Author Topic: The 223 Short project. (Read 75117 times)

briannmilewis · « **on:** February 17, 2010, 06:01:10 PM »

Along with a couple of other GBO members (Larry and Jed M) we have started work on the 223 Short project. For those who missed previous posts, it is a 221 Rem Fireball case (1.4") re-formed and trimmed to 1.125". It is a modern case design that fits exactly between the case capacities of the 22 Hornet and 221 FB, 10% more powder than the old case designs of the 218 Bee and 22 Rem Jet.

While we can trim the prototype brass any way we want, I am thinking one step ahead to when we want to form and trim 100 or more cases for testing. What do you think is the best/fastest/easiest/cleanest/most accurate way to trim the excess .275" from the neck when dealing with 100+ cases? Is using a modified 221 FB Form and Trim die easier than using a regular case trimmer set up? Or is there another option? I obviously do not have much experience trimming cases.

Thanks again...Brian

necchi · « **Reply #1 on:** February 17, 2010, 06:16:35 PM »

The Lee trim gauge for 223, $5 with the Lee Cutter and holder $5,,you''l need the drill chuck,,$4?
Then gind/file/cut the trim gauge stud to the length you need. Very precise, inexpensive, cut's the same every time

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=107333
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1261362310.3920=/html/catalog/casecon.html

DANNY-L · « **Reply #2 on:** February 17, 2010, 11:19:05 PM »

a 3way cutter they are more expensive but they take care of three steps all at once and do a nice clean job, plus you can use the cutter for other brass. Saves alot of time & easier on the hands & wrist.

gray-wolf · « **Reply #3 on:** February 18, 2010, 01:43:44 AM »

Cut the bulk off with a jeweler's saw or a hack saw and the final cut with a case trimmer.
Don't be heavy handed and STAY SHY of your finish line.

GW.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #4 on:** February 18, 2010, 01:58:14 AM »

I just did a simular project. I wanted large primer pocket 454s so i trimed down 460 smith brass. I used a power rcbs trimmer. I wore out two cutting heads doing 200 cases so id have to say youd be better off with a trim die and a hacksaw to start with and then finish trim them with your brass trimmer. One hint if you use a trimmer dont be afraid to put some pressure on it. My nieghbor is a machinist and he came over and told me the problem i had was somewhat due to me putting them in the power trimmer and letting it to its own thing. that doesnt put my pressure on the cutting head. Toward the end i would bear down on the handle a bit and the last cutter i had seemed to hold up

Autorim · « **Reply #5 on:** February 18, 2010, 02:54:02 AM »

Just curious here. What is the purpose of the experiment? Seems like a lot of work. Why not just download the .221? It's not a large case.

mbopp · « **Reply #6 on:** February 18, 2010, 03:12:05 AM »

When I was making 357 Herrett brass I chucked the cases in my case trimmer. I took the handle off it, put a hex-head screw in, and spun it with my cordless drill.

gray-wolf · « **Reply #7 on:** February 18, 2010, 03:49:09 AM »

If my math is correct??
If we trim .003 off a normal case when doing trimming in a normal Way,
275 divided by 3 = about 91__________91X275=about 2,500. Did I do that right ??
If I did then you would be doing the same as trimming about 2,500 cases,Humm (or close to it)
-------------------------------------HACK SAW----------------------------------
-----------------------------trim die and a hack saw------------------------------

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 18, 2010, 06:36:09 AM »

I have formed a bunch of 223 into 221 FB because I could not get 221 cases at the time. I ended up using a trim die to push back the shoulder and a Dremel tool to cut it short, then I used a powered case trimmer to finish it up. I would guess that you do not have a trim die for your wildcat. What ever you use, make sure it is powdered. Taking that much off with a hand cranked trimmer will not do in short order - believe me; I know. I have seen where you can get a small cut off saw. Cut it just over length and the again trim with a powdered case trimmer. One thing I have learned over the years is...making cases from some thing else is a pain in the neck. Some are worse than others, but all are bad. I will buy ready made cases every time, unless I just can't get them. I just formed some 22BR from Norma 6BR cases. Not only do I have to neck them down, but I had to trim .040 off the neck as well. Norma BR brass has a longer neck than Remington BR brass. I did 400 of them. I used a powdered RCBS trimmer for mine. It would be much easier if I could have bought the cases already done.

As for making a 223 "short" - to each their own. It is not for me, I have a 22K Hornet and 221 Fire Ball. I do not feel there is enough of a gap to have to fill...but there is nothing like saying I got some thing you don't or just the fun of developing some thing new. Good Luck and Good Shooting

flashhole · « **Reply #9 on:** February 18, 2010, 02:40:39 PM »

I reform 223 to 221 and I use a mini tubing cutter to cut the long neck.

briannmilewis · « **Reply #10 on:** February 18, 2010, 03:02:06 PM »

Quote from: Autorim on February 18, 2010, 02:54:02 AM

Just curious here. What is the purpose of the experiment? Seems like a lot of work. Why not just download the .221? It's not a large case.

I wanted something physically in-between the 22 Hornet and the 221 that was a modern case design. It will be interesting to see how it works out, and the cost of trying is pretty low. The fun of a wildcat without the great risk and expense that often comes along with wildcats. We can stop at any time if it doesn't look promising and will have wasted few dollars and hours. Ultimately, if it proves useful, we will find a way to use cheap 223 once-fired parent brass to keep the cost of materials low, likely annealing the cases before forming the cases using a muscular press like a Redding Ultramag press. I like the idea of "...a small cut off saw. Cut it just over length and the again trim with a powdered case trimmer." or the Form and Trim die.

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 18, 2010, 11:16:45 PM »

Just some thing to think about - When you form your case out of 223 brass, you are going to end up with necks that are very thick. You will have to ream the chamber neck to a very over size condition and use the the thick necks as is or if your chamber neck is of normal conditions (some where around .250" or so), you will have to turn the necks down so they will fit the chamber. I know that I have to turn down necks for my 221 FB when making cases out of 223 brass to fit a normal chamber. You may even have to ream the necks as well as turn them down, if a doughnut forms inside the base of the neck. Just some thing else to think about - thick necks are not conducive to accuracy. Too much variation in neck tension when they are thick.

Just curious - Are you going to have a custom reamer made? Or are you going to short chamber a 221 FB reamer? If you short chamber a 221 FB reamer you may have trouble with the base being too big on the case to fit the chamber. The parent case; 221 FB or 223 has some tapper to it and if you short chamber it, you may find the base too big to fit the chamber. Are you going to have custom dies made? How long is the neck going to be - same length as a 221 FB or 223? If a custom reamer is made - I like a longer neck, more like the 222 Remington, but that would cut into your case capacity if you keep your OAL of the case to 1.125". If you gave it a longer neck with an OAL of say 1.25" - OH well just thinking, doesn't cost me any thing.

Steve P · « **Reply #12 on:** February 19, 2010, 05:42:09 AM »

Use a mini cut-off saw from Harbor Freight. Best $19 you will ever spend. I have done 1000s of wildcat brass on one and have been very pleased. It comes with a little vise. It is easy to set up a little jig so all of your brass comes out same length. My brass was a little easier than yours. Most of mine is based off 30-30 which has the rim. A few custom washers and away you go.

Check one out. Photo is attached. 100 cases, less than 15 minutes.

Steve

briannmilewis · « **Reply #13 on:** February 19, 2010, 09:57:47 AM »

(I am going to get Tim or other moderator to move this from Reloading to Wildcats, is where it should have been to begin with.)

The 221 FL die has been cut down and opened up, so the base and the neck is still 221 FB spec and the case taper is whatever it needs to be. The thick neck is an obvious issue from the outset, it will be interesting to see how we solve it. Here are Jed's notes from the first pass.

"Hi Brian, I cut and ground the sizing die this morning and it came out great !
The problem now is the neck diameter, the Lee die sizes the neck to .236 with the neck sizing stem removed.
I only ran 1 221 FB case thru the die and it came out with a perfect body and shoulder but the neck had a crease in it. This is because of the slightly thicker brass the neck is now made from, ( was the shoulder and part of the case body prior ).
Before I do anything else to the die I must see a friend of mine that is a diemaker and may be able to get me a carbide reamer to ream the neck area to .250 dia.
I will try it on my shortened 223 die that I cut down before and see how it works before reaming the 221 FB die.
I am sending a picture of the 223 short next to a 221 FB so you will see what it looks like. Jed"

Here is the photo that goes along with Jed's report.

I love the ideas and experience you folks are bringing to the party. The mini tube cutter looks like the ticket to me for volume work.

Larry is going to create a reamer just for a couple of chamberings from our final quality sample brass.

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 19, 2010, 10:23:16 AM »

Are you going to grind the front portion of a 221 FB reamer down to ream your chamber? If you do, then I think you will solve any base size problems. I have had issues like the wrinkled neck before. You may have to put an air relief hole in the shoulder of the die to help. I also found that when you form the case, to use a slow, smooth and even stroke as you can to help keep from wrinkling the shoulder/neck with a good case sizing lube. It aids in the flow of brass so it does not wrinkle.

BTW the 221 FB case looks huge in comparison

.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 19, 2010, 02:29:21 PM »

Brian

I was running into that same problem when forming 22 rem jet cases .

I found that if I did the final step in 2 passes , it did away with the neck folds , I would size about 1/2 way , then re-lube and finish form the case ,It went from a rate of 20% case loss to maybe 2% by doing it that way , good thing that once fired 357 mag cases are CHEAP .

Got any idea what the final case cap is going to be for this round ?

richard

briannmilewis · « **Reply #16 on:** February 19, 2010, 04:06:14 PM »

Richard: Do you use the two or three step Redding forming dies for the Jet or just a light hand and a FL or a form and trim Jet die?

In Lee Reloading parlance, the 223 Short will be pretty close to 1.11cc, 22 Hornet is 0.79cc, 221 FB 1.43cc, 218 Bee and 22 Rem Jet are supposed to have 1.00cc. To get the capacity I was looking for I took the .01cc steps between the Hornet and the FB (64), and 1.11cc fell right in the middle (.79+.32). A design goal is to be able to do minor adjustments to existing dies and cheap brass to get the final case. I want a solid 200-225 yard round with a modern case design, more legs than the Hornet, as solid as the Bee and Jet in that range, but less power than the 221. I don't really like the idea of downloading the 221, just a personal feeling, downloading a 221 feels like needing a 3lb hammer, but buying a 5lb hammer and hitting lightly.

I would really like to settle on a case forming process that uses once fired 223 cases as a source. New 221 brass is x2 the cost of new 223 brass, so I see us using the 221 as source brass while we develop the round. Once we have the specs finalized I want to work on the issue of cheap case forming. If I win the lottery and the round ends up being a go, I'll just order up 100k custom cases so I could sell them cheap to anyone who wanted to adopt it. It would be nice to be able to buy 223 Short cases for $20/100.

Keeping the case length to 1.125" means I could have four chamberings in 224 based on the 223 that represent largish performance steps: 223 Short - 1.125" and 1.11cc, 221 FB - 1.40" and 1.43cc, 222 Rem - 1.70" and 1.68cc, and finally 5.6x50 Magnum - 1.97" and 2.0cc. It is fun to muse about this stuff.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 20, 2010, 04:43:38 AM »

Brian

I use the 3 step set , yet even with them , the final forming step with the FL sizer would want to fold the necks in some , so I started to do it in 2 passes and that cured the problem , it was just trying to move too much brass at one time .

stimpy

briannmilewis · « **Reply #18 on:** February 20, 2010, 11:49:30 PM »

Do you anneal the cases before or after forming?

fireball168 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 21, 2010, 09:19:10 AM »

Here's how I shorten them up, when they need more than .050" cut off.

I find or order a Wilson case holder that closely holds the parent case, with at least as much as I want to cut off protruding out of the neck.

Give the case a good smack to seat it in the Wilson case holder.

Give the case a scratch at your approximate finish length with your calipers - or do it ahead of time on your surface plate and height gauge.

Chuck the case holder up in the lathe chuck(your tubing cutter would work here too, the case holder will hold it square to the vise jaws) - advance a end mill that's larger than the neck diameter with the tailstock.

Takes all of 20 seconds to lop .500" or more off a case.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 21, 2010, 11:53:08 AM »

Quote from: briannmilewis on February 20, 2010, 11:49:30 PM

Do you anneal the cases before or after forming?

Brian

I do it before , tried it the other way but had way to many split and folded over necks as the brass was just too hard to work with , and when your going from .358 I.D. to .224 I.D. , thats a bunch of brass to move to places it doesn't want to go to .

stimpy

briannmilewis · « **Reply #21 on:** February 21, 2010, 01:21:27 PM »

fireball168 - that is the kind of detail that makes our future efforts much better than they otherwise might be.

briannmilewis · « **Reply #22 on:** February 23, 2010, 06:13:20 AM »

Jeds Update:

Brian, So far, so good.. I have opened up the neck of the sizing die to .250. Along with using Lee sizing wax I am able to get 100 % of the cases to form without creases, even commercial
223 cases.
My next issue is cutting and trimming the necks.
I have followed your post on GBO about removing .275 off the necks of the 223 short.
My problem is I have a Forster Original case trimmer with collets # 2, # 3, # 4 and pilots for just about all calibers I reload for except 22 cal.
What I think I will do is to take one of my collets and open the smallest base diameter to grip a 223 case with a boring tool, this will not affect any of my other cartridges I reload for as the smallest is the 357 mag rim @ .440 dia.
I can make a neck pilot for 22 cases so I should not need to buy anything.
The casings now come out of the die with a neck O.D. of around .249 and a I.D. of about .217.
I think once they are trimmed down and I run the sizing stem thru them they will be just fine.
One problem with Lee sizing stems are that they are made to be slightly adjustable for depriming depth by moving the stem up or down and then held at that setting by a collet type nut.
The stem is acually a little smaller below the area of where the nut grips it so as to prevent breaking the deprime pin if it doesnt line up with the flash hole in the case, the sizing stem is made to slip under heavy pressure until it reaches this smaller diameter then it is free toslide up and keep you from damaging the stem.
The reason I mentioned this is that by removing .275 from the die length I don't know yet if it will still grip the stem in the larger diameter top portion of the stem since we will have to raise its position to the new case we will be deprimeing.
I dont see any big problem there that can't be overcome.
I notice that Lee doesnt make a collet neck die for the 221 FB but they do make it for a 223 Rem,
I have shortened these dies before for my own wildcats and it is qute easy to do and think once we get things trimmed and sized you may what to get a neck sive collet die and I will modify it to work with the 223 short as it will prolong the life of your brass by alot.
I think for you to cutoff and trim necks on new formed brass you should get some sort of abrasive wheel tool like a dremel or like the Harbor Freight mini saw in the GBO post. Then to finish trim maybe a Lee case trimmer shortened to your needs might be the least expensive methood ?
I will keep you updated every few days on the progress, I should have a bullet seated by the end of this week. Jed

jedman · « **Reply #23 on:** February 23, 2010, 08:33:32 AM »

Brian, Looking at the picture of that HF mini cutoff saw, what might work would be to take a square block of steel, alunimum, PVC , about 1 inch square and drill a hole thru the center slightly larger than 1/4" maybe a F drill, then follow that with a 3/8" dia. drill and stop just a little short of all the way thru the block so as to leave a sholder stop from the point of the drill and the long neck of the cartridge would stick out the end of the block.
This block could be clamped in a position in the mini saw to where you would insert the brass case with the long neck into the block and with your finger tip holding the brass from moving, then cut the excess neck off. When the saw has stopped you should be able to push the case back out the opposite way with just your finger tip and the whole process should take but 10 saconds each ?
I have a wildcat that is formed on 30-30 brass and I need to cut off about 1 " of excess neck after forming. I use a hardwood block with 4 holes inline that I insert the brass into and the case rim holds them at the correct alignment , then I run them thru my tablesaw with a 80 tooth carbide saw blade ( slowly ) and it trims the necks to within .010 of finish length, then I just push them back out of the block with my finger and have 4 cut to length in about 30 seconds total to do 4.
Just another idea to ponder or improve on

Jed

briannmilewis · « **Reply #24 on:** February 27, 2010, 09:34:35 AM »

Here are Jed's latest results. He asks a question about neck thickness as he only has experience with larger calibers so we need a hand here. LaOtto222 has an opinion already about turning inside and outside of neck so the case will fit a standard 223 family chamber, and thick necks are not conducive to accuracy. How much they effect accuracy I would like to know. So how about we turn the necks inside and out to match a 221 Fireball neck dimensions?

Brian, Sorry for the slow progress, I have had a lot of other things to tend to the past few days so I didnt have much time to work on the case forming.
I did get the bullet seating die cut down and it works fine. At this point I suppose we need to decide if we are going to keep the case neck as it comes from forming without outside turning or if the neck is to thick and should be reduced.
As shown in the picture with a .224 bullet seated the OD of the neck is about .257 so we have a neck thickness of around .0165.
I will not advise you as to if this is OK or not because most all of my wildcats are of larger bores and I don;t know if that is a factor to consider or not.
I have seen alot of cartridges that have similar neck thickness and work well, such as 308 Win and 7X57 Mauser both normally have thick case necks.
Maybe you could post a question on the widcat forum as to opinions on this. I can turn some for you if you would like, I do it on my lathe and it is not much work at all.
As you can see in the pic the 223 short is next to a standard 223 Rem, it really is a cute little cartridge.
If we ever quit with the snow storms around here I can get back to work on it Jed

223 Remington 223 Short

briannmilewis · « **Reply #25 on:** February 28, 2010, 09:10:20 AM »

Jeds latest update. I am blown away that Jed has managed to form 223 Short cases from 45 223 cases without a failure.

I have asked him to form some 221 FB cases so we can compare the neck thickness to the reformed 223 cases. New 223 cases are $20/100 and new 221 cases are $45/100. I expect that the 221 cases will form better with less neck thickness than the 223 cases.

Hi Brian, I ran 45 223 cases thru the die and got 100 % of them to form proprerly.
I think we should keep the necks approximately the same as other 223's also as you suggested.
Most have about .012 neck thickness, I personally don't like inside neck reaming to reduce the thickness.
I have done it before and my results were that I ended up with variable neck thickness and not concentric with the OD.
I beleive that if we turn the outside down to about
.247 and we will be right at the same dimention as the parent case was.
If you end up using a Lee collet sizing die it touches only the neck portion and has a mandrel down thru the case and is centered by the reprime pin being in the flashole during the sizing process.
Once you have fired your brass for the first time in your new chamber it should be very true and concentric.
If you want me to turn the necks let me know and when I get them done I will send you 40 - 45 finished cases to get started with.
I think once you have about 100 cases it should last you for at least 1000 shots if you are neck sizing them. Jed

223 Remington 223 Short 221 Remington Fireball

briannmilewis · « **Reply #26 on:** March 02, 2010, 07:00:48 AM »

Jed did some neck thickness research and found a good example to compare our situation with. here it is...

Brian, Since Larry has offered to make you a reamer to the dimensions of your prototype casing I would try leaving the case as it comes from your sizing die.
Reading from a older Hornady manual I have they say the 5.6 X 57 RWS round somewhat popular in Europe has a very thick neck, possibly as much as .030.
In there testing of the round they state that the thick neck did not pose any problems except that loads had to be kept within 3 grs. of max to keep pressures hi enough that the neck expanded enough to seal gases from blowing past the neck. They state that lighter loads were accurate and uniformity was not affected when there was powder residue present on the exterior of the case.
They show a maximum neck OD of .280 at the case mouth and a OD of .285 at the start of the shoulder. That is way thicker than the .253 -.260 that we have.
I know what you are saying about keeping it simple, if you can eliminate turning or reaming. Jed

Am I wrong to think that a Lee Factory Crimp would solve potential pressure issues?

briannmilewis · « **Reply #27 on:** March 02, 2010, 11:18:00 AM »

Jed's latest correspondence...all good news...

The cases that I have sized and trmmed to length are right at 1.125 , that should be the same as the 221 FB.
If Larry makes the reamer , he will most likely make the neck length a little longer maybe +.010 - .015 so you should not have to worry about trimming the length of your cases if they grow just a little.
Your Lee die set came with a 1cc measure and I took a scoop of Lil Gun powder and dumped it in a 223 short case and it comes up to fill the case about half of the way up the neck. So it has a comfortable 1 cc of powder space, Jed

Jed: If we take a nominal bullet that extends .430" beyond the end of the Fireball case, and reduce the case length and add the bullet length, that would mean we had on overall cartridge length of 1.555".

How do we determine maximum cartridge length?

Also, it looks like L'il Gun will measure out 1.11cc+/- to the top of the case then. We know we can compress L'il Gun and get lower power rounds. So a 218 Bee and a 22 Rem Jet should fill to the top of their cases with a 1cc scoop of L'il Gun.

Can anyone confirm that for me?

briannmilewis · « **Reply #28 on:** March 02, 2010, 01:14:00 PM »

From Jed:

Brian, I have a 218 Bee fired case and compared it to the 223 Short they seem to hold the same amount of powder, both of them hold 1 cc up about half way in the neck. I would think you could start with loading data from the Bee as it is a moderate to lower pressure round. Jed

From Jed:

Brian, Shortly after I sent you the pic of the 218 Bee I got to thinking somethings wrong.
A 218 Bee has a much more sloping sholder and does not look like the case in the pic I sent.
I looked at it more carefully and it must be a Ackley Bee or something like that.
The headstamp reads 218 Bee but when I measured it from the top of the rim to the shoulder the Bee is suppose to be .800 this one measures .950 a whopping .150 longer in body length and has a much sharper shoulder than the Bee. Thats why it holds as much powder as the Short, It has been blown out to a wildcat dimension. Sorry if I had you worried. Jed

Here's a pic of the two side by side.

223 Short 218 Ackley Bee

The Bee case is .347 at the base, compared to the 223 .376, the Bee case length is 1.345 compared to the Short 1.125. The Bee case looks huge in comparison.

Well folks, it looks like we appear to have met some major design goals:

1. A modern case design alternative to the 218 Bee and 22 Rem Jet with a 11% increase in case capacity to 1.11cc.
2. The case can be formed easily from inexpensive 223 Rem cases.
3. The knowledge of how 221 FB dies are modified to work with this round.

Also:

We should be able to use 218 Bee load data to begin with.
We will use L'il Gun powder to begin with.
We will use Small Pistol Primers to begin with.

What we don't know yet:

1. What will our maximum cartridge overall length be?
2. What will be the best and maximum bullet weights for the 22 WMR barrel twist rate?
3. Whether or not we can use a centerfire SB1 receiver?

That's all I can think of right now.

Bull45cal · « **Reply #29 on:** March 16, 2010, 04:53:16 PM »

Brian,

I want to use your cartridge in a savage model 10. The thought would be a switch barrel for my 223 F-Class rig. I would go for the thicker neck, and have the reamer cut the neck larger to compensate. The less work you have to put in to the cases, the better. The only problems I see with that are neck concentricity and tension consistency. Keep up the good work. I really want one.

Thanks,
Shane