Author Topic: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping...Update  (Read 2259 times)

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Offline Bull1899

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T/C Renegade .54 not grouping...Update
« on: February 18, 2010, 07:37:47 AM »
 Hey guys I'm new to the forum and have a question. I have a T/C .54 Renegade that is blowing one big hole in the middle of the patch. The groups at 25 yards off bags is 4"-6" which as you know is terrible. I'm using a .010  T/C lubed patch and a .530 Hornaday round ball in front of 60-90-grains of 777. Any suggestions?...thanks for any replies...bull

Offline Bigeasy

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2010, 08:24:19 AM »
Your load sounds like a good basic load, similar to what I use.  Here is a couple of things I would look at-  The 777 powder.  I have never used it, always using BP or Pyrodex, so that may be a contributor to your problem.  When you seat your ball, is it easy to seat, or does it take some pressure?  If it is real easy, you might want to try a thicker patch.  Are you seating the ball firmly on the powder charge?  Twist rate - a slow twist, like 1 in 66 works better for ball.  1 in 48 is about as fast as you should go and still get good accuracy.  You might want to swab out your barrel between shots with 777, something not needed with Pyrodex and a properly natural lubed patch.  Accuracy often deteriorates with heavy charges when shooting round ball, but your 60 to 90 grain range sounds good.

Larry
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Offline Bull1899

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2010, 08:37:57 AM »
Thanks for the reply Larry...Just wanted to add that my 14 year old son uses 777 in his Traditions sidelock. He has been using it for 6 years with a patched round ball in .50 cal. Would using it in a .54 cal be different? When I seat the ball it is fairly tight and I bounce the rod a little off the charge. I also tried a thicker patch with the same results...thanks again.

Offline Bigeasy

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2010, 08:49:42 AM »
The only other thing I can think of is there a lack of lube on the patches?  That may be causing them to burn thru.  If they were ripped or torn, I might thing a rough spot in the rifling, but burned out in the center, I would think indicates too much heat (or not enough lube to prevent the burning).  Maybe try another brand of patch, or type of patch material.  Try re-lubing the patches you have now with bore butter, or a similar natural lube.  A little lube on the patch wont hurt the powder charge, and helps keep the fouling soft, and you shots consistent.  Good Luck

Larry
Personal opinion is a good thing, and everyone is entitled to one.  The hard part is separating informed opinion from someone who is just blowing hot air....

Offline flintlock

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2010, 10:05:20 AM »
Bull...Welcome to graybeard...

There are 3-4 reasons why patches burn through in a muzzleloader...
Rough or pitted bore...Poor crown, which actually cuts the patch when loaded...Too much powder, or using a hotter than normal powder like 777...Too thin of a patch...Using a patch with poly or one that isn't cotton or linen...Poor lube in the patch...New barrel which has sharp lands so it cuts the patch and old lubed patches were the oil breaks down the cotton fiber...

Guess that's more than 3-4...:)

First, change patching...I've seen patches burn through that were prelubed, usually when they get older...Go to WalMart and buy 100% cotton pillow ticking...It comes in blue or red stripes and costs about $4-5 bucks a yard...While at WalMart, pick up a can of SnoSeal, for waterproofing boots...It is a blend of beeswax and oil to soften the bees wax and also makes a good patch lube...

Now...Cut or strip a 1 1/2 inch strip of the ticking...Get a putty knife and lay the stripping on an old newspaper...With the putty knife spread the SnoSeal over the ticking, on both sides...Roll this into a ball, put on paper plate and microwave for 20 seconds or so on high...This helps the lube spread through the ticking and the excess will flow out and on to the plate...

Now, you have several options as to how to use this patching...You can charge the gun with powder, lay the ball over the ticking, push the ball down just below the muzzle, pull up the ticking over the ball and cut with a sharp knife...You can do the same with a ball block or you can cut into square patches and load as you do now...

If changing patching doesn't solve the problem, I'd get real black powder and use...I know some shooters do fine with a prb and 777 but I've heard from many that don't...I think it has to do with patching material, charge used and ball/patch to barrel fit...

If you change patching and powder and still are burning through patches then you have a barrel or crown problem...

Have fun!!!

Offline k

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2010, 02:41:42 PM »
in my opinion 777 is pretty hard on patches,i started using bore buttons under the prb and the problem was gone

Offline Bull1899

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2010, 04:04:43 PM »
Thanks K, I will try that also...bull

Offline necchi

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2010, 04:48:23 PM »
There's sompthin goin on,,I use 18-24 thous. material for patching in a 54 renegade and don't have too much trouble getting the prb down. I use t7 almost exclusivley. A 10 patch is mighty thin. Had the boy using a 15 and his groups were not tight, he finally switched over to cut at the muzzle, dry lubed, .024 denum and he's wining matches.

good advise above,,if you are going to try a button, lots of things can be used,, your limited by your imagination,, Bee's nest, a wad of grass or leaves, a couple of extra patches stuffed over the powder/under the prb
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Offline coyotejoe

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2010, 04:47:06 AM »
Those pre-cut, pre-lubed patches have a limited shelf life befor the lube begins to break down the fibers.
 I started muzzleloading in the 1950's when you just couldn't buy all the stuff they sell today. I learned to cut my patches at the muzzle because there just wasn't any other option, that's the way it was done. Now that I could buy pre-cuts I can't think of any reason to do so. It's by far the most expensive way to patch and there is no convenience either. I find that by the time I open the zip lock bag, pull out some patches, seperate one from the stack, return the rest and reseal the bag, pick off the loose threads, carefully center it over the muzzle, place a ball on it and check that it is still centered, I could have cut my patch at the muzzle, rammed it down and be ready to prime. As for lube, for range shooting or rendezvous shoots nothing beats spit, which is another thing I learned early.
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline necchi

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2010, 06:25:44 AM »
++ to joe,,
 good point on the shelf life. I use the Dutch Shoultz method and although he personally say's with his method patch can keep for years, I make freash each season, many times make new stuff just a week or so before a match.
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Offline deadrabbit

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2010, 04:40:49 PM »
I'm not sure about the spit, Joe, but you brought back flashbacks for me to the late 70's/early 80's when hardly anything was available for shooting.  I used jean material, cant remember my lube,  cut it at the barrel and it all worked (I was just plinkin' as I was kinda young) but it worked fine.  I was happy with it and didn't know any better.  I hit my targets so it was fine.

Maybe I need to step back a little. :D 

Offline Ron T.

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2010, 02:54:19 AM »
I found my .50 caliber flintlock rifle's accuracy improved when I began using the circumference of the "ball" on the end of my short starter to knock the rifle ball down below the top edge of the barrel with the patch material under the ball in a strip... then I cut the patch at the muzzle with a very sharp knife.

By NOT putting the ball so far down the muzzle, there's less patching material left out in front of the rifle ball when you cut the patch off at the rifle's muzzle when the rifle ball is just BARELY below the rifle's muzzle.  In fact, as I now do it, there's a small round part of the face of the rifle ball where I can still see the lead after I cut off the patching material (.016 denim with a .490" rifle ball).  

My theory is/was that this extra patching material out in front of the rifle ball tended to "bunch-up" as the ball traveled up the barrel which resulted in that extra "bunched-up" patch material tending to "tip" the ball slightly as it left the muzzle... much the same as a "bad" muzzle crown would do.

Then, too... I never "trusted" the factory to add the correct amount of lube to the patch and, as pointed out by others here, that lube gets old as the pre-lubed patch sits on the shelf... and who knows how long it's been sitting there?  For those reasons alone, I lube my own patches in a strip and cut off the patch at the muzzle.

A great many BP shooters each have their own "special formula" for patch lubrication... talk to 100 of 'em and you'll find there's 80 or 90 different recommendations for a lube.  The pioneers and mountain men probably used saliva most of the time and a good many modern BP shooters still use it.  I've heard "good" and "bad" about Bore Butter as well as 'most other standard factory lubes.  Some swear by 'em and some swear AT 'em.    ;D

Generally, I've found that BP shooters are some of the most opinionated people on earth and each is sure HIS or HER way is the ONLY way to do it right!!!  That's not a condemnation of BP shooters 'cause the vast majority of 'em are wonderfully honest, helpful people... but they sure hold STRONG convictions!

But like many of the others here, I'd recommend you find a good lube that others have had good luck with and give it a try.  I'd also recommend you use ONLY "cut-at-the-muzzle" patches.  For a .54 caliber, I'd leave the strips of patch cloth 2-inches wide so that there's never any doubt you have plenty of width to work with so that if you happen to get the rifle ball a little off the center of the patch material or the bore, there's still enough material to insure a "good" patch that fully encompasses the ball.

If it's hard to push your patched ball down a CLEAN barrel, I'd recommend you go to a slightly (.001" or .002") thinner patching material. The patched ball should NOT go down the barrel EASILY, but it shouldn't take a great amount of force to push the patched ball down a CLEAN or almost clean barrel.

If you've got a new barrel, it may take a few hundred shots to break in that new barrel.  Some say it will take "500 shots", some say "100 shots"... I dunno, but there generally IS a "break-in" period.

I use FFFg Swiss black powder for my "target" load... can't use triple 7 in a flinter, so I can't comment on whether or not the 777 shoots "dirty".  As previously suggested, you might try giving your rifle's bore a quick cleaning after EACH shot... or after every TWO shots... or after every THREE shots... or whatever.  A great deal depends on the individual rifle's barrel.

You might even try regular black powder... Goex or Swiss... they may not "crud" your rifle's bore up as bad as 777... IF 777 is causing a crudy-bore problem.

For a "target" load in your .54 caliber, I'd start at 50 grains of Swiss or 55 grains of Goex and work up from there in 2 or 3 grain increments.  The "Rule-of-Thumb" when using Goex and/or Swiss black powder is to reduce your Goex load by 10% for similar results with a Swiss powder load.  I've found that 5 grain increments are sometimes a bit too big an increment and you can by-pass "THE" perfect load without ever shooting it.  Shoot 3-shots at the target, cleaning your bore after EACH shot and then, increase the amount of powder used to the next higher increment.  If you put all three rifle balls on top of one another in the target, then shoot a 5 shot group using the same powder charge.  If they also make a nice, tight little group, you've "found" your "target" load.  WRITE IT DOWN!!!

When you eventually find "THE" most accurate load, then stop cleaning after EACH shot and see what happens to your accuracy.  You may find you can shoot 5 shots before cleaning... or even 10 shots.  But you may also find you need to clean the bore after EACH shot... or each TWO shots.  Your rifle will "tell" you what it wants!

Velocity isn't as important as accuracy, especially if you're shooting "paper" targets.  However, you need enough velocity to make a good kill on game animals.  But, again, placing the shot in the "kill zone" is essential and so, accuracy is still "king" with velocity coming in 2nd place.

Besides that, a round rifle ball sheds velocity very quickly... and so, a rifle ball that starts out at 1900 fps will be down on half of that velocity within a short distance (possibly 50 yards)... so don't sacrifice accuracy for velocity.  You will find that your rifle will give you TWO "accuracy zones"... one at a lower velocity for shooting paper and one at a higher velocity for shooting game.  Once you find BOTH of those loads, you have your "target" load and your "hunting" load.

Again... your rifle will "tell" you when you've found those loads because it will put all your rifle balls in one small area of the target.

Now... if you go through all of this and you're still not getting good accuracy... there's two possibilities left... either your barrel has a problem (bad crown, etc.) or YOU have a problem (flinching, etc.)... but don't forget that too thick or too thin a patch... or too much or too little lube... or lube your rifle's barrel doesn't like can ALL cause inaccuracy.  You just have to figure out which of all these items is the culrpit !  ;)

As you see, I am just like everyone else... I have my own "opinions" and I'm sure they're right!!!  Hahahahahahaha...  ;D  

Ok... 'nuff said... have fun and make good smoke !!!   ;)


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."  - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Hopalong7

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2010, 04:09:18 AM »
     And, that's the way it is....all those variables.....But, if it weren't so we wouldn't have near as much fun talking about it!
     BTW, I recently tried 777(fffg) in my .32caliber.  First time for this powder with prb in any caliber let alone a quirky little 32.  Set the measure on 35, .310 ball with .015" pillow ticking soaked in moose milk(Murphy's Oil soap, die cutting oil, and hot water).  Results were very good. Good accuracy, shot 15-20 shots with 1 spit, 1 dry patch in between shots.  The later shots seemed to load just like the first ones.  Subsequint clean-up was minimal and easy(I use alcohol and Ballistol).  In general, I was impressed with 777 in my little side lock.
     BTW II, Well said Ron T.  I also use the radius of the short starter ball to seat with.  Reguardless of caliber, it seats the ball just deep enough for the patch knife to clear it.
Walt  :D

Offline necchi

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2010, 05:30:56 AM »
Well said Ron T, thanks for taking the time,
 That is what it takes Bull1899, it's all about isolating one variable at a time and consistancy.

 In my humble opinion, and with respect, the extra patch above the ball makes little differance, Ron has a sound theory, but I believe the simple mass of the patch material vrs the mass of the ball and that nano second of contact at the muzzle exit + oburation of the pure lead ball play factor.
 And I tried it. Out too 100 a tight cut vrs up too a 1/4" above the muzzle made no measurable differance in my groups.

However,if taking care at that point lends confidence to the shooter, it WILL make a differance.

p.s. after thought;
  I should add that in a barter, I had a gentelman with machine skills, make a custom short starter for 2 of my guns, the brass ball seater and rod have each have the exact radius of my ball,,535 and 490, that factor could account for my not seeing a differance
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Offline Bull1899

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2010, 09:10:45 AM »
Thanks for the responses guys , as soon as the weather clears up a little I'm gonna try it again...thanks again....bull

Offline wmurrell

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2010, 09:16:38 AM »
I have to agree with necchi's first post , too thin patch
FWIW My 54 New Englander (same 1:48 twist) blew .012 patches, switched to .015 with a .530 RB and It will 1 hole 3 shots at 50 yds w/ 80 gr T7

Offline Bull1899

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping..UPDATE
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2010, 08:23:21 AM »
All right guys finally got to the range today and wow what a day. I tried some .54 cal wads in front of my powder and behind my pb. I was using 70 grains of 777 on two targets  and 70 grains of FFG on the third. Shots were at 25 yards off the bags and  open sights on the Renegade (yes I do wear glasses). The patches after the shot were normal. The first two targets are 5 shots and the last was 4 shots. I think I'm gonna like this one....thanks again to all who responded..bull

 

Offline Semisane

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2010, 09:18:50 AM »
Now look at what you went and done to yourself Bull.   :D  How are you ever going to get over the addiction if you keep feeding it like that?   ;D ;D

Good job finding the solution, and good shooting.  I use wads under patched balls in both my .54 Renegade and .54 Great Plains.  They really made a difference for me too.
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Offline flintlock

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2010, 10:32:16 AM »
Wait till you see what that .530 ball does to a deer...:)

Offline necchi

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2010, 05:58:30 AM »
Sweet! ;D
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Offline rzwieg

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping...Update
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2010, 08:23:25 PM »
I had the same trouble.

With Clearshot powder I was getting 3" groups from a TC .50 but switched to 2f black and that improved things alot.

Offline leadbutt

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping...Update
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2010, 02:59:24 AM »
I have printed out this thread, sure have enjoyed reading through it, all so have a 54 left handed TC, and have just got back to playing with it, most of my shooting is with my 8 bore, when I started back in the 60's an old boy told me about using wasp nest over powder under patch, it worked well, but hated looking for paper wasp nest  ;), Used to make my own lube using the old fashion toilet bowl seal ring, under stand not so good now a days due to synthetic oil in them.

On the 8 bore I finally got to using a ball that was pre wrapped in a .15 patch,I tie a string around the top of the patch,once the ball is centered, turn it over and super glue a 20 ga felt wad to the bottom, once it sets then I dip the whole shebang in bee's wax and let dry. Time consuming but it cuts down on reload time and follow up shots.

Still have several of the polymer round ball cups, may have to play with those
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Offline Bull1899

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Re: T/C Renegade .54 not grouping...Update
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2010, 09:09:25 AM »
That sounds interesting LB I might have to give that a try. I plan on using my Renegade for elk hunting this year in Colorado....thanks again guys...bull