Author Topic: The 223 Short project.  (Read 75150 times)

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Offline stubshaft

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #120 on: March 10, 2012, 08:43:58 PM »
It looks like a Mashburn Bee to me.  Ackley didn't do too much with the Bee, he was more interested in hot rodding the hornet.
If I agreed with you then we would both be wrong.

Offline briannmilewis

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #121 on: March 22, 2012, 04:03:57 PM »
Tony:

I will take you up on that for the standard version, and I take up Torp for the rimmed version.

I did the FN /223 Short Bolt Thrust comparison:

223 Short BT = 55,000 x ((.378 x .378) x 0.7852) = 7858 ft/lb

5.7 x 28 BT = 50,040 x ((.307 x .307) x 0.7852) = 3703 ft/lb

The 223 Short BT is 212% of the 5.7x28 BT.

So the FN 5.7x28 pistol could not handle the 223 Short Bolt Thrust just with a larger bolt head.

The action would have to be re-engineered.

Offline briannmilewis

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #122 on: March 22, 2012, 04:40:14 PM »
The Aussies rebarrel their .310 Cadet rifles to .222 rimmed.  Since the .22 LR Martinis are made on the same size action but with 50+ years newer steel, I don't see any reason not to use the new .223 short in Martini action.

If you want one to try, you can work on mine...  ;D

Tony
I redid the 223 Short/303 British comparison and it showed the 223 Short is only 96% of the 303 BT. The 223 Rimmed has to use 55,000 psi max pressure too, so they are safe conversions.

Offline geezerbiker

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #123 on: April 02, 2012, 10:40:43 PM »
Isn't the .222 Rimmed the Aussies rebarrel Martinis to about the same pressure as the .222 Short? 

Anyway I'm looking forward to the rimmed version being ready.   After all these years of collecting dust, I'm looking forward to getting my British Martini shooting again.

Tony

Offline briannmilewis

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #124 on: April 10, 2012, 06:57:58 PM »
I think around 55k...

Offline briannmilewis

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Re: The 223 Short project - Looking for Encore Pistol Rechamber Volunteer
« Reply #125 on: April 20, 2012, 10:32:41 AM »
Is there any GBO member out there prepared to have their Thompson Encore pistol barrel rechambered to 223 Short, and do some load and range testing this season?

The barrel would need to be 22 S, L, LR, or 22 Mag to clean up properly with the rechamber.

Our team member who developed the reamer can do the rechambering if I ask nicely (preferred), or you can do it yourself if you have some experience reaming barrels. I would not recommend this rechamber being the first DIY for anyone.

We will provide ready to load brass and loan you a set of dies.

There has been so much interest in chambering a pistol in the 223 Short that I thought there is no harm in asking.

If there are no takers, it will be a later part of the project.

Let me know.

Offline briannmilewis

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #126 on: July 21, 2012, 04:48:28 PM »
Well, this is the kind of thing you don't want to report about a project that was moving along quite nicely.

As you may recall, Shane had established some baseline performance for us through his F Class Target Rifle, using the 55g and up bullets, and he was going to persue his final testing this season and report in. Larry had found a really cheap 22 cal barrel with a maybe 1:12 twist (if I remember) and he was going to get the reamer back from Shane and chamber it so I could buy a Stevens or Savage, and do all the light bullets testing - 35g-46g this summer.

Unfortunately Shane has not lived up to his part of the deal where he sends Larry the reamer and me the dies. We have spent considerable patience on this, taking into account Shane had a bad motorcycle accident and some recovery time, but to no avail.

I have finally got my finaces in stable order for the rest of my life, so I will purchase a custom reamer, and get a custom die set, and send the reamer to Larry and find a good everyday Savage or Stevens. with luck, I may be able to do all my testing before the first snow and be able to publish by the end of the year. I have www.223short.com up and running with a summary and some specifics about the project, but don't go there this weekend, they have had some difficulty they are working on trying to bring up all my websites...without much luck.

After the project, I plan on processing a few thousand once fired 223 cases so they become once fired 223 Short cases. With the reamer available, if you want to do it yourself, or take it to your gunsmith, and I will be able to sell fully prepped brass for $20/100. I'll order a number of cudtom dies sets to lower the price, so I can loan them or you can buy them, i won't mark them up. 2013 is going to be an interesting year for the 223 Short...maybe that will be the year of the pistol.

Thanks for following us.

Offline L

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #127 on: July 30, 2012, 05:32:21 PM »
Yo, i just came across this (pm sent) and i would like "in" is this possible?

I can obtain a Stevens 200 action relativity easy, but would prefer to use my Encore platform if possible. *edit* if it is more affordable....

on the Encore, it is a rifle (sorry no pistol data from me at this time) and i am unsure as to what barrel would be appropriate for the conversion.  the factory rimfire barrels for the Encore have offset bores to use only one firing pin.... i would like to avoid buying a brand new 400$ barrel....for the Encore anyway.

let me know

thanks

L

ps i am in Idaho

Offline briannmilewis

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #128 on: August 01, 2012, 04:01:08 PM »
Nathan:

Let me check with Larry to see if Shane has returned  the dies and reamer.

Do you do your own Savage/Stevens barrel fitting/replacement?

Brian

Offline briannmilewis

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #129 on: October 31, 2012, 05:34:11 PM »
Well I got 100 223 Rem PRVI cases for 223 Short forming.

I am working on ordering two reamers, one for the chamber and one for the dies we will modify.

I bought a Lee Deluxe 223 Rem die set, but I will replace it with a 221 Fireball set, and I also have a Redding 221 FB Form and Trim die for the initial case forming, so we don't have to dismantle a FL die for the forming.

I bought my little cut-off saw from Harbor Freight, and I am in the process of making a jig so we can trim the cases quickly.

I had been relieved of my cash problems but are still dealing with other expenses so I can only splurge once a month...my youngest son left home for the last time Monday, and stole my shooting cash ($1800) on the way out.

Unfortunately Shane has not contacted us for ages, he ended up with the dies and the reamer that Larry made for the project, so we are doing over having the reamers made.

Due to the above $ loss, I have to sell my unfired 7mm-08 Handi and my unfired UC22 Beretta Semi-Auto pistol to finance the rest of the 223 Short project. Sacrifices must be made.

Offline briannmilewis

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #130 on: November 18, 2012, 01:34:31 PM »
This is the 223 Short V1 Final Design from which we are getting a production chamber reamer made. Also getting a die reamer made if we need that too. I will send the  chamber reamer to Larry so he can chamber the slow twist barrel (1:12 I think) he has had hanging about for the best part of a year.

I will match the barrel up with a Steven's rifle, also part of our "poor man's" design goals. At some stage after we complete development, I will get a Savage short action with Accutrigger and Accustock, just to see what we can squeeze out of the Short in the 35g to 46g bullet range. I am counting on the Short not to be a barrel burner as we use only as much powder as a 22 Hornet.

As we made all our brass to date from different head stamps, the outside neck diameter ranges from .256 using 221 FB brass to .258, .2605 to .261 using other types. We had to settle on the largest neck OD to meet our design goal of catering to those folks who pick up range brass or use mil. surp. and want to make 223 Short cases themselves - yep, this is a poor man's wildcat, that is for sure.

Also, once the form & trim die is cut down and reamed, as soon as I get my first batch of 223 Shorts completed, I will get 100 x 22 Rem Jet cases from PRVI (they are cheap and a lot easier to form than 357 Mag cases) and use the same dies to form the 223 Short Rimmed cases. It'll look like the 218 Bee but dimensions will be quite different. We will have to get another reamer made to account for the rim recess, so my thinking is that will come in the new year.

I already have our first volunteer tester lined up for the rimmed version, in a converted Martini that was re-barelled for the 22 LR way back when. They kept the same action as the 303 British it was originally designed for. A few posts back you can see the bolt face thrust calculations we used to determine that the 22 Short Rimmed will be safe in the old rifle.



I appreciate your continued interest in the project, and look forward to being able to post the final development figures, and then continue the thread with folks that want to try the short themselves and want to report back to the thread. The beauty of trying the short using a barrel blank chambered to size, is that if you don't like it, your barrel can be rechambered to a 221 FB or 222 Rem or 223 Rem etc. This makes it a very safe wildcat to explore.

We will also get a number of extra form and trim dies modified for the Short if folks don't want to modify their own dies. The reamers will be available for rent thru GBO H&R Forum, and I may send a couple to Clymer's so they have them on hand as well.

I have got over any feelings of proprietorship in the design. I feel honored that after I designed it, other GBO members took up the challenge to get it well and truly prototyped and tested. It is a testament to the people you find at GBO.

We have had a good time developing this on a shoestring, and I hope as many folks as possible want to give it a try, the more the merrier. I'll be producing 223 Short brass for sale on a hobby basis, made from once fired brass, and I will be able to sell it for $7.50/25, $12.50/50 and $20.00/100 plus shipping. Remember when all brass was priced like that?

Stay tuned - the same Bat Time and the same Bat Channel...

I wish you all a Happy and Safe Thanksgiving. :D

Offline briannmilewis

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #131 on: January 30, 2013, 12:03:13 PM »
The custom production reamer from Pacific Tool & Gauge arrived today.


I will turn it around and ship to Larry.








Next on my list is the custom form and trim die from Redding. After that it will be a custom die set from Lee.

Offline jedman

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #132 on: January 30, 2013, 04:22:08 PM »
  Looks great Brian.     Good Luck,     Jed     :)
Current handi family, 24 ga./ 58 cal ,50-70,  45 smokeless MZ, 44 belted bodeen, 44 mag,.375 H&R (wildcat),375 Win.,357 max, .340 MF ( wildcat ), 8 mm Lebel, 8x57, .303 British, 270 x 57 R,(wildcat) 256 Win Mag, 2 x 243 Win,2 x 223 Rem. 7-30 Waters &20ga.,

Offline briannmilewis

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #133 on: February 04, 2013, 02:46:28 PM »
  Looks great Brian.     Good Luck,     Jed     :)
Could not have done it without you Jed. Will always be indebited to you for your participation abd validation of the idea. It'll be 3 years on Feb 10th when we officially started throwing around ideas on the forum.


Hey Shane, get back in touch, can still use you and your great work you did for us, and some more if you're willing.

Offline Spanky

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #134 on: February 05, 2013, 07:35:24 AM »
I finally put this one where it belongs... at the top.  ;)
Great work guys.
 
 
 
Spanky

Offline trotterlg

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #135 on: February 21, 2013, 05:39:02 PM »
First barrel with the factory reamer is done.  Savage threads, tiny bit over 23 inches long with an 11 degree target crown, parkerized finish.  I will ship it tomorrow.  Now just find some sort of Savage action with a .223 bolt head and you are all set.  Larry
A gun is just like a parachute, if you ever really need one, nothing else will do.

Offline trotterlg

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #136 on: February 22, 2013, 01:25:31 PM »
Put the first (factory reamer) barrel in the mail today, A Savage threaded sporter weight Remington a tiny bit over 23 inches long.  Larry
A gun is just like a parachute, if you ever really need one, nothing else will do.

Offline briannmilewis

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #137 on: February 28, 2013, 08:39:17 PM »
I finally put this one where it belongs... at the top.  ;)
Great work guys.
 
 
 
Spanky
Thanks for your encouragement...lots of folks have dropped in from time to time, that has helped me to keep going. The plan is to have my testing done by fall, so we can wrap up v1 and what it can do. I am going to get a custom form and trim die from Redding, and then full custom set of regular dies, from Lee I think. I want to be able to create bulk cases by fall so folks can borrow the reamer and get started with cases already prepped.


Got the barrel today... beautiful, if I may use such flowery language...

Offline Spanky

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #138 on: February 28, 2013, 09:11:36 PM »
No surprise there... Larry's work is always top notch. ;)
 
 
 
Spanky

Offline briannmilewis

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #139 on: March 20, 2013, 05:53:05 AM »
Here is the reamer drawing...



Offline yooper77

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Jeds latest update. I am blown away that Jed has managed to form 223 Short cases from 45 223 cases without a failure.

I have asked him to form some 221 FB cases so we can compare the neck thickness to the reformed 223 cases. New 223 cases are $20/100 and new 221 cases are $45/100. I expect that the 221 cases will form better with less neck thickness than the 223 cases.

Hi  Brian,   I ran 45  223 cases thru the die and got 100 % of them to form proprerly.
I think we should keep the necks approximately the same as other 223's also as you suggested.
Most have about .012 neck thickness, I personally don't like inside neck reaming to reduce the thickness.
I have done it before and my results were that I ended up with variable neck thickness and not concentric with the OD.
I beleive that if we turn the outside down to about
.247 and we will be right at the same dimention as the parent case was.
If you end up using a Lee collet sizing die it touches only the neck portion and has a mandrel down thru the case and is centered by the reprime pin being in the flashole during the sizing process.
Once you have fired your brass for the first time in your new chamber it should be very true and concentric.
If you want me to turn the necks let me know and when I get them done I will send you 40 - 45 finished cases to get started with.
I think once you have about 100 cases it should last you for at least 1000 shots if you are neck sizing them.     Jed



223 Remington     223 Short     221 Remington Fireball


I thought this cartridge looked familiar. The true 223 Short = 22 TCM?


"The TCM cartridge fires a 40 grain jacketed hollowpoint bullet at speeds exceeding 2000 feet-per-second (fps) from the muzzle of a five inch barrel."
http://www.gunblast.com/RockIsland-22TCM.htm


"The .22 TCM cartridge was originally the brainchild of custom gunsmith Fred Craig. The “.22 Micro-Mag,” as Craig called it"
http://www.shotgunnews.com/2013/01/09/smallbore-slabsides-rock-island-armory-22-tcm-review/

The pictures below referenced from this link.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,276548.0.html

yooper77

Offline briannmilewis

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #141 on: April 05, 2013, 08:16:48 PM »
We have seen these cartridges before, the difference is the goal was to fit the cartridge into existing magazines of pistols, the 223 Short is designed for rifles, and may end up being adapted to pistols, if someone can make a light weight but very strong action because of the 223 Short chamber pressures, expected to be just like 221 Fireball - as high as 50k psi.


To achieve fitting existing magazines (9mm) they leave the brass at .754" case length, compared to the 223 Short's 1.135". The case bodies are .391" in diameter, the 223 Short is 0.377".


The 223 Short can use 35g - 80g+ bullets. Overall Cartridge Length of the 223 Short with bullet is 1.635". The 22 TCM doesn't even come up to the top of the 221 FB case neck.


The 223 Short can kill a coyote at 300 yards, I think I read a little about adapting a rifle to use the 22 TCM.


These cartridges are different animals, and I applaud more people getting onto to the small & efficient cartridge band wagon.





Case Body Length - .806" 223 Short; 0.724" TCM
Shoulder Angle - 23º Both
Neck Length - 0.203" 223 Short; 0.167 22 TCM
Case Overall Length - 1.135" 223 Short; 1.020" TCM
Cartridge Overall Length - 1.635" (or longer if the throat is cut to a diff spec.); 1.275" TCM



A Thompson pistol can be chambered for the 223 Short using a blank barrel, so can any other bolt action rifle.


However, it will require a custom pistol design to make it into a semi-auto form factor.


I love talking about this stuff as we move ahead.


Offline rayv

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #142 on: April 18, 2013, 05:18:09 AM »
Hi, Brian.
   I've been following the development of the .223 Short, and I recently saw an article about the .22 TCM.  As I was reading the post previous to yours, I was thinking "but these are the differences between the TCM and the .223 Short" -- and you typed out what I thought of as the differences .... though you did so in a much more organized and coherent way than my thoughts. 


  I have greatly enjoyed reading about the development process, and I admire your dedication to the task, despite the setbacks you experienced with testing, finances, and other things.  I am interested in high-efficiency small cartridges (have a K-Hornet; want something that performs better).  Since your mention of a 30-degree shoulder version of the .223 Short, I have been mentally holding out for that one.  Sounds like a mini-.22BR to me.  :-)  I also think it's great that you planned ahead and wanted to use easily available brass and worked out a way to form it (relatively) easily.  Love the Harbor Freight chop saw pix.  And I DON'T want to be buying .221 Fireball brass in any quantity.


   I don't have the expertise needed to be a tester for you, but would like to contribute in some fashion.  What would work?  I can't really pre-buy a die set, as I would like the 30-degree version.  I imagine you long ago sold (sorry you had to do that!) the Beretta .22.  Would it help any if I bought some formed brass, or may I just make a Paypal contribution to the cause? 


Thanks to Brian, and the rest of the folks involved in the development and testing. 


Offline yooper77

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Re: The 223 Short project
« Reply #143 on: April 22, 2013, 12:17:53 PM »
We have seen these cartridges before, the difference is the goal was to fit the cartridge into existing magazines of pistols, the 223 Short is designed for rifles, and may end up being adapted to pistols, if someone can make a light weight but very strong action because of the 223 Short chamber pressures, expected to be just like 221 Fireball - as high as 50k psi.


To achieve fitting existing magazines (9mm) they leave the brass at .754" case length, compared to the 223 Short's 1.135". The case bodies are .391" in diameter, the 223 Short is 0.377".


The 223 Short can use 35g - 80g+ bullets. Overall Cartridge Length of the 223 Short with bullet is 1.635". The 22 TCM doesn't even come up to the top of the 221 FB case neck.


The 223 Short can kill a coyote at 300 yards, I think I read a little about adapting a rifle to use the 22 TCM.


These cartridges are different animals, and I applaud more people getting onto to the small & efficient cartridge band wagon.


A Thompson pistol can be chambered for the 223 Short using a blank barrel, so can any other bolt action rifle.


However, it will require a custom pistol design to make it into a semi-auto form factor.


I love talking about this stuff as we move ahead.


I applaud you, Its hard to design a really new wildcat that hasn't been thought of already years ago. I know you put a lot into your 223 Short, but really its not much of a difference between the venerable 221 Fireball and 22 TCM.

The 22 TCM is an awesome little cartridge able to fit into the non-custom Rock Island Armory semi auto pistol and now the new 2013 Rock Island Armory bolt action rifle. 22 TCM dies are available and articles on cutting down 223 Remington makes it very inexpressive. Rifle data shows 22 TCM with 40 grain bullet at 2,800 FPS which is a fully capable coyote round out to 300 yards.

http://www.gunblast.com/RockIsland-22TCM.htm

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/01/14/rock-island-armory-previews-new-tcm-22-bolt-action-rifle-at-shot-show/

http://keystoneweapon.com/Keystoneweapon/Reloading/Entries/2012/12/10_22TCM.html

Adapting the 22 TCM into a single shot platform like the Thompson Center Contender or T/C Encore would be easy, but hardly an viable option in my eyes.  T/C single shot rifle/pistol have an unlimited cartridge length, so the 223 Remington is perfect. The 22 Hornet is also a T/C factory offering if you want less velocity.Two others are stellar cartridges 222 Remington and 221 Fireball for custom barrels. Of course a 22 TCM custom barrel for the right price would be fun as well.

My daughter uses a T/C Encore rifle in 223 Remington for deer using my hand loads of H-4895 and Nosler 60 grain Partition which achieves 3000 FPS and devastating on deer under 100 yards. I have also downloaded the 223 Remington to 22 Hornet velocities with IMR-4227 and 40 grain bullets for fun small game hunting.

yooper77

Offline briannmilewis

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #144 on: May 15, 2013, 08:17:01 PM »
I have been out of the wildcat loop for such a long time that I missed the Hornady 17 Hornet introduction.


The 17 Hornet may be the one to beat, we shall have to see after this season's testing.


Competition can only produce better results for the consumer.

Offline briannmilewis

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Which software produced these drawings?
« Reply #145 on: May 17, 2013, 06:27:54 PM »
I have been looking all over and can't find any similar drawings. I've emailed Shane but I am not counting on him to reply.







Offline briannmilewis

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #146 on: May 28, 2013, 03:04:52 PM »
Shane is back in touch and he is a CAD guy so he just uses AutoCAD for his cartridge drawings. I am exploring MacDraft so we shall see.

Offline briannmilewis

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #147 on: June 19, 2013, 07:04:03 PM »
20000 views! Wow, that must be some kind of record.

Offline briannmilewis

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #148 on: June 19, 2013, 07:05:47 PM »
I have settled on a Savage Axis Left-Hand 223 to put the 223 Short barrel on. I should be able to get one for about $257, appears to be the going rate.

Offline geezerbiker

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #149 on: February 23, 2014, 08:44:55 AM »
After this is all worked out, I'll likely sell my Ruger 77-22 K-Hornet to build one of these on a Savage Axis like you're doing.  Keep up the good work...

Tony