »
OK, I posted to your latest PPB forum message, then found this telling me alot more of what I wanted to know.  I don't figure it's too much work, and we have to load 357 maxi anyway so why not play some more.

Reading on CB forum about sizing 35 rem bullets down enough to work PP  They should work for 357 also.  I got the 200gr mold anyway and can try it.

Be Well...
Think as if you LIFE depends on it... IT does..!  Be Well...

Offline Nobade

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1927
Re: 357 max loads
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2011, 04:52:23 PM »
Hi, saw your other post. This one is older and I hadn't done as much with the NEF as I have now, so details have changed a bit. The main thing is the load, I found I can't get enough Lil' Gun in the case to cause problems with PP bullets, so my velocities are up quite a bit and the accuracy has improved. And yes, you don't need a special bullet. Any soft cast rifle style bullet is a potential candidate, I like the Ranch Dog 190 and the RCBS 200 as well as this BRP one. The only special thing you need is a push through Lee style sizer the right size. Pick a paper you want to use, and wrap a bullet. Let it dry and see how much it added to the bullet. Now you know what size sizer you want. I.E. 9# onionskin adds .006" with two wraps. If I want a .359" bullet I want to size it to .353" first. Then patch and it's good to go. I have also started lubing the finished patched bullets with Rooster Jacket. It lets the loaded round chamber without tearing the paper and doesn't stick it to the bullet so you get a clean release and good confetti.

As for being a lot of work, I guess that is relative. I shoot because it is a fun hobby and I like to tinker with things to see what I can get them to do. I'm not being paid to shoot, so I don't care how much time it takes me to do something. It does take me about twice as long to patch up 50 bullets including cutting patches as it does to run them through the lubrisizer. But it's still not very long, and the ability to shoot nearly dead soft cast bullets faster than would be possible with jacketed bullets with better accuracy and no barrel fouling appeals to me. Plus it's entertaining to pull out some paper patched ammo at the range and have everybody scratching their heads since they've never seen that before. 
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."

Offline Lon371

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (53)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2486
  • Gender: Male
  • Why Not a Handi?
Re: 357 max loads
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2011, 10:17:42 PM »
Quote
ability to shoot nearly dead soft cast bullets faster than would be possible with jacketed bullets with better accuracy

What kind of velocity and accuracy are you getting? Also how do they do on deer sized game?
 
Lonny

Offline Nobade

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1927
Re: 357 max loads
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2011, 03:29:20 AM »
Well, that certainly depends on what firearm you are using. But in the case of the 357 max Handi rifle, it's pushing 215gr. bullets slightly faster than 2000 fps and shooting groups around 3 inches at 200M using a 4X scope. (hardly a benchrest setup) As for what it will do to a deer, I haven't shot one with this particular load but a putty soft 35 caliber lead bullet with a pretty large flat on the front going that fast should have a pretty dramatic effect when it hits a critter.
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."

Offline gendoc

  • SWAMP GROCERIES RULE !!!
  • Trade Count: (329)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3957
  • TRUTH AND HUMOR, thatsa what i'm talk'n bout
Re: 357 max loads
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2011, 05:37:10 AM »
[quote author= 
 a putty soft 35 caliber lead bullet with a pretty large flat on the front going that fast should have a pretty dramatic effect when it hits a critter.

 
that isa shur-nuff fact !!!! ;)
sea-ya.....
in tha meen time, i'm wait'n for tha  7th trumpet ta sound !!!

gotta big green tractor ana diesel truck, my idea of heaven's chasin whitetail bucks and asa country boy, you know i can survive............

hey boy, hit this mason jar one time...
burn ya lil'bit did'nt it. ya ever been snipe hunt'n ?  come on...

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.

Offline cwlongshot

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (158)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9907
  • Gender: Male
  • Shooting, Hunting, the Outdoors & ATVs
Re: 357 max loads
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2011, 03:15:46 PM »
Well, that certainly depends on what firearm you are using. But in the case of the 357 max Handi rifle, it's pushing 215gr. bullets slightly faster than 2000 fps

I can only imagion the pressures this loading develops... A "bit" over book I imagion.  :o ::)
 
CW
"Pay heed to the man who carries a single shot rifle, he likely knows how to use it."

NRA LIFE Member 
Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline Nobade

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1927
Re: 357 max loads
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2011, 01:13:48 PM »
Judging by the rounded primers and how easy the cases fall out of the chamber, not too bad. Now I sure wouldn't try that stunt with a groove diameter cast bullet or even worse a jacketed one! I'd imagine you would have to pound the cases out with a cleaning rod.
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."

Offline goofyoldfart

  • grumpy old fart as well as goofy old fart.
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
  • Gender: Male
Re: 357 max loads
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2011, 04:44:31 AM »
Hey NoBade, are you the same Nobade as at over @ castboolits.com? God Bless to all.


                    Goofyoldfart.






Offline JMcDonald

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 136
Re: 357 max loads
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2011, 05:53:53 AM »
Judging by the rounded primers and how easy the cases fall out of the chamber, not too bad. Now I sure wouldn't try that stunt with a groove diameter cast bullet or even worse a jacketed one! I'd imagine you would have to pound the cases out with a cleaning rod.
Actually, this makes a lot of sense!
 
So the paper is shredded / falls off the bullet just after it leaves the barrel?

Offline Nobade

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1927
Re: 357 max loads
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2011, 02:57:55 AM »
Hey NoBade, are you the same Nobade as at over @ castboolits.com? God Bless to all.


                    Goofyoldfart.

Yep, same guy. I hang around there quite a bit too.
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."

Offline Nobade

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1927
Re: 357 max loads
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2011, 03:00:30 AM »
Judging by the rounded primers and how easy the cases fall out of the chamber, not too bad. Now I sure wouldn't try that stunt with a groove diameter cast bullet or even worse a jacketed one! I'd imagine you would have to pound the cases out with a cleaning rod.
Actually, this makes a lot of sense!
 
So the paper is shredded / falls off the bullet just after it leaves the barrel?

Yep, if your load is working right you get a shower of fine confetti at the shot. If the pressure isn't high enough the paper comes off in chunks and usually accuracy isn't great. The patch needs to release cleanly and not stick to the bullet or it won't shoot.
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."