Author Topic: The 223 Short project.  (Read 75142 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline briannmilewis

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1017
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 223 Short Project
« Reply #60 on: June 14, 2010, 03:03:17 PM »
I just want to say thanks to all the folks that have contributed ideas who are not on the project team.

We are close to our first round of testing and I also want to say a big thanks to Jed, Larry and Shane for their work on the project team.

It has been pretty smooth sailing and each member of the team has very generously donated their expertise, time and any needed supplies to keep the project moving along.

Can't hardly wait for the first load testing.

Thank you, thanks, and Way to Go :D :D :D

Brian

Offline briannmilewis

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1017
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #61 on: June 14, 2010, 04:07:44 PM »
Jed has supplied about 40 finished 223 Short cases to Shane.

Here is Jed's case prep procedure that Shane will follow if he wants to make more brass.
-----
Brian,

    Just thought I would chime in on this.  In the case of forming the 223 short, the case forming is the easiest part of the whole process.  Forming either the 223 or the 221 case is about the same it doesn't take a lot of force to form them since I started using LEE sizing wax.  Other brands of case lube didn't work good at all, with the LEE lube just a tiny little bit works wonders.
   In making up 223 short brass ready to load the first time is time consuming, but if the collet die idea works out well it should be easy after that.
  Here is the process I have used to make the brass so far,
Starting with the FL sizing die , remove the neck sizing stem and collet nut, run all your lubed cases thru the die that way, this leaves the long neck.

Cut off excess neck with the mini saw to within .010 of finish size.

De burr the inside of case neck, so trimmer pilot can enter neck.

Run all of the cases thru the case trimmer to finished length.

De burr inside and outside of the neck, lube inside of case neck.

Reinstall the neck sizing stem into the FL die and resize all the cases again, this sizes the inside of the neck to approx. .223 I.D..

At this point you are ready to load them for fire forming,  So to end up with a finished fire formed case you have a lot of work involved, but with a wildcat you can expect that.     

Jed

Offline trotterlg

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (36)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3978
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #62 on: June 23, 2010, 08:12:40 PM »
What is happening???????????  We should be seeing holes in targets by now.  Larry
A gun is just like a parachute, if you ever really need one, nothing else will do.

Offline briannmilewis

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1017
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2010, 05:23:53 PM »
Shane is working on fitting the first 223 Short barrel.

He is having a very bad time getting the barrel nut loose, I have heard they can be very stubborn.

In Shane's own words:

"Yep, I'm using the oak blocks myself, with a steel c-channel top plate, 1/2" threaded rod and using a ratchet to tighten, but it won't hold tight though.  As soon as I can get some time, I'm going to try one last holding method (using the vent holes in the side of the action) to secure it from rotating.  If that don't work, I'll brake out the new die grinder and cut the stupid thing off."

Brian's Comment: Anyone got any additional suggestions that might help?

I hate mechanical "bad hair" days almost as much as I hate technology "bad hair" days! ;D

Offline trotterlg

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (36)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3978
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #64 on: July 04, 2010, 08:11:29 AM »
You need to put a 1/4 inch cap screw in the oak block for the recoil lug to hold against, that will keep the action from truning.  Just drill and tap the oak block, put some epoxy on the threads and screw in a 1/4 20 half inch cap screw.  Larry
A gun is just like a parachute, if you ever really need one, nothing else will do.

Offline briannmilewis

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1017
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2010, 08:39:43 AM »
We are waiting for our first range report from Shane.

Update: Just decided we are buying a Savage Edge in 223, and Larry will set back and rechamber for our 223 Short...hopefully all this will happen in a couple of weeks...and I get to do some testing.

As the barrel will have to be removed from the rifle to send to Larry, I will go back to my original plan of getting a H&R 22 Hornet and H&R 22WMR or 22LR barrel for the donor. I will deal with barrel fitting if need be. I do not have the gear or a place to work in order to remove a Savage barrel.

Also just queried Larry about the maximum cartridge length according to his reamer specs. after re-reading Page 2 posts.

Offline briannmilewis

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1017
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #66 on: August 09, 2010, 12:53:59 PM »
Shane has started load development. When Shane is ready to share the first round of results we will post them here.

Check back in a week or two, or if you have contributed to the thread, you will see an entry in, "Show new replies to your posts." when Shane's data gets posted.

Please remember this is an all voluntary effort by Shane and the rest of us. We do not apply pressure or dictate deadlines. We all have other lives, and we all understand that a neat little wildcat project is so not on everyone's "hot list" in relation to their day to day and family obligations.

It has been a while coming, and we have a ways to go, and I am most indebted to Shane, Larry and Jed for their unselfish willingness to jump aboard the project and they are the ones who are really "making it happen". In this project lives the GBO spirit of helfullness and selflessness.

Brian

Offline briannmilewis

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1017
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 223 Short project - results, results, results...
« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2010, 03:47:10 PM »
Dateline August 23rd, 2010...

Shane tested his second batch of loads for the project and the details are below. As his Chrony was not up to the task, I will not post data until Shane processes his and is happy with the Chrony reliability. In a word, some really excellent accuracy, here it is in Shane's own words:

Hey Guys,
 
I got some more time this weekend to do some load development...I can tell you, some of my observations. 

(1) BRASS FORMING:  ;D I tried making some more brass, since I only had 22 pieces to use (18 Lake City, 3 221 FB, and 1 Win. 223).  So I broke out the Full Length (FL) die, and sized nine pieces of 221 FB, with no failures, and three new Win. 223 (with one failure).  The first Win. 223 full length cartridge cracked when I sized it.  I used the Lee resizing lubricant, but it cracked in the shoulder area anyway.  So, I tried cutting the brass down before sizing.  I tried two more cases that way without a failure, but it did leave some very deep groves (or maybe tiny wrinkles) in the shoulders. 

(2) FIRE FORMING:  ;D ;D With the newly formed cases, I began fire forming, and working up the load at the same time.  I used CCI 500 small pistol primers, and started with 9gr. of Lil’ Gun, under a 55gr Hornady V-Max bullet.  Upon stepping up to 10gr., I discovered primer cratering.  It seems that 9.5gr. is max with the pistol primers.  I have read that the pistol primers are softer, so that would make since. 

(3) LOAD WOKUP:  ;D ;D ;D Once I had the brass fire formed, I began working up the load with CCI BR-4 small rifle primers.  I started with the 9.5gr and worked up to 12.5gr.  I had primer cratering at 12.5gr, so I backed down, and settled on 12gr. for my max.  The chrony didn’t like the shade I was under (my first early morning testing), and didn’t give me consistent readings...I also worked a load with Varget and the 55gr V-max bullets prior to this one. The velocity wasn’t good, but the accuracy at 50 yards was promising.  I’m going to look into that further, at a later date. 

(4) ACCURACY TESTING:  ;D ;D ;D ;D I didn’t get to shoot across the chrony later on Sat, but I did get to shoot down the range.  Friday, I noticed that my scope looked crooked, and set about to determine why.  Saturday afternoon, with the scope adjusted, checked and rechecked, I zeroed it in at 175 yards.  I then shot out to 250, and on to 300.  Three shot “sighting” groups have been consistently sub MOA.  Everything I know about Savage/Stevens bolt rifles, tells me all the credit belongs to Larry for that part.  As Jerry Teo says, (paraphrase) if the action is in good shape, the accuracy is in the barrel.  So, congratulations Larry, you have produced what is proving to be a finely smithed barrel.

(5) MORE ACCURACY TESTING:  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Just to give you a picture of the accuracy that I’ve been seeing.  I was shooting a 6” round steel spinner at 300 yards.  I had to guess at the drops because the chrony wasn’t working right.  I fired two shoots and didn’t have a hit or even so much as a puff of dirt.  I determined that I must have been shooting high, so I dialed down what I thought it needed, and bam I hit the spinner.  The next shot connected with the spinner again and knocked it over (these are more like 22 LR spinners).  When I got down there, the spinner had two heavy dents in the top right of the round steel.  I set it up, and made a half MOA down adjustment.  I fired my last two rounds and watched in the scope (since this things just shakes a little when you fire) as the bullets hit.  When I got down there this time, I found two more dents slightly to the right of dead center, and only ¾” apart.  The two previous shots were about 1-¾” apart.  I don’t want to be overly optimistic, but it’s getting hard not to.  I’m very excited about the capabilities of this round.  Thank you guys for letting me be apart of this project.  I will get everything typed up and ready as soon as I can.

Offline Bull45cal

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 41
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #68 on: September 06, 2010, 06:44:37 PM »
Alright,

     Finally got out to the powerlines today (got corn all over my 750 yard range at home).  I didn't get any targets set-up, but I did shoot out to 400 today.  I didn't feel like hiking the 45-60 degree grades to set-up the targets (didn't take the 4 wheeler with me).  I'm lazy in my old age, and just getting up the hill with my gear was enough for me today (I really need to get into shape...something other than round that is).  Here are a couple pics of the gun.  I still have alot of work to do on the stock, but it's functioning well.  I did have a hiccup (I can make the sound, but can't spell it) with the 221 FB brass today.  I'm going to try something, but if it don't work, I'm going to be calling on the team for some advise.  


It was a beautiful Labor Day!


My set-up


Mean looking ain't she.  Thanks Larry!


Whoever took this pic, ought to be shot!

Offline briannmilewis

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1017
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #69 on: September 24, 2010, 07:41:43 PM »
I just love the noise those porcelain thingies make when they get a 22 bullet at 3,000 fps...sounds like the  Photon Torpedoes from Star Trek, really cool... ;D ;D ;D ;D

Seriously, I have had a little money setback so I am not progressing with the handi version of the 223 Short. I'll keep you posted when I get started on that, and hopefully Shane will have more info for us by then.


Offline Bull45cal

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 41
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #70 on: September 25, 2010, 05:20:16 AM »
Hey Brian,

     Sorry to hear about your setback, but completely understand.  I didn't think I was ever going to be able to get started in this thing at one point.  I do have a little more to report, informally.  I did some testing with H4198 powder the other day, and this is what I found.  

I couldn't get the velocities I thought I could, when you compare our cartridge to the 218 Mashburn Bee.  I couldn't get as much powder into the case.  The H4198 is a long grain powder, and doesn't compact very well.  IMR 4198 might be a little different, and that is what was used on the Mashburn Bee.  I found that the 40gr bullets never got even close to the 3100fps mark, before I was compressing loads.  I need to check my notes (not here with me right now), but I think that was aroung 14+ grains of powder.  I tried the 55gr bullets, and at 2680, it wasn't getting any better velocity than the Lil' Gun.  I did achive 2200 fps with 12+ grains of H4198 under a 75gr Hornady A-Max.  I was achiving wonderful accuracy with that load.  If you run the numbers, you'll see the 223 Short with this load, duplicates the velocity of a 75gr. A-Max from a 223 Rem. as it crosses 300 yards.  This would allow practice out to 300 yards, and get the same results as you would be getting at 600 yards with the 223 Rem.  Today, I'm loading up some 55gr Varmint Nightmare bullets I got from Midsouth.  At less than 9 cents a piece, they have much potential as a low cost practice projectile.  I'm not getting the results I had hoped for on the opposite end of the velocity spectrum.  At the current cost, I'm paying $9.31/box of 50.  So, it is well within the cost of 22LR match bullets, but personally, I would like it to be less.  I have run the numbers, and if I where to order the components for 4500 rounds at one time, I could drop that cost to $7.55/box of 50.  As time goes on, I just may do that.  I'm sure I could run through 4500 rounds in the off season, and when I'm shooting at varmints.  Well, got to run.  More information to come later.

Offline jedman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (24)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 921
  • Gender: Male
  • Retired and livin the dream !
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2010, 03:29:25 AM »
     Shane,

  Something to consider,  Your barrel has a 1 in 7" twist and the Mashburn Bee may have had a 1 in 14' barrel ?   The fast twist does reduce the velocity some, but how much I don't know.
  AA 1680 is a dense powder and may allow you to get alittle more in the case ?           Jed
Current handi family, 24 ga./ 58 cal ,50-70,  45 smokeless MZ, 44 belted bodeen, 44 mag,.375 H&R (wildcat),375 Win.,357 max, .340 MF ( wildcat ), 8 mm Lebel, 8x57, .303 British, 270 x 57 R,(wildcat) 256 Win Mag, 2 x 243 Win,2 x 223 Rem. 7-30 Waters &20ga.,

Offline chipsoles

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #72 on: September 29, 2010, 08:13:10 AM »
Hello Guys,
 Congratulations, on the current state of your project. I got here by looking for "223 short" on the web. I have made a draw die (20deg.), and a shoulder bump die (30deg.) so far. My goal was 1.00" oal, instead of your 1.125" oal. I got the 20deg. shoulder angle from a conversation at Redding, several years ago. It is supposed to reduce wrinkles, and collapsed cases, by reducing friction. With a good polish, finished off w/
Simichrome, or one of that type, it really reduces the force needed.
 Brian, good luck to you. The next step is, what to do with it? Informal BR; Short, light universal farm rifle w/ synthetic stainless combo. Toys!
 I have found it hard to feed a truly good rf rifle, to perform on a steady basis, from lot to lot. Now, every vendor is on backorder to the general public, and probably feeding the high volume bench rest shooters.
This is the type of utility that has kept the Hornet & Bee alive over all of these years, with the rimmed case handicap in some situations. Looking at my notes, try the Hornady 55 gr. #2260 SXSP. These shot 1/2"
groups in a 22-250 back in 1965, off a shot bag filled w/ sand. They produced "small cloverleafs" for three guys, over H322 in a 22PPC Cooper 21 that I had sold. I do not like them for shipping to SD to shoot pds
due to the soft nose.
Best regards,
Bob

Offline briannmilewis

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1017
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #73 on: October 04, 2010, 03:28:11 PM »
Bob...thanks for chiming in in on this. Larry will be putting together a stubbed 223 Short barrel in a Rossi 20g barrel for me when I send the 20g barrel to him, to test this out on the budget side. Of all the research I have done, it appears lubes like you recommend in conjunction with a Redding Ultramag press will be the as good as it gets combo for reforming 223 brass, which is the original design goal - really cheap parent brass. However, for simplicity, to begin with for me, I will start with 100 x 221 FB cases and a regular press and lubes, as much as it pains me to pay $44/100 :-[.

I adjusted the cartridge trim spec to 1.135" based on Jed's original trim length samples of 1.125".

I have not got exact case capacity of L'il Gun yet, I believe I may have under estimated the capacity and it is closer to Hornet/Bee rather than exactly between Hornet and 221 FB, I will find out soon enough. What I wanted was a true 225 yd coyote round, rather than downloading a 221FB.

Hopefully Shane will be providing some more data soon, and my testing will start with accuracy, chrono will come much later in the game for me.

Offline Bull45cal

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 41
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #74 on: October 19, 2010, 05:00:19 AM »
Brian,

     I still don't know what the maximum case capacity is for Lil'Gun in the 223 Short.  I do have max loads in my rifle.  I think these loads are not truely "max" loads, because of a premature primer cratering problem I believe I'm encountering.  But, this is what I'm getting. 

223 Short, 1 - 7 twist barrel @ 23.5" long, CCI BR-4 primers, Lake City 223/Rem 221 FB/Win. 223 brass, Hodgdon Lil'Gun powder

40gr Hornady V-Max over 12.7gr. = 3184fps

55gr. Hornady V-Max over 12.3gr = 2730fps

You don't have to worry about the 225 mark Brian.  I was swinging a 6" dia. steel spinner at 300yrd near about every time with the 55 gainers.  I also was powdering the 40 grainers on a piece of 6" angle iron sticking up at 400 yards a few weeks back.  Coyotes better pray for wind, cause without it, death comes on swift wings from the 223 Short.  Back to the 40 grainers.  What was neat was watching the bullets powder when the hit the angle iron at 400 yards.  With an 11-12lb gun, the recoil from the 223 Short is just a shake of the scope.  You can easily spot your own shots at 200 yards.  It is so sweet!  I was going to take the barrel off for hunting season, but I can't bring myself to give up the fun.  I may take a few deer in the head under 200 this year.

Later

Offline briannmilewis

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1017
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #75 on: October 19, 2010, 01:57:56 PM »
Shane:

That is great.

Glad to hear the fun factor is very high, as I believe that is one of the things that makes unusual cartridges interesting to people.

Your figures indicate about 900ft/lbs of muzzle energy. Remington show a 50gr 221 Fireball about 3000fps muzzle velocity to have downrange energy of about 400ft/lbs at 300 yards and 300ft/lbs at 400 yards.

Can anyone tell me what the trajectory graph would most likely look like?

I think 300-400ft/lbs is plenty enough to do a clean coyote and wild dog/dingo kill.

Any clue to the primer issue yet?

The performance seems way beyond what I expected.

If we have the powder capacity of the Hornet and performance of a Fireball, then what do we have?

I am not complaining, a design goal was for the efficient use of powder, and that seems to have been achieved.

I know you have not been loading for accuracy per se, but how has it been? Six inches at 300 yards is 2MOA, that is within a coyote vitals zone.

I am very pleased on the project's progress, thanks to enthusiastic assistance like yours, and the skills that Larry and Jed bring.

I know Larry wants to get a slow twist barrel into test as soon as we can, and I hope to be able to assist with that shortly.

Thanks again.

Offline Bull45cal

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 41
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #76 on: October 20, 2010, 07:08:25 AM »
Accuracy hasn't been my main concern, as I'm still tring to get a very consistant load.  I have seen repeatable 1-1.5" groups at 200 yards.  I can't say that I'm getting consistant .5 - .75 MOA groups, because I get fliers on a regular basis.  But, consistant 400 yard hits on a 6" piece of angle iron, tells me the potential is there.  I really think the neck tension is the key.  If I could get a few things straightened out, I think she'll be a true .75 MOA gun (meaning 95%+ of 5 shot groups would be under .75 MOA), with average groups around the .5 MOA mark.  Pretty good considering!  Gotta run!

Later.

Offline Bull45cal

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 41
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #77 on: October 20, 2010, 08:03:49 AM »
Brian,

    Below is the trajectory table I copied from JBM. 

Shane

Manufacturer:    Hornady    
Description:    Vmax (Litz)
Caliber:    0.224 in    
Weight:    40.0 gr
Muzzle Velocity:    3184.0 ft/s

Range    Drop    Windage    Velocity    Energy
(yd)    (in)    (in)    (ft/s)    (ft•lbs)
0    -1.5   0.0   3198.8   908.7
25    -0.8   0.0   3076.1   840.3
50    -0.3   0.1   2955.6   775.7
75    0.0   0.2   2837.3   714.9
100    -0.0   0.4   2721.4   657.7
125   -0.3   0.7   2608.1   604.1
150   -0.9   1.0   2497.4   553.9
175   -1.9   1.4   2389.5   507.0
200   -3.2   1.8   2284.3   463.4
225   -5.0   2.4   2181.9   422.8
250   -7.2   3.0   2082.3   385.0
275   -10.0   3.7   1985.1   349.9
300   -13.2   4.5   1890.1   317.3
325   -17.1   5.4   1797.3   286.9
350   -21.7   6.4   1706.5   258.6
375   -27.0   7.6   1617.7   232.4
400   -33.1   8.8   1530.9   208.1
425   -40.2   10.3   1446.3   185.8
450   -48.3   11.9   1364.0   165.2
475   -57.6   13.6   1284.5   146.5
500   -68.2   15.5   1208.3   129.7
525   -80.2   17.7   1138.5   115.1
550   -94.0   20.0   1092.2   105.9
575   -109.6   22.5   1062.0   100.2
600   -127.1   25.0   1037.1   95.5
625   -146.6   27.6   1014.7   91.4
650   -168.2   30.3   993.9   87.7
675   -192.0   33.1   974.2   84.3
700   -218.1   36.0   955.4   81.1
725   -246.6   38.9   937.2   78.0
750   -277.6   42.0   919.7   75.1
775   -311.2   45.1   902.6   72.4
800   -347.4   48.3   886.0   69.7
825   -386.4   51.5   869.8   67.2
850   -428.2   54.9   854.0   64.8
875   -473.1   58.3   838.6   62.4
900   -521.0   61.9   823.4   60.2
925   -572.2   65.5   808.7   58.1
950   -626.7   69.2   794.2   56.0
975   -684.6   73.0   780.0   54.0
1000   -746.1   76.9   766.1   52.1


Manufacturer:    Hornady    
Description:    Vmax (Litz)
Caliber:    0.224 in    
Weight:    55.0 gr
Muzzle Velocity:    2730.0 ft/s

Range    Drop    Windage    Velocity    Energy
(yd)    (in)    (in)    (ft/s)    (ft•lbs)
0   -1.5   0.0   2740.4   917.0
25   -0.6   0.0   2654.2   860.2
50   -0.1   0.1   2569.5   806.2
75   0.1   0.2   2486.3   754.8
100   -0.0   0.4   2404.6   706.0
125   -0.5   0.6   2324.5   659.8
150   -1.4   0.9   2246.1   616.0
175   -2.8   1.3   2169.2   574.6
200   -4.6   1.7   2093.9   535.4
225   -6.8   2.2   2020.0   498.2
250   -9.7   2.7   1947.4   463.1
275   -13.1   3.3   1876.1   429.8
300   -17.1   4.0   1806.0   398.3
325   -21.8   4.8   1737.0   368.4
350   -27.2   5.7   1669.2   340.2
375   -33.4   6.7   1602.5   313.6
400   -40.4   7.8   1537.0   288.5
425   -48.4   8.9   1472.7   264.8
450   -57.3   10.3   1409.7   242.7
475   -67.4   11.7   1348.2   221.9
500   -78.6   13.2   1288.3   202.6
525   -91.2   14.9   1230.2   184.8
550   -105.1   16.8   1174.5   168.4
575   -120.7   18.8   1126.0   154.8
600   -138.0   20.9   1093.0   145.9
625   -157.1   23.1   1069.4   139.6
650   -178.1   25.4   1049.5   134.5
675   -201.0   27.8   1031.6   129.9
700   -226.0   30.2   1014.8   125.8
725   -253.2   32.7   999.0   121.9
750   -282.5   35.3   983.9   118.2
775   -314.0   37.9   969.3   114.7
800   -347.9   40.6   955.1   111.4
825   -384.1   43.3   941.4   108.2
850   -422.8   46.1   928.0   105.2
875   -464.0   48.9   915.0   102.2
900   -507.8   51.9   902.2   99.4
925   -554.3   54.8   889.6   96.6
950   -603.6   57.9   877.4   94.0
975   -655.7   61.0   865.3   91.4
1000   -710.6   64.2   853.4   88.9


Offline Bull45cal

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 41
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #78 on: October 24, 2010, 05:09:53 PM »
Brian,

     More info for you.

I tested the 223 Short with Benchmark powder yesterday.  Just as Larry (or was it Jed) said, it is too slow for good velocities, but accuracy just may be another story  I haven't done a full accuracy test yet, but here is what I did yesterday.

55gr. Varmint Nightmare bullets over 13, 13.5, 14, 14.3, & 14.5gr of Benchmark.  Top velocity was right at 2500fps.  Not nearly what Lil' Gun will do with the same bullet weight.  So I moved on to the 75gr A-Max bullets.

75gr. Hornady A-Max, over 12.5, 13, 13.5, & 13.8gr of Benchmark.  13.8grs of Benchmark with 75gr A-Max seated right at the lands, is a compressed load.  Anyone what to determine what precentage?  13.8grs registered just over 2100fps.  I loaded up 5 rounds for more testing, and got 2077fps average.  Even with the velocity difference, you could cover all nine shots with a dime a 50 yards.  As best I could tell, all but one of the five shot, 13.8gr, group with into one hole.  I had a twich bout time I squeezed the trigger, on the last one, that push it out a 1/4" to the left.  I know it is only 50 yards, but I sighted in at 100 as the sun was setting, and the two shots were in the 1" bulls eye, and only a 1/4" apart.  That was good enough for me, and no need to fire anymore at 100.  Next I fired a round out to 200, to verify drops, and rung the 6" steel.  I then chambered another round and adjusted the parallax on my scope.  When I fired at the 300 yard steel target, I heard the slightly delayed ping of the bullet impacting the fixed steel plate.  Upon inspection, my drops where close enough for hitting coyotes out to 300, so I packed up and headed to the barn for some more loading.


I feel this is a great place to inform you of the state of the brass I have been using. 
     After 9 (+/- 1 may have missed some documentation) loadings I have lost had to toss 5 of 11 Rem 221 FB cases.  3 were from loose primer pockets, and two from cracked necks.  Also 10 of the original 18 LC peices of brass have failed.  I started with 32 (18 LC, 11 221 FB, 3  Win) pieces of good brass after I culled the cases that had been over stressed from the forming process.  Now I'm down to 17. So that would be a failure rate of 47% after 9 firings.  The interesting thing is, how almost all of them fail at just about the same time.  The LC didn't expreience any loose primer pockets, but were culled due to neck or shoulder fractures. 
     Also, another interesting note, the cases don't stretch much.  I haven't trimmed any cases since their original trimming.  That includes two full length sizings after the inital forming.  I also ordered a 0.002" undersized mandrel for the Lee collet die.  This has helped a problem I was having with the 221 FB brass.  It seems the brass is thicker at the base of the neck than at the mouth of the case.  It appears to me that the afore mentioned problem coupled with the lack of uniformity of brass thickness in the neck area, means we need to explore inside neck reaming.  To that end, I'm working on making a reamer.  It should be done by the end of next week.

More infromation later, I really need to get to bed.

Later,
Shane

Offline briannmilewis

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1017
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #79 on: October 24, 2010, 10:40:54 PM »
Thanks again Shane, great work and great information.

After how many firings was the bulk of the failures?

With a tight chamber and moderate loads, how many reloads could we expect as reasonable?

Larry, could the shoulder and neck splits in the 221 Brass be a result of our generous neck spec on the reamer in order to deal with the different parent brass outside neck diameters?

Could the LC brass failures of the same nature be due to overworked brass? Same failure, two different causes?

From previous post: We know the neck thickness Larry has measured for specing the reamer are .255" for the 221 brass, and .260" for the 223 brass. The beginning chamber neck diameter is .261".

What would be an ideal reamer spec for an outside neck diameter? Is the .261" reamer neck spec for the .260" 223 brass close to ideal? Would a .256" reamer neck spec be better for the .255" 221 brass?

I know we can reduce brass working by using step down intermediate dies to go from 223 Rem to 223 Short...something we wanted to ultimately avoid.

It is my hope to shortly have a Redding Ultramag press to test brass forming, so I can supply Shane and relieve him of that drudgery.

Ideally wouldn't it be best to take a fire-formed case, seat a bullet and get custom dies made?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Anyone, weigh in.

Offline jeepmann1948

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (67)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1422
  • Gender: Male
  • San Angelo, Texas
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #80 on: October 25, 2010, 02:24:02 AM »
I always anneal  the case necks first, then  inside neck ream before final sizing on my wildcat cases and benchrest stuff  . My first batch of 22 cheetah cases have over 20 reloads on them and still going. Good luck on the project.
"it ain't what you shoot em with......................
  it's where you hit em "

Offline Bull45cal

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 41
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #81 on: October 25, 2010, 07:53:13 AM »
test

Offline briannmilewis

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1017
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #82 on: October 28, 2010, 11:53:24 AM »
I am looking at this data based on my original design goals = always a dead coyote at 225 yrds if hit in vitals. A dead coyote 100% of the time when shot in the vitals needs 300 ft/lbs on target according to sources I have researched.

Lets look at Shane's data at 225 yards.

Manufacturer:    Hornady    Vmax (Litz)   0.224 in    40.0 gr   3184.0 ft/s

Range Drop   Windage    Velocity    Energy
(yd)     (in)       (in)    (ft/s)            (ft•lbs)

225    -5.0      2.4           2181.9   422.8


Manufacturer:    Hornady    Vmax (Litz)   0.224 in    55.0 gr   2730.0 ft/s

Range Drop   Windage    Velocity    Energy
(yd)     (in)       (in)    (ft/s)            (ft•lbs)

225    -6.8      2.2           2020.0   498.2

We have plenty of energy at 225 yds for both and are way above what is needed.

What I ideally would like is to be on target at 225yrds with only a -1.5" MPBR drop.

Currently the 40gr is between 150 and 175 yds for the -1.5" drop, and the 55gr just above 150 yds.

What I can live with as an initial goal of -3" MPBR drop at 225 yds too, which is certainly OK for coyote.

The 40gr -3" drop is around 200 yards and the 55gr -3" drop is around 175+ yards.

Is there any fast way to address the drop, or is it just experimentation with bullet weight, powder charges and powders?

Shane knows what he is doing, just wondering if anyone knows any tricks to make time and materials savings while we get to our goals.

Offline chipsoles

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #83 on: November 02, 2010, 03:07:39 AM »
Hello Brian,
 The shortest path, will be through the use of computer software like "Load From A Disk", or others that
have been touted on the various forums. You can plug in any combination of grain weights, & BC's, to
watch the velocity, and drop numbers. The next step is to see if the "magic" bullet will shoot small groups, or dense patterns.
 As an example, a 50 gr. w/ a high BC may have a higher velocity than the 55gr., and a better retained
velocity than the 40gr., at 225yds. for a lower mid range.
 In reading your test results, there is a mention of fliers. I know also that you have your mind pretty well
set on the case design for this project.
 My suggestions to improve this project as far as accuracy, and case life are concerned:
 The 223 Rem. is basically a machine gun cartridge, designed to kill or wound men at 100-200yds.
 1) The case neck needs to be lengthened to aid in bullet alignment. Compare the length that you have
     to the length of the 22-250, 22 PPC, 222 Rem. and others that are noted for consistency, and
     grouping ability.
 
 2) Again look at the "winners", as far as shoulder angle is concerned. For some reason, unknown to me,
     most of them are 28-30 deg. The exception being the 222, which has a neck length of .313"!
     I am sure that there are writings on the web that describe the theory.

 3) Lastly, a standardized neck dia. is needed to align the bullet to the bore, to create consistant
     tension on the bullet, and reduce the overworking of the thin necks.

  When I get a new batch of brass, I uniform the primer pockets, ream the flash holes to a uniform
dia., and deburr the inside edge of the flash holes. I do not weigh brass, but they are all of the same lot. "They" say it helps with accuracy. Sometimes I rebarrel a rifle because a factory barrel will not perform as well as needed, but fliers have never been an issue for me.
 To do what you are about, at your ranges, I would want to be able to shoot 10 into a 3/4" group @
100yds. Those are my opinions from 50yrs. of reloading, shooting and selling lots of good rifles.
Regards,
Bob
         

Offline briannmilewis

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1017
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #84 on: November 03, 2010, 01:02:51 PM »
Bob:

Thanks for the valuable and detailed input. One of the reasons I throw these things out for comment and review, is I know there are folks that have been there and done that on GBO.

Based on your and other input about minimal neck length, the next chambering will use a 222 Rem neck spec., here are both current and future case drawings.



As always, I appreciate your input, it will help make the project a success.

Offline Bull45cal

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 41
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #85 on: November 04, 2010, 02:05:12 PM »
Bob,

      Thank you for your highly valuable input.  Your years of experience show in your post.  I'm glad a man with your experience and expertise is so willing to add helpful information to this type of conversation.  Even though I do not have nearly as much experience or knowledge, I do totally agree with your assessment.

Brian,

     One thing to consider in the new drawings you put forth.  Lengthening the neck by 0.09" you have reduced the case capacity dramatically.  I don't know off the top of my head what that equates to, but off the top of my head, I know it equates to more drop.  We can't have everything.  If we want more accuracy, we have to sacrifice something.  Here, in the latest design change, you are sacrificing velocity.  You will also have to toss simplicity of case prep., and a wide range of material selection (case and bullet types/brands).  I feel the fliers come from the lack of uniformity in the case neck thickness, wide range of brass types (brands and once fired vs. new vs. brass with unknown firings), and lack of proper case prep. equipment.  The neck length could very possibly be a contributing factor, but I feel it is not as important as the other factors I have just described.  This is my opinion in this specific instance.  I believe if Bob was to purchase a new barrel from Shilen chambered in this round, with the same specs the first barrel was chambered with, he would have much better results than I have.  With the quality tools Shilen has with which to fabricate a new barrel, and the experience and techniques that Bob applies, I can't help but believe that fantastic results would be had.  Fliers would be nil, and tight groups would abound.  You get out what you put in, and Bob puts in far more than we have.  Just my two cents.

Offline chipsoles

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #86 on: November 08, 2010, 05:28:02 AM »
Hello Shane,
 You have started from scratch, with a new case design. I would say that you have accomplished some
very good results. This is what any type of R&D work is about. Someone needs to start, in order to get
results that can be looked at, and then the hard work of sorting out what is an asset to the goal, and what is a hinderance. It should be a time of dealing with facts and results. Nothing that is reasonable,
should be off-limits.
 I would agree that the mongrel brass, accompanied by the lack of standardization, in your neck dias.,
and wall thickness are very important to accuracy, and fairly cheap to remedy. Your concern about the loss of case capacity, due to lengthening the neck is well founded with a case of this capacity. A way to get part of the additional length, with a reduced volume deficit, is to increase the shoulder angle. You would get slightly more that .03" additional length, by going to 30 deg.without pushing the shoulder back. I was told in '65 by the gunsmith that built my first 22-250, not to worry about the maximum velocity column in the reloading hand books. He said it didn't matter how fast that I missed the target.
He had a way with words.
Regards,
Bob
 
 

Offline Bull45cal

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 41
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #87 on: November 09, 2010, 05:25:52 AM »
He said it didn't matter how fast that I missed the target.
He had a way with words.


So do you Bob, and I can tell you listened to him very well.  Thanks for the input.  Personally, the velocity drop wouldn't be a problem for me, since I'm looking for a slower round.  I dial in all my elevation changes, but Brian was voicing his concern about drop, and I wanted to remind that loosing case capacity was going to create even more drop.  I'm not so sure, that you need a .313 neck for a 40gr. V-Max bullet.  The bearing surface of the bullet isn't even that long.  I'll measure the 55gr V-Max bullets, but I don't think their bearing surface is that long either.  Now, the .313 neck length would be superb for my 75gr. A-Max bullets.  Lengthening the neck would work much better for my application, but Brian isn't trying to make a match grade practice rifle. 

Thanks Again,
Shane

Offline chipsoles

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #88 on: November 16, 2010, 04:00:32 AM »
Hello Shane,
 Your issues about the loss of case capacity, and velocity are important in a project of this type. The only true way to know the future, is to live it.
 What may be benificial, would be to design several reamers that address all of the issues that have been brought up. Then prepare to rechamber the barrel while the results are recorded. Once you have the data to compare, the "best" may be easier to determine. You can then return to what works.
 Start with a reduced shoulder length, and longer neck, then move the shoulder forward to observe any
changes in accuracy, and velocity. Lastly the neck could then be extended, with an increase in the overall case length. This is just food for thought.
Regards,
Bob
 

Offline Bull45cal

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 41
Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #89 on: December 08, 2010, 03:44:44 AM »
Thanks again Bob,

     Your extensive knowledge and experience are very evident in your post.  Thank you for your input, and hopefully you will continue to contribute to the education of us budding enthusiast.  If there is a positive change in financial situations, I would love to explore the possibilities with this round.  As for right now, I'll have to keep perfecting the case prep procedures to try and maximize what we already have.   

Thank You,
Shane